321 replies to this topic

[H I A S]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

I for one, welcome the return of our Dragon Slayer overlords.

Yes pls! My DS is so rusty

Edited by arivio, 10 May 2016 - 02:00 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well don't forget the Alpha reduction will cause the unintentional effect to resurect poptarters and hill humpers. And because they should not exist we will see JumpJets reduced so that you will need 10ton of jets just to jump over a fence - of course PPC and ACs will see some decoupling - so PPCs might fly with 300m/s across the battlefield.... creating 20heat

[Rogue Jedi]

In my opinion, in a 1v1 match with roughly equal Mechs then yes time to kill is fine, usualy at between 30 and 90 seconds however this game rairly has 1v1 fights with anything approaching equal Mechs. in my opinion focus fire is the issue here, with 4+ Mechs focusing fire on one it is highly unlikely that the 1 will survive more than 15 seconds, that is the issue here.

I would love for the team to be scattered, dropped over the entire map, nearer the closest comparable enemy Mech than allies to encourage 1v1 fighting, perhaps convert skirmish ^{(my least favourite game mode)} to something like that, or create an "orbital insertion" or "destroyed dropship" game mode.

[Meathook]

Anyone saying MWO is just COD with Mechs must be oblivious about one of those games. Or both. Or games in general...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Karl Streiger, on 10 May 2016 - 02:24 AM, said:

Well don't forget the Alpha reduction will cause the unintentional effect to resurect poptarters and hill humpers. And because they should not exist we will see JumpJets reduced so that you will need 10ton of jets just to jump over a fence - of course PPC and ACs will see some decoupling - so PPCs might fly with 300m/s across the battlefield.... creating 20heat

be funny as hell if they go TT 10 sec fire global CD to reduce alpha... which would make it worse XD

[DiGCliff]

Variant1, on 08 May 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

no ttk is short all we need to do is remove all quirks(except structure), bingo bango.

So very true!

Edited by DiGCliff, 10 May 2016 - 06:14 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Aresye, on 09 May 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

It's not going to be an extra 5s in a 1v12 because most groups will just simply switch to dakka and PPFLD based builds. TTK will remain the same, despite the overall firepower rating dropping much lower.

Remember back during the poptarting days? How long did you last against groups carrying 30pt alphas? Answer: It was actually lower TTK back then than it is now.

Hitscan weapons and laser durations, by their very nature, increase TTK. Take those out of the equation with a convoluted power draw mechanic and watch as shorter TTK, PPFLD metas rule the game again.

I'm sure that's what this community wants though. They tend to whine and whine until they get exactly what they ask for, and then whine more when they find out how terrible it is.

This. There is nothing PGI can do to increase TTK across the board without disproportionately affecting the player base. Any mechanics it uses will negatively impact the lower skill brackets and especially new players, widening the gap between the "elites" and the average players.

On top of that, there have been way too many cases of the community whining for stuff, getting it, and then begging for it to be fixed back to the way it was because they realized their stupidity too late. This is one of those instances. TTK isn't an issue in MWO if the players are smart. I posted a video of me in an Atlas lasting 30 seconds under withering fire from six different Mechs. The reason was because I maintained movement, shielded effectively, and utilized the scant cover that was available along with the terrain to put my enemies at disadvantaged firing positions. Most players will just stand there though and expect their Mech to tank all the damage; they're unrealistic. They then come whine about TTK being too short because they were too arrogant or stupid to make an effort to extend their TTK. They want a safety net to save them from their own shortcomings.

This isn't even about "get gud" so much as it is about understanding the most basic principles of BattleMech combat and then practicing them. A pilot who won't use cover or torso twist is a pilot who won't go very far in any game.

Karl Streiger, on 10 May 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

and the Power Draw Ghost Heat thing - for everything including AC20+SRMs too - so no way to counter the sniping

Shoot no! There's no reason for it to impact ballistics (with the exception of Gauss) or missiles! It should only impact weapon systems that actually rely on the Mech's powerplant for power. That includes all energy weapons and the Gauss, since the Gauss relies on the powerplant to charge its capacitors. Nothing else should be affected by power draw, especially the much maligned AC/20 and the lousy hit-reg SRMs.

[Alan Davion]

Meathook, on 10 May 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

Anyone saying MWO is just COD with Mechs must be oblivious about one of those games. Or both. Or games in general...

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

This. There is nothing PGI can do to increase TTK across the board without disproportionately affecting the player base. Any mechanics it uses will negatively impact the lower skill brackets and especially new players, widening the gap between the "elites" and the average players.

