321 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Yep! Frankly, doubling armor again might just be the best fix. It's self-balancing since pilots have to sacrifice weapons, ammo, and/or heatsinks to maximize their armor. More hitpoints plus the lower alphas that will result from less equipment will immediately increase TTK across the board without adding in more convoluted mechanics or ruining entire chassis weight classes.

I actually quite like that idea, on the basis that armour cap is doubled, but not points per ton, so mechs get to decide how much tonnage to spend on armour - capping it would be unusual.

Youd have to introduce some space magic sillyness system where in order to 'unlock' the doubled armour cap you would have to have all sections maxed out already, since otherwise it would give too much extra advantage to mechs with all torso weapons - they would certainly have zero armour arms and stack all of that on the torsos, since extra torso armour works from all angles without effort, where shield arms have to be actively used.

[smokefield]

as i posted in another topic :

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/228231-quirks-discussion-reddit-link/page__view__findpost__p__5180253



we should have a tree like quirk design. this will allow for specialization and diversity, and also give people reasons to play all the mechs more times. but that requires a lot of thinking and hours to balance...so it will not be done...unfortunatelly.

Edited by smokefield, 10 May 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 10 May 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Theorycraft here...

What are the potential drawbacks to removing ghost heat from group fired same type weapons and instead link it to total potential damage output?

Pick a damage threshold. For my examples, I will use a single shot of the most powerful weapon in game, the AC20. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE! This threshold could be more or less....

So 20 points of damage.

For every point over 20 there is a 5% increase (because 100 / 20 = 5) in heat generated across all weapons fired. You fire two AC20's, thats 400% heat (original heat generated PLUS 5% per point over 20 applied to both weapons) or 24 heat.

You fire 1xAC20+1xML (6+4 heat) but because the potential damage output goes over 20 (25 to be exact) the heat generated 125% or 12.5 heat total (instead of 10).

This isn't drastic unless you compound it. This doesn't prevent you from firing alpha strikes, but it does make them more costly. Run the math, see if I messed up anywhere...

The obvious problem with that is that damage is not the only stat of consequence. SRMs have very high flat damage for their tonnage, but its very short ranged and spreads all over the place, whereas PPCs and Gauss rifles project their damage in a pinpoint from very far away. UACs have very low flat damage, but very high rate of fire and no heat to speak of, etc.

If you limited damage to say, 20 points for an alpha, it still allows twin PPC shots from across the map, which is actually effective in the current game and the most you can do, but prevents firing more than a single SRM6 at once, removing that weapon system from the game completely. It also still allow the 4xUAC5 mauler/king crab to function 100% at current effectiveness, while nerfing the everliving crap out of most other builds.

See why basing it on flat damage is terrible?

[Nightmare1]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 10 May 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Theorycraft here...

What are the potential drawbacks to removing ghost heat from group fired same type weapons and instead link it to total potential damage output?

Pick a damage threshold. For my examples, I will use a single shot of the most powerful weapon in game, the AC20. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE! This threshold could be more or less....

So 20 points of damage.

For every point over 20 there is a 5% increase (because 100 / 20 = 5) in heat generated across all weapons fired. You fire two AC20's, thats 400% heat (original heat generated PLUS 5% per point over 20 applied to both weapons) or 24 heat.

You fire 1xAC20+1xML (6+4 heat) but because the potential damage output goes over 20 (25 to be exact) the heat generated 125% or 12.5 heat total (instead of 10).

This isn't drastic unless you compound it. This doesn't prevent you from firing alpha strikes, but it does make them more costly. Run the math, see if I messed up anywhere...

Please no! Your own example using the AC/20s is an excellent argument against it. AC/20s already have Ghost Heat with any other weapon system in the game, doubling their heat output. That's hot and aggravating enough as it is, and one of the reasons why you see so few Boom Mechs these days. Dual AC/20s just aren't that useful anymore compared to other, cooler, higher DPS builds.

Your system would not only put the final coffin nail in that weapon, it would destroy many good weapon systems and viable builds simply because their damage output was too high. In short, everyone would move towards rapid firing weapons. AC/2s and /5s would re-surge strongly, and everyone would run SPLs, MLs, and MPLs with a few SRMs mixed in. AC/20s and /10s would finally, completely vanish, while Gauss Rifle usage would also decline precipitously. PPCs might disappear for good. LPL usage would drop off sharply since you could only safely equip one.

