321 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

JigglyMoobs, on 10 May 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'd like that feature right now with the FW wait times. They should give you a real life pillow for use during match making.



Not to mention that it sucks.

Here's an idea for increasing TTK that might not be horrible (haven't made up my mind whether it is or is not).

A couple of people suggested increasing internals and armor. I think that's going in the right direction but still might be a bit much. So, instead of increasing internals and armor all the way, how about finding a way to make the engine and perhaps the legs harder to take out?

Basically, right now people go for fast kills either by removing the legs or drilling the CT or ST (on XL mechs). Consequently, when you die, you tend to still have some weapons and other components left.

Thus, the sequence of destruction often goes like this:

Armor striped -> couple of component crits -> dead

What if you made engines and legs hardier and tried to tilt the sequence like this:

Armor striped -> component lost -> component lost -> component lost -> engine capability degraded -> dead.

TTK would drag out longer, but people will still be doing meaningful damage to you. Also, the game tactics would tilt towards either going for cockpit shots or stripping weapons. The former takes more skill, the latter takes more time, but neither would be boring, and it won't feel like we are playing with nerf bats.

In those respects I think this is a good idea.

But here's the bad part: almost every mech might have to be tweaked and re-balanced, hit reg issues with lights would also throw a major wrench into things, so there's a lot of possibilities for upsetting the game balance.

Interesting.

[LordKnightFandragon]

JigglyMoobs, on 10 May 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'd like that feature right now with the FW wait times. They should give you a real life pillow for use during match making.



Not to mention that it sucks.

Here's an idea for increasing TTK that might not be horrible (haven't made up my mind whether it is or is not).

A couple of people suggested increasing internals and armor. I think that's going in the right direction but still might be a bit much. So, instead of increasing internals and armor all the way, how about finding a way to make the engine and perhaps the legs harder to take out?

Basically, right now people go for fast kills either by removing the legs or drilling the CT or ST (on XL mechs). Consequently, when you die, you tend to still have some weapons and other components left.

Thus, the sequence of destruction often goes like this:

Armor striped -> couple of component crits -> dead

What if you made engines and legs hardier and tried to tilt the sequence like this:

Armor striped -> component lost -> component lost -> component lost -> engine capability degraded -> dead.

TTK would drag out longer, but people will still be doing meaningful damage to you. Also, the game tactics would tilt towards either going for cockpit shots or stripping weapons. The former takes more skill, the latter takes more time, but neither would be boring, and it won't feel like we are playing with nerf bats.

In those respects I think this is a good idea.

But here's the bad part: almost every mech might have to be tweaked and re-balanced, hit reg issues with lights would also throw a major wrench into things, so there's a lot of possibilities for upsetting the game balance.

Rather then doing the time tested and true method of CoF+Aim time with some ways to increase or decrease both. Pretty much making it not like firing a LMG in games, where if you non stop fire it, you get ****** accuracy, but if you burst fire, you get real good accuracy.

This game has so many derpy *** systems in place because everyone is so opposed to a simple CoF+Aimtime mechanic......we have Ghost heat, which does nothing to curb the PPFLD, we were going to have Ghost damage to curb it, we have PPCs that are a joke due to it, we have LRMs to the point where they are an absolute joke, Autocannons not being worth their weight and space due to the incessant need for people to pack in as much fire power into a single burst as they can.

Where a simple COF+Aim time would slow down our sustained ROF, it would lower the sheer firepower put onto a single mech's single spot, it would make heavier weapons like ACs viable, since everyone is firing 1 or 2 guns anyway. LRMs would again be decent, since everything is spreading to a degree, and its not all about just packing in Lasers on your lasers just to achieve the highest PPFLD. CoF+Aimtime. It would make mechs that dont have amazing hit boxes and perfect hardpoint setups viable, loadouts like the Summoner Prime, who relies on a fast, hit and run build for multiple combat ranges would be good. It would be more about fire discipline, group fire for faster kills, and actually being able to move around without being melted and less about walking around a corner and being face planted cuz you decided to break cover.....

[smokefield]

Quote

Pillow Fight Warrior Online: BattleTech edition.

yeah jig. realizing how right you are.... no amout of facepalms memes can explain my feelings reading these forums....

[Alan Davion]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Was tried. Broke hit-reg and the game. Had no way to balance it between weight classes. Awful idea to even think about bringing it back.

That is all.

So instead of knuckling down and actually fixing what got f***ed up, PGI just threw up their arms in defeat, said they can't fix it and shoved another mech down our throats.