On top of that, there have been way too many cases of the community whining for stuff, getting it, and then begging for it to be fixed back to the way it was because they realized their stupidity too late. This is one of those instances. TTK isn't an issue in MWO if the players are smart. I posted a video of me in an Atlas lasting 30 seconds under withering fire from six different Mechs. The reason was because I maintained movement, shielded effectively, and utilized the scant cover that was available along with the terrain to put my enemies at disadvantaged firing positions. Most players will just stand there though and expect their Mech to tank all the damage; they're unrealistic. They then come whine about TTK being too short because they were too arrogant or stupid to make an effort to extend their TTK. They want a safety net to save them from their own shortcomings.

This isn't even about "get gud" so much as it is about understanding the most basic principles of BattleMech combat and then practicing them. A pilot who won't use cover or torso twist is a pilot who won't go very far in any game.

The problem I find is, when it comes to "new" players, and this is directed mostly at Meathook, but also somewhat plays into what Nightmare1 is saying. Most of them are coming off games like... Can you guess what I'm going to say next?

That's right... CoD.

They will charge in, guns blazing, and just get insta-ganked, and then get pissed because they can't respawn like they can in CoD so they can't come around from a different part of the map.

They won't care at all about the lore behind BT/MW, they just want run around, shoot stuff and watch the pretty explosions. This is not that kind of game, but it's being slowly pushed in that direction.

And that is the last thing we need to happen to this game.

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Shoot no! There's no reason for it to impact ballistics (with the exception of Gauss) or missiles! It should only impact weapon systems that actually rely on the Mech's powerplant for power. That includes all energy weapons and the Gauss, since the Gauss relies on the powerplant to charge its capacitors. Nothing else should be affected by power draw, especially the much maligned AC/20 and the lousy hit-reg SRMs.

Wait, so you think limiting lasers to a 30 point max alpha, but allowing ACs to do whatever they like wont just force every single (big mech) build to be Dakka? You can get up to 20-30 point dakka ALPHAS (more when considering Clan Dakka), which you can then spam for almost no heat faster than once per second. How are hot lasers going to cope when they cant out alpha the dakka? Hint: they aren't. To make up for their heat and long cooldown lasers MUST be able to put out a considerably larger burst than dakka, or its just crap in comparison (unless you are terrible and can only hit with hitscan weapons.. )

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 May 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Alan Davion, on 10 May 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The problem I find is, when it comes to "new" players, and this is directed mostly at Meathook, but also somewhat plays into what Nightmare1 is saying. Most of them are coming off games like... Can you guess what I'm going to say next?

That's right... CoD.

They will charge in, guns blazing, and just get insta-ganked, and then get pissed because they can't respawn like they can in CoD so they can't come around from a different part of the map.

They won't care at all about the lore behind BT/MW, they just want run around, shoot stuff and watch the pretty explosions. This is not that kind of game, but it's being slowly pushed in that direction.

And that is the last thing we need to happen to this game.

Then they'll learn. The game is complicated at the moment, but still intuitive. You only really have to worry about weapon recharge and heat gauge. Adding in other, more complicated systems makes it harder for new pilots to assimilate though. In the end, it doesn't increase their TTK either; it just drives them away. Players these days will download the game, play the Tutorial, and then go fight a half-dozen to a dozen rounds to see if they like it. If they grasp the concepts, they'll stick around to play and improve. If the game appears to be unnecessarily complex, then they'll just leave and go play something else.

TTK at the moment is just fine. Like I showed previously, a TTK of 30 seconds, while being fired upon by six different Mechs, is very good! TTK for 1v1 ranges from 40 seconds to 90 seconds, depending on pilot skill, Mechs, and terrain.Those are also good TTKs. The problem isn't TTK itself so much as it is pilots not understanding the basic, core concepts of MWO and then being unwilling to admit their error. Pilots who lack understanding, but attempt to self-improve, usually wind up boosting their TTK and bettering their MWO experience. Pilots who immediately default to the "It's PGI's fault" escape clause usually just get stuck in a rut.

That's why I'm saying that making MWO more complicated, in an attempt to extend TTK, will have an adverse effect. If pilots already have problems with the core concepts and mechanics, then adding in more such convolutions won't do anything to help them. It will just exacerbate the problem and make it worse. It would be better for PGI to continue to improve their Tutorial and add in different game modes and objectives. Right now, every game mode favors death balls, which hurts unskilled or new players gives TTK the appearance of being too low (teamwork is OP). Adding in game modes that favor group fragmentation would go a long way towards improving the game play quality for everyone and would also boost TTK without resorting to complicated mechanics. Scout Mode is a good step in that direction. What would be better, is a Domination mode where there are six control zones widely scattered across the map. The teams have 3 minutes to run down 15 second timers on each zone. Suddenly, speed and individual combat are important. Teams can't simply deathball through the map because there is no time. TTK goes up because you no longer have firing lines of 6+ Mechs focusing on single targets.