In essence, half the weapon systems in the game would stop being used in order to avoid an unrealistic amount of Ghost Heat.

Edited by Nightmare1, 10 May 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

Your system would not only put the final coffin nail in that weapon, it would destroy many good weapon systems and viable builds simply because their damage output was too high. In short, everyone would move towards rapid firing weapons. AC/2s and /5s would re-surge strongly, and everyone would run SPLs, MLs, and MPLs with a few SRMs mixed in. AC/20s and /10s would finally, completely vanish, while Gauss Rifle usage would also decline precipitously. PPCs might disappear for good. LPL usage would drop off sharply since you could only safely equip one.

In essence, half the weapon systems in the game would stop being used in order to avoid an unrealistic amount of Ghost Heat.

Well, yes, but not exactly - in my opinion with a system as described, you would see twin PPC builds on IS mediums quite a bit - its already dealing with a 20 point damage cap and isnt normally fired with other weapons on smaller mechs (AC5x2+2xPPC is heavy, as is 2xPPC+Gauss). The only place you would see SRMs is 2xSRM4 on light mechs, to supplement small numbers of SPL/ML. Youd probably see some double/quad IS LPL builds since i think they wuld be still viable weapons at 7.7 heat.. Everything else would be (U)AC5.

Clans would be royally screwed, single LPLs at best, single PPCs.. the only way they would have any kind of chance would be the complete removal of quirks and allowing C-ERPPCs to do 15 single location dmg, considering they are very short on effective dakka mechs.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 10 May 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[Aresye]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Consider this: Ballistics are heavy and ammunition limited. They also have projectile velocities and bullet drop. They are a lot more difficult to use than lasers.

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

[CDLord HHGD]

You both hung on the 20 point example which is specifically what I said not to do.... Trying to curb the copious use of high damage alphas here. There isn't a single mech in the game this would hurt as long as you kept your finger off the alpha/group fire buttons....

Firing a single ML is ok.....

I posted a j/k about doubling armor again, but that is a terrible band-aid. Doing so would make single weapons and especially small single weapons completely useless and pointless. Too many people liked it for my comfort.

If a way to curb alphawarrior online isn't found, that's what we'll end up with. You know PGI doesn't like it and they want to change it. Best to accept it as a problem and theorycraft counters and hopefully inspire them to something sensical instead of "convoluted mechanic #8". Not saying my idea isn't convoluted, but at least I'm not denying the problem.

[Nightmare1]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

Personally, I've always felt that ballistics required more skill because you had to be able to hit consistently while leading your target and adjusting for different weapon types. I know what you mean though; most people want to shift the blame to PGI rather than accepting that the root cause of the problem might be themselves rather than the devs.

[Spr1ggan]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

It was the same back in ye olde brawl meta. I remember the forums full of **** like "No skill brawlwarrior online" "They've turned this game into CoD", ad nauseam.

[Nightmare1]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 10 May 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

You both hung on the 20 point example which is specifically what I said not to do.... Trying to curb the copious use of high damage alphas here. There isn't a single mech in the game this would hurt as long as you kept your finger off the alpha/group fire buttons....

Firing a single ML is ok.....

I posted a j/k about doubling armor again, but that is a terrible band-aid. Doing so would make single weapons and especially small single weapons completely useless and pointless. Too many people liked it for my comfort.

If a way to curb alphawarrior online isn't found, that's what we'll end up with. You know PGI doesn't like it and they want to change it. Best to accept it as a problem and theorycraft counters and hopefully inspire them to something sensical instead of "convoluted mechanic #8". Not saying my idea isn't convoluted, but at least I'm not denying the problem.

Your idea is actually pretty poor and really would kill a lot of weapon systems. Doubling the armor is actually rather sensible because it wouldn't actually break the game like your system would. It's just that simple.

Eth3real, on 10 May 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

It was the same back in ye olde brawl meta. I remember the forums full of **** like "No skill brawlwarrior online" "They've turned this game into CoD", ad nauseam.

The more things change, the more they stay the same?

[kapusta11]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

It depends. Back then, when MPLs produced 4.6 heat, LPLs - 8 and GH limit of 2 for large lasers it was 30-35 FLD with decent velocity vs 48 laser alpha (either 8xMPLs or 2xLL + 6xML). Now it's 30-35 FLD with crap speed vs 54+ laser alpha.