Typical.

Same could be said with the LBX ammo switching. Instead of actually sitting someone the F*** down and telling them to do something actually useful for the game, they threw up their arms in defeat, said they can't fix it, and shoved lockboxes down our throats.

I really think PGI is just out to screw up the game enough that people finally start leaving permanently.

[Targetloc]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 May 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

Rather then doing the time tested and true method of CoF+Aim time with some ways to increase or decrease both. Pretty much making it not like firing a LMG in games, where if you non stop fire it, you get ****** accuracy, but if you burst fire, you get real good accuracy.

This game has so many derpy *** systems in place because everyone is so opposed to a simple CoF+Aimtime mechanic......we have Ghost heat, which does nothing to curb the PPFLD, we were going to have Ghost damage to curb it, we have PPCs that are a joke due to it, we have LRMs to the point where they are an absolute joke, Autocannons not being worth their weight and space due to the incessant need for people to pack in as much fire power into a single burst as they can.

Where a simple COF+Aim time would slow down our sustained ROF, it would lower the sheer firepower put onto a single mech's single spot, it would make heavier weapons like ACs viable, since everyone is firing 1 or 2 guns anyway. LRMs would again be decent, since everything is spreading to a degree, and its not all about just packing in Lasers on your lasers just to achieve the highest PPFLD. CoF+Aimtime. It would make mechs that dont have amazing hit boxes and perfect hardpoint setups viable, loadouts like the Summoner Prime, who relies on a fast, hit and run build for multiple combat ranges would be good. It would be more about fire discipline, group fire for faster kills, and actually being able to move around without being melted and less about walking around a corner and being face planted cuz you decided to break cover.....

COF has always been the correct answer, but LRMs would probably still be bad. They need a serious redesign. They're a low-risk/low-reward weapon.

A lot of the weapons technically do if they want to ignore that the base stats from the board game also relied heavily on them having different accuracy at different ranges. PGI has done a pretty good job getting things close to balanced by tweaking the numbers on most weapons and using cooldown times, duration and (as much as I hate to say it) ghost heat as another knob to tune the weapons while basing them off the book stats.

MW2 and MW4 did not use the 'real' stats. MW3 did and it was the worst of the series for multi-player. Absolutely brutal.

There are a lot of pros and cons that would come out of using a modern FPS style COF on weapons.

Pros

• They could get rid of 'ghost' mechanics as a way of countering PPFLD
  
• PPCs, ERPPCs and ER lasers could have their heat moved back up but would now be well worth it because of their accuracy.
  
• Pulse lasers would offer enough of a bonus (better accuracy) that everyone isn't asking why they weigh twice as much but have less range. They would actually play differently. The damage and heat buffs could be rolled back.
  
• AC2's and AC5's would have an interesting niche.
  
• Gauss and regular PPC's would have a more lore accurate and intuitive 'min range'. You have your targeting reticle over something inside 90m and they get a large reticle bloom. People forget gauss is supposed to have a min-range targeting penalty to help counter how strong it is at distance.
  
• Skill cap would actually go up for aiming. There's been hundreds of thousands of arguments about this on the forums of every other game with COF, but it's a fact, as long as the COF is reasonable, the player who knows the effective range of the weapon and shoots dead center on the spot he's aiming is rewarded, while punishing those who aren't quite as accurate as they think they are.

Cons

• Without cooldown adjustments (and heat being bumped back up to normal) PPC's and Gauss would become the meta again instantly. Precise damage will always be king, and a weapon that's accurate at long range is surgical at mid range. This would have to be balanced with them being overwhelmed DPS-wise at short range.
  
• It's a very, very fine balance between 'this weapon is optimal at hitting a component at this range' and 'ay lmao, everything's a bullet hose so we all just take SRM's and slam face.'

[Nightmare1]

Alan Davion, on 10 May 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

So instead of knuckling down and actually fixing what got f***ed up, PGI just threw up their arms in defeat, said they can't fix it and shoved another mech down our throats.

Typical.

Same could be said with the LBX ammo switching. Instead of actually sitting someone the F*** down and telling them to do something actually useful for the game, they threw up their arms in defeat, said they can't fix it, and shoved lockboxes down our throats.

I really think PGI is just out to screw up the game enough that people finally start leaving permanently.

