482 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

While I have been secretly hoping that PGI would drop their new Ghost Heat 2.0 system, it sounds like Russ has indicated that it is still in the works and might be coming this summer. This disappoints me greatly, and especially makes the announcement of the Night Gyr bittersweet... what good is an XL 300 75 tonner if its firepower is going to be arbitrarily capped?

Some have said "well you can still dakka with it", and that is true, but do we really want a game where the only viable way for heavy/assaults mechs to bring appropriate firepower is to bring autocannons? That sounds incredibly boring vs the options there are now (lasers, SRMs, Gauss, AC20 +SRMs, dakka).

The other thing you have to realize is, the reason people alpha strike is for their own survival. Firing weapons in groups means you are staring, making you an easy target for the other team, meaning you die faster than if you were to come out and get your damage out then roll away to spread damage. One argument I hear is "Well you can just poke with less damage then, and if everyone else has to follow the same rules staring won't be that dangerous." But what about that 3 UAC 10 or 4 UAC 5 Night Gyr that doesn't break the power draw rules? is the belief that 3 UAC 10s or 4 UAC 5s or 5 AC5s actually yield higher TTKs than being able to alpha strike a couple times before being heat capped? In my experience that is not the case. High alpha mechs want to return to cover and cool off, where dakka mechs can keep on shooting at ~15 DPS.