Edited by kapusta11, 10 May 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[mogs01gt]

TTK isnt the issue, poor game modes and map design forcing 12v12 engagements is the issue. Three mechs with 30-60 point alphas should be able to kill anything they aim at..

Edited by mogs01gt, 10 May 2016 - 12:39 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

CD LoreHammer Lord, on 10 May 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

You both hung on the 20 point example which is specifically what I said not to do.... Trying to curb the copious use of high damage alphas here. There isn't a single mech in the game this would hurt as long as you kept your finger off the alpha/group fire buttons....

Firing a single ML is ok.....

I posted a j/k about doubling armor again, but that is a terrible band-aid. Doing so would make single weapons and especially small single weapons completely useless and pointless. Too many people liked it for my comfort.

If a way to curb alphawarrior online isn't found, that's what we'll end up with. You know PGI doesn't like it and they want to change it. Best to accept it as a problem and theorycraft counters and hopefully inspire them to something sensical instead of "convoluted mechanic #8". Not saying my idea isn't convoluted, but at least I'm not denying the problem.

It doesnt matter what number you pick, if you base it on flat damage then low damage/high range/high rof/high precision weapons end up on top of the pile (PPCs, AC5s, Gauss), and high damage, low range/spread weapons (SRMs, AC20) get removed from play

[JigglyMoobs]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

We've tread this path many times before:

The weapon that kills you is always the one that's easiest to use.

The weapon that you kill other people with is always the most skillful.

If you die horribly at match start TTK is too short. If the enemy dies horribly at match start they are morons.

Before laser meta: Jump jet pop-tarting with PPFLD takes no skill. What takes skill is moving your mouse from side to side while sending scattershot weapons and lasers in the other mech's general direction.

After laser meta: Lasers take no skill. What takes skill is to send PPFLD ballistics while using jump jets.

Actually, on second thought, pin point component wise damage (which distinguishes MWO from every FPS twitch shooter) is bad because it takes no skill to hit components on a moving mech. What is skillful is sending projectiles flying in the general direction of the mech.

Also jump jetting in general takes no skill. What takes skill is making your mech move on the ground. Preferably flat ground.

PS - LRMs always take skill because there are so many things you have to consider to get the most missiles to land on people while hiding behind other mechs/rocks/terrain just behind/way behind the front line.

Did I miss anything?

To recap:

The current state of MWO is horrible because it takes no skill/ is too much like CoD/ people die too fast.

To change things, we need to change pin point damage so that people can't simply take out components, figuring out some way of making it so that people can't die fast, take out the laser/PPFLD meta because they require no skill, take out component damage and spread it along a nice big comfy area that our mechs can withstand, make LRMs more viable because that does require skill, make jump jets not work well because poptarts are generally evil, and boost the LBX because that's a really great weapon that we should all use.

Got it. Let's make all these changes. By this time next year we can finally have the game that everybody really wants:

Pillow Fight Warrior Online: BattleTech edition.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 10 May 2016 - 01:54 PM.

[Alan Davion]

JigglyMoobs, on 10 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

To change things, we need to change pin point damage so that people can't simply take out components, figuring out some way of making it so that people can't die fast, take out the laser/PPFLD meta because they require no skill, take out component damage and spread it along a nice big comfy area that our mechs can withstand, make LRMs more viable because that does require skill, make jump jets not work well because poptarts are generally evil, and boost the LBX because that's a really great weapon that we should all use.

Cone of Fire.

That is all.

[Targetloc]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

You're right that the top teams will always be the top teams because they are good and adapt, but it's not like the meta shifted on its own.

Most projectile weapons had their velocity/effective range nerfed and lasers have seen a lot of buffs in the form of quirks or base heat/duration adjustments.

There's been a noticeable increase in burst damage since the clans dropped. 40 used to be the face rocking extreme, but then the TBR upped the ante to 54 that can be fired 2-3 times consecutively. And it seems to gradually trending up from there as new robots come out or get re-quirked.

[Nightmare1]

JigglyMoobs, on 10 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

We've tread this path many times before:

The weapon that kills you is always the one that's easiest to use.

The weapon that you kill other people with is always the most skillful.

If you die horribly at match start TTK is too short. If the enemy dies horribly at match start they are morons.

Before laser meta: Jump jet pop-tarting with PPFLD takes no skill. What takes skill is moving your mouse from side to side while sending scattershot weapons and lasers in the other mech's general direction.

After laser meta: Lasers take no skill. What takes skill is to send PPFLD ballistics while using jump jets.