Frankly, I think abandoning CoF was a good call. It didn't really help at all since people still just ran dakka builds and brawled at close range to get around the CoF. CoF eliminates sniping but doesn't really increase TTK in the end. It is, itself, a band-aid solution.

[Aresye]

Alan Davion, on 10 May 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Cone of Fire.

That is all.

lol, from how most people argue about balance, it would seem the only logical step to solve most problems would be to implement CoF in addition to making every mech just a single hitbox.

CoF + single health bar. Yup, that'll certainly prevent the game from being like Call of Duty.

[H I A S]

Targetloc, on 10 May 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

You're right that the top teams will always be the top teams because they are good and adapt, but it's not like the meta shifted on its own.

Most projectile weapons had their velocity/effective range nerfed and lasers have seen a lot of buffs in the form of quirks or base heat/duration adjustments.

There's been a noticeable increase in burst damage since the clans dropped. 40 used to be the face rocking extreme, but then the TBR upped the ante to 54 that can be fired 2-3 times consecutively. And it seems to gradually trending up from there as new robots come out or get re-quirked.

Tarl Cabot, on 10 May 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

To be fair, we only had QP, ballistics had triple the range instead of the current double range AND they had a higher velocity. And ERPPC/PPC also had a higher velocity. Fire and twist or poptart and drop.

Also we had only IS mechs that were primarily a mixed weapon set, ballistics/missile + energy weapons. And decisions of STD vs ever fragile isXL engines. And do no forget the quirks that were added later.

Energy weapons, primarily lasers, started to shine with the intro of CW/FW. Remember, ballistics no longer had their 3x range nor their higher velocities, because PGI killed that when trying to kill the Victor/Highlander poptarting scene (someone must have headshot Paul/Russ ) Clans had those ERLL and back up ERML (att-mini large lasers). IS pugs would whimper when they landed on a counter-attack. omg, it was like herding hippos wallowing in mud.

Problem in the old poptarddays was crappy hitreg with lazors and srm, not PPC and ballistics.
Now PPC and JJ are crap. Thx cryhards

[Targetloc]

arivio, on 10 May 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

Problem in the old poptarddays was crappy hitreg with lazors and srm, not PPC and ballistics.
Now PPC and JJ are crap. Thx cryhards

You can't blame the players for PGI picking the dumbest possible way to fix a specific balance issue. God I miss JJ's that aren't complete garbage. There were a ton of suggestions, good and terrible, but never did a player suggest 'hover jets'.

[H I A S]

All the ideas from the community to "fix" jumpsniping were also crap.

Edited by arivio, 10 May 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[smokefield]

take the summoner for a spin to relive the golden era

[H I A S]

I do it in the Nova and i will do it with the NightGyr, but im still upset about all the whiners.

[-Vompo-]

Targetloc, on 10 May 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

What is missing there is shots that would miss the head may become headshots too...

[Karl Streiger]

arivio, on 10 May 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

All the ideas from the community to "fix" jumpsniping were also crap.

not from me - i would never have approved the jump jet heat ramp

(the heavies jets with the lowest relative thrust, have the most heat)

or the fall damage stuff....

(ok pop tarting wouldn't be have simple with my fix but hey - at least we would have had jump jets that were worth their weight)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 May 2016 - 06:04 AM.

[Koniving]

Nightmare1, on 10 May 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

Frankly, I think abandoning CoF was a good call. It didn't really help at all since people still just ran dakka builds and brawled at close range to get around the CoF. CoF eliminates sniping but doesn't really increase TTK in the end. It is, itself, a band-aid solution.

There's a way to have both.
Cone of fire is literally meant to represent three things: One, macro movement (running, jumping, etc). Two, micro movement (breathing, nervous twitches, spasms, general unsteadiness). And finally Three: Recoil.

The second doesn't apply.

The first applies to all weapons in MWO and the last applies on some weapons in MWO.

Recoil wouldn't apply to lasers or Gauss Rifles (at least not scientifically).
It would apply to PPCs and their derivatives (expressly stated) and autocannons.

So instead of using what Cone of Fire is meant to emulate, lets just put in what actually causes those effects.

I refer you to this video on War Thunder. In it I'm using a tank with an autocannon at high speeds to emulate the usual b.s. we do in MWO. At times I do get significantly better accuracy, by NOT MOVING!
At no time is there a cone of fire mechanic. At all times, movement (including the tilting of the tank by shocks/terrain) and recoil effect the weapon. Furthermore, gravity effects the weapons too.