What this game needs, is not ridiculous nerfs or some new, complicated system to boost TTK. It needs pilots to understand and use the basic fighting principles of MechWarrior. It needs game modes that de-emphasizes the total annihilation of the enemy team, while emphasizing other objectives like capture or protect. The capture and protect missions we have now are fun, but they still are all too often just a quirky Skirmish match. PGI can continue to improve them, or add in new game modes; both are viable means of boosting TTK.

[CDLord HHGD]

Screw it. Just double armor and internals again (for a total of x4) and be done with it. It's another simple band-aid half-assed solution that I'm pretty sure PGI can appreciate.

[Alan Davion]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 10 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Screw it. Just double armor and internals again (for a total of x4) and be done with it. It's another simple band-aid half-assed solution that I'm pretty sure PGI can appreciate.

That's about the only sensible thing PGI could do.

Which is exactly why they won't do it.

Seriously, can nothing ever again be simple and straightforward in this game?

[Nightmare1]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 May 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

Wait, so you think limiting lasers to a 30 point max alpha, but allowing ACs to do whatever they like wont just force every single build to be Dakka? You can get up to 20 point dakka ALPHAS (more when considering Clan Dakka), which you can then spam for almost no heat faster than once per second. How are hot lasers going to cope when they cant out alpha the dakka? Hint: they aren't. To make up for their heat and long cooldown lasers MUST be able to put out a considerably larger burst than dakka, or its just crap in comparison (unless you are terrible and can only hit with hitscan weapons.. )

I never said that it wouldn't force them to run dakka. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Consider this: Ballistics are heavy and ammunition limited. They also have projectile velocities and bullet drop. They are a lot more difficult to use than lasers. They don't need a limiter in the form of a reactor power draw. In addition, it doesn't make any realistic sense to give them one. They're ballistics. I don't have to hook a battery up to my rifle when I fire it. I just lever a round into the chamber and squeeze the trigger.

If the power draw is implemented like I suggest, then PGI can remove ballistic quirks from the game. That would counterbalance the dakka you so fear. Ballistics right now, have very impressive quirks on a lot of Mechs to eliminate or decrease their projectile drop, to boost their firing rates and ranges, and to decrease the heat they generate or their UAC jam chance. If these are all removed, then ballistics go back to being slower, more ponderous weapons that take a certain degree of skill to use. The Clans may be able to boat them more effectively, but it's still very easy to spread the damage. The IS may have their pinpoint still, but they have to juggle the fast projectile drop, the likes of which does not hinder the Clans.

Under your system, the AC/20 + 3MLs HBK-4G would bite the dust. That's actually a very reasonable build for that Mech and not one that needs nerfing. The AC/20 has a very slow rate of fire without quirks. Having 35 points of damage would make it one of the most powerful Mediums on the IS side, but it would sacrifice a great amount of speed to do so, settling for that Standard 200 or 220. It's a trade-off, but it fills a niche roll perfectly. My system would enable it to fill that niche roll, while bringing other Mechs more in line with it. Centurions would still be quick skirmishers. Shadowhawks would start reappearing with SRM or ballisitic loadouts. We would start seeing more Trebs and Enforcers while Blackjacks would decrease a little. Light Mechs would become a bit more uniform in terms of firepower, and would be forced into a scout role instead of a brawling role. SRM based Lights would not disappear though, as they likely would under your system. Under my system, Dragons, Quickdraws, and Cataphracts would flourish again, on par with the current chassis.

You can't just make a broad, sweeping change like "limit all alphas regardless of weapon type," and then expect that the game will be able to absorb that and be okay. You have to consider the consequences.

Under my system, a BLR-1G would be able to run 2xAC/5s with 6 MLs. Let power draw act like heat, in the sense that your Mech shuts down if you exceed your limit. If energy-based alphas are limited to 30 points, then I cannot fire all 6 MLs at once. I have to stagger fire them, with my rate of fire dependent on my BLRs power draw recharge. That means that, even though I have a 40 point alpha, I am likely only putting out about 30 or 35 points of damage at one time. That's very reasonable.

My HBK-4G example can put out 35 points of damage without running over its power draw. Over time, like with heat, it may peak to the point where I have to start chain-firing my lasers. However, the HBK would be able to be the cool running, slow, powerful Medium that it was meant to be.

Mechs like the Jager, which do boat ballistics, wouldn't fire as fast as they do now, or as accurately, without their quirks. UAC Jagers would jam much more frequently. However, they would still see a small resurgence since they would be a cool-running alternative to the TDR-5SS.

That's my point; let power draw affect only those weapons that need to draw power, and remove all the ballistics quirks. Decrease missile quirks somewhat, but do leave a few; hit reg on them is so buggy still that some residual quirks are needed for balancing. Run this on the PTS and see what the community says. Simple.

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 10 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Screw it. Just double armor and internals again (for a total of x4) and be done with it. It's another simple band-aid half-assed solution that I'm pretty sure PGI can appreciate.