Actually, on second thought, pin point component wise damage (which distinguishes MWO from every FPS twitch shooter) is bad because it takes no skill to hit components on a moving mech. What is skillful is sending projectiles flying in the general direction of the mech.

Also jump jetting in general takes no skill. What takes skill is making your mech move on the ground. Preferably flat ground.

PS - LRMs always take skill because there are so many things you have to consider to get the most missiles to land on people while hiding behind other mechs/rocks/terrain just behind/way behind the front line.

Did I miss anything?

To recap:

The current state of MWO is horrible because it takes no skill/ is too much like CoD/ people die too fast.

To change things, we need to change pin point damage so that people can't simply take out components, figuring out some way of making it so that people can't die fast, take out the laser/PPFLD meta because they require no skill, take out component damage and spread it along a nice big comfy area that our mechs can withstand, make LRMs more viable because that does require skill, make jump jets not work well because poptarts are generally evil, and boost the LBX because that's a really great weapon that we should all use.

Got it. Let's make all these changes. By this time next year we can finally have the game that everybody really wants:

Pillow Fight Warrior Online: BattleTech edition.

...And pillows are much more useful too! When you get sleepy in the middle of the fight, you can power down somewhere and take a nap!

Alan Davion, on 10 May 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Cone of Fire.

That is all.

Was tried. Broke hit-reg and the game. Had no way to balance it between weight classes. Awful idea to even think about bringing it back.

That is all.

[Tarl Cabot]

Aresye, on 10 May 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Funny how back during the PPC+AC5 combo days, people were saying that PPFLD weapons were easy to use and how lasers required more skill because you have to keep your aim on target. Now after the meta has shifted, somehow lasers are now easy to use, and PPFLD weapons are more "difficult" to use.

Funny how the same players and teams are still at the top despite all these changes, yet it's always because of game balance, TTK, perfect convergence, etc. It's never because they might be "good."

To be fair, we only had QP, ballistics had triple the range instead of the current double range AND they had a higher velocity. And ERPPC/PPC also had a higher velocity. Fire and twist or poptart and drop.

Also we had only IS mechs that were primarily a mixed weapon set, ballistics/missile + energy weapons. And decisions of STD vs ever fragile isXL engines. And do no forget the quirks that were added later.

Energy weapons, primarily lasers, started to shine with the intro of CW/FW. Remember, ballistics no longer had their 3x range nor their higher velocities, because PGI killed that when trying to kill the Victor/Highlander poptarting scene (someone must have headshot Paul/Russ ) Clans had those ERLL and back up ERML (att-mini large lasers). IS pugs would whimper when they landed on a counter-attack. omg, it was like herding hippos wallowing in mud.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 10 May 2016 - 05:01 PM.

[Charles Sennet]

TTK is great. Great if you are IS, that is. TTK in most Clans mech is laughable.

[JigglyMoobs]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

...And pillows are much more useful too! When you get sleepy in the middle of the fight, you can power down somewhere and take a nap!

I'd like that feature right now with the FW wait times. They should give you a real life pillow for use during match making.

Quote

Was tried. Broke hit-reg and the game. Had no way to balance it between weight classes. Awful idea to even think about bringing it back.

Not to mention that it sucks.

Here's an idea for increasing TTK that might not be horrible (haven't made up my mind whether it is or is not).

A couple of people suggested increasing internals and armor. I think that's going in the right direction but still might be a bit much. So, instead of increasing internals and armor all the way, how about finding a way to make the engine and perhaps the legs harder to take out?

Basically, right now people go for fast kills either by removing the legs or drilling the CT or ST (on XL mechs). Consequently, when you die, you tend to still have some weapons and other components left.

Thus, the sequence of destruction often goes like this:

Armor striped -> couple of component crits -> dead

What if you made engines and legs hardier and tried to tilt the sequence like this:

Armor striped -> component lost -> component lost -> component lost -> engine capability degraded -> dead.

TTK would drag out longer, but people will still be doing meaningful damage to you. Also, the game tactics would tilt towards either going for cockpit shots or stripping weapons. The former takes more skill, the latter takes more time, but neither would be boring, and it won't feel like we are playing with nerf bats.

In those respects I think this is a good idea.

But here's the bad part: almost every mech might have to be tweaked and re-balanced, hit reg issues with lights would also throw a major wrench into things, so there's a lot of possibilities for upsetting the game balance.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 10 May 2016 - 07:07 PM.