At all times, the weapon is pinpoint accurate (other than gravity and for that there's a gauge to read height adjustments) and the place it will hit is very clearly indicated at any time that point is shown on the screen.

If we combine these elements and remove the "Herpaderp more heatsinks more max heat before overheat herpaderp" b.s. we have, I do believe we'll have fixed a number of issues.

Side note: If a machine (say a CPU) cuts off at 370 degrees... the size of the heatsink won't change that cut-off threshold; just how long it takes to get there with the same rate of heat build up. A superior heatsink still can't stop it from shutting off if you hit 370 degrees. So, how come our heatsinks raise the ceiling of maximum heat we can have at once?

Edited by Koniving, 16 May 2016 - 12:37 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Koniving, on 16 May 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

There's a way to have both.
Cone of fire is literally meant to represent three things: One, macro movement (running, jumping, etc). Two, micro movement (breathing, nervous twitches, spasms, general unsteadiness). And finally Three: Recoil.

The second doesn't apply.

The first applies to all weapons in MWO and the last applies on some weapons in MWO.

Recoil wouldn't apply to lasers or Gauss Rifles (at least not scientifically).
It would apply to PPCs and their derivatives (expressly stated) and autocannons.

So instead of using what Cone of Fire is meant to emulate, lets just put in what actually causes those effects.

I refer you to this video on War Thunder. In it I'm using a tank with an autocannon at high speeds to emulate the usual b.s. we do in MWO. At times I do get significantly better accuracy, by NOT MOVING!
At no time is there a cone of fire mechanic. At all times, movement (including the tilting of the tank by shocks/terrain) and recoil effect the weapon. Furthermore, gravity effects the weapons too.

At all times, the weapon is pinpoint accurate (other than gravity and for that there's a gauge to read height adjustments) and the place it will hit is very clearly indicated at any time that point is shown on the screen.

If we combine these elements and remove the "Herpaderp more heatsinks more max heat before overheat herpaderp" b.s. we have, I do believe we'll have fixed a number of issues.

Side note: If a machine (say a CPU) cuts off at 370 degrees... the size of the heatsink won't change that cut-off threshold; just how long it takes to get there with the same rate of heat build up. A superior heatsink still can't stop it from shutting off if you hit 370 degrees. So, how come our heatsinks raise the ceiling of maximum heat we can have at once?

There are still problems with this. Take 1) for example. If you base it on Mech speed, then it would kill Light Mechs and Medium Mechs. Slower Mechs would be the only Mechs capable of hitting anything while moving. If it was based on weight, as in heavy footfalls and ponderous movement, then it would kill the Heavies and Assaults. Trying to use both speed and weight would likely prove to be too complicated and problematic.

Then, if you consider 3), it really only nerfs weapons that don't need nerfing. Right now, the big problem is with energy weapons; not ballistics and PPCs. Yet, recoil based CoF wouldn't do anything to curb the overuse of energy weapons. The end result, is that CoF will just bolster the use of such weapons, while continuing to marginalize Mechs that rely on ballistics, such as the Hunchback, Shadowhawk, King Crab, etc.

In my opinion, CoF is a can of worms that really just shouldn't be opened. PGI did at one point, but was smart enough to clamp the lid back on before the worms spilled out; let's not do that again.

[Targetloc]

Nightmare1, on 16 May 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

There are still problems with this. Take 1) for example. If you base it on Mech speed, then it would kill Light Mechs and Medium Mechs. Slower Mechs would be the only Mechs capable of hitting anything while moving. If it was based on weight, as in heavy footfalls and ponderous movement, then it would kill the Heavies and Assaults. Trying to use both speed and weight would likely prove to be too complicated and problematic.

The board game handles this by making it based off the mech's walk/run speed rather than absolute speed. If it was a fixed threshold like, going above 80 kph introduced more shake it would be really unfair to light mechs and have no effect on assaults.

But instead the reasoning was if the mech was designed with a max speed of 130 and cruise at 97 kph then it got a small accuracy penalty up to 97 kph and a bit more from 97-130.
Where as a mech designed to run 64 kph and cruise at 46 gets the same penalty from 0-46 and 47-64. It's related to how much you're pushing the machine rather than the raw speed.