Actually, that wouldn't be all that bad and may be the best solution (K.I.S.S. Method). Pilots would sacrifice tonnage for armor, which would decrease alphas while increasing their hitpoints. TTK goes up, problem solved!

[davoodoo]

Alan Davion, on 10 May 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Seriously, can nothing ever again be simple and straightforward in this game?

After double armor?? yea i guess they already figured out it doesnt work.

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Under your system

Slight misunderstanding here - i don't want power draw, at all - i think we are fine right now, with some minor stat tweaks to specific weapons. (and ideally a complete rework of streaks and lrms, but still)

edit: Id also like to see a return to more specific quirking, to promote build variation between different mechs/variants. I dont really care that it pigeon-holes mechs into specific weapons, since the mechs are often kinda built around that weapon from the design stage, so it kinda makes lore sense.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 May 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 May 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Slight misunderstanding here - i don't want power draw, at all - i think we are fine right now, with some minor stat tweaks to specific weapons. (and major buffs to LBXs, MGs and ideally a complete rework of streaks and lrms, but still)

Oh, in that case, we think alike. Personally, I don't really want power draw either, but I figure that we'll probably get stuck with it anyways.

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Oh, in that case, we think alike. Personally, I don't really want power draw either, but I figure that we'll probably get stuck with it anyways.

I hope not. I'm concerned that any system PGI designs is going to do one of two very bad things: either make dakka the only option for large mechs if they don't want to be laughed out of the room, or obsolete large mechs entirely by removing their ability to project more firepower than smaller mechs (which is their only actual reason for existing, since the extra armour does not in any way make up for being slower/less agile and having bigger hitboxes).

Its quite hard to come up with a power draw system that doesnt do either of those things, and even in the perfect implentation, it still kills certain low podspace clan Omnis, like the Executioner, which basically have no alternative to running LPL/ERML vomit.

edit: it might work out ok if a power draw system was worked with values that wouldn't make ballistics OP, and was also tied to chassis tonnage so that more tonnage = more power draw cap.. maybe.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 May 2016 - 10:06 AM.

[Meathook]

Alan Davion, on 10 May 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

The problem I find is, when it comes to "new" players, and this is directed mostly at Meathook, but also somewhat plays into what Nightmare1 is saying. Most of them are coming off games like... Can you guess what I'm going to say next?

That's right... CoD.

They will charge in, guns blazing, and just get insta-ganked, and then get pissed because they can't respawn like they can in CoD so they can't come around from a different part of the map.

They won't care at all about the lore behind BT/MW, they just want run around, shoot stuff and watch the pretty explosions. This is not that kind of game, but it's being slowly pushed in that direction.

And that is the last thing we need to happen to this game.

The problem is people overdramatify problems. ARMA doesnt't become CoD if you play a gamemode with respawns, its still ARMA. This is still far away from CoD, as you said yourself, new players will learn this immediately. The problem that teamplay is OP will still prevail, even with higher TTK. You will just have double the time to look at flashy explosions in your face and watch your paperdolls apart while you can't do much about it. Getting ganked by an overwhelming force will not end well.

[Nightmare1]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 May 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

I hope not. I'm concerned that any system PGI designs is going to do one of two very bad things: either make dakka the only option for large mechs if they don't want to be laughed out of the room, or obsolete large mechs entirely by removing their ability to project more firepower than smaller mechs (which is their only actual reason for existing, since the extra armour does not in any way make up for being slower/less agile and having bigger hitboxes).

Its quite hard to come up with a power draw system that doesnt do either of those things, and even in the perfect implentation, it still kills certain low podspace clan Omnis, like the Executioner, which basically have no alternative to running LPL/ERML vomit.

Yep! Frankly, doubling armor again might just be the best fix. It's self-balancing since pilots have to sacrifice weapons, ammo, and/or heatsinks to maximize their armor. More hitpoints plus the lower alphas that will result from less equipment will immediately increase TTK across the board without adding in more convoluted mechanics or ruining entire chassis weight classes.

Edited by Nightmare1, 10 May 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Theorycraft here...

What are the potential drawbacks to removing ghost heat from group fired same type weapons and instead link it to total potential damage output?

Pick a damage threshold. For my examples, I will use a single shot of the most powerful weapon in game, the AC20. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE! This threshold could be more or less....

So 20 points of damage.

For every point over 20 there is a 5% increase (because 100 / 20 = 5) in heat generated across all weapons fired. You fire two AC20's, thats 400% heat (original heat generated PLUS 5% per point over 20 applied to both weapons) or 24 heat.

You fire 1xAC20+1xML (6+4 heat) but because the potential damage output goes over 20 (25 to be exact) the heat generated 125% or 12.5 heat total (instead of 10).

This isn't drastic unless you compound it. This doesn't prevent you from firing alpha strikes, but it does make them more costly. Run the math, see if I messed up anywhere...