That allows light mechs to still run fast without taking a bigger penalty than assaults, while still keeping the mechanic of throttling down at the right time can give you an improved shot without going dead slow.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 16 May 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Side note: If a machine (say a CPU) cuts off at 370 degrees... the size of the heatsink won't change that cut-off threshold; just how long it takes to get there with the same rate of heat build up. A superior heatsink still can't stop it from shutting off if you hit 370 degrees. So, how come our heatsinks raise the ceiling of maximum heat we can have at once?

because that is what Heat cap is doing... by changing just how long it takes to get there with the same rate of heat build up The end result is the same, but superior dissipation does in effect give a superior cap. It's the same as your overheating CPU. If you get to that temp, it's still toast, but you add this gonzo system that keeps you from getting to that temp. Essentially the heatsinks are banking (and disposing of) waste heat to keep them from frying the system sooner.

You are changing that rate of heat buildup by venting/sinking it more effectively.

Nightmare1, on 16 May 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

There are still problems with this. Take 1) for example. If you base it on Mech speed, then it would kill Light Mechs and Medium Mechs. Slower Mechs would be the only Mechs capable of hitting anything while moving. If it was based on weight, as in heavy footfalls and ponderous movement, then it would kill the Heavies and Assaults. Trying to use both speed and weight would likely prove to be too complicated and problematic.

Then, if you consider 3), it really only nerfs weapons that don't need nerfing. Right now, the big problem is with energy weapons; not ballistics and PPCs. Yet, recoil based CoF wouldn't do anything to curb the overuse of energy weapons. The end result, is that CoF will just bolster the use of such weapons, while continuing to marginalize Mechs that rely on ballistics, such as the Hunchback, Shadowhawk, King Crab, etc.

In my opinion, CoF is a can of worms that really just shouldn't be opened. PGI did at one point, but was smart enough to clamp the lid back on before the worms spilled out; let's not do that again.

when did PGI open the CoF can of worms? Had to be pre June 2012, cuz outside MGs I have never seen em.

[Nightmare1]

Targetloc, on 16 May 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

The board game handles this by making it based off the mech's walk/run speed rather than absolute speed. If it was a fixed threshold like, going above 80 kph introduced more shake it would be really unfair to light mechs and have no effect on assaults.

But instead the reasoning was if the mech was designed with a max speed of 130 and cruise at 97 kph then it got a small accuracy penalty up to 97 kph and a bit more from 97-130.
Where as a mech designed to run 64 kph and cruise at 46 gets the same penalty from 0-46 and 47-64. It's related to how much you're pushing the machine rather than the raw speed.

That allows light mechs to still run fast without taking a bigger penalty than assaults, while still keeping the mechanic of throttling down at the right time can give you an improved shot without going dead slow.

That wouldn't be quite so bad. The recoil based CoF would still be an issue though.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 May 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

when did PGI open the CoF can of worms? Had to be pre June 2012, cuz outside MGs I have never seen em.

Previously, your crosshairs shook with your Mech's footfalls, influencing your shot placement. This didn't work very well, exacerbating the problem of bad hit-reg. It was also really frustrating to accurately hit targets with it.

On a side note, Mechs used to be able to destroy enemy actuators and such, which also affected your reticle and movement. That was all scrapped too.

[Targetloc]

Nightmare1, on 16 May 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

That wouldn't be quite so bad. The recoil based CoF would still be an issue though.

Yeah, I wouldn't go for that just because it's never been a mechanic in lore either.

If they were to introduce it, preferably they phased it in slowly, starting with the weapons themselves. Find out what a 'fair' max spread is for regular lasers vs pulse lasers, regular lasers/PPCs vs ER lasers/PPCs. Assume everyone is always moving at max speed anyways. Focus on making it so weapons have a good balance between their 'pinpoint' range and 'damage on target' range.

Then work in that slowing down or stopping increases accuracy in a future update.

When that's in a good spot they could look at the traditional heat penalties, where running near max heat starts to affect targeting.

Baby steps, so people can decide if individual mechanics are good or bad, unlike that test where they completely changed how radar, targeting and lasers work all at the same time.

Nightmare1, on 16 May 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Previously, your crosshairs shook with your Mech's footfalls, influencing your shot placement. This didn't work very well, exacerbating the problem of bad hit-reg. It was also really frustrating to accurately hit targets with it.

On a side note, Mechs used to be able to destroy enemy actuators and such, which also affected your reticle and movement. That was all scrapped too.

Unless that was in one of the 'secret squirrel' tests I don't think that's ever been on the public test servers... But yeah they would need to have it bug-free before people could really test it or the bugs would overshadow whether the mechanics themselves were good or bad.

Edited by Targetloc, 16 May 2016 - 03:21 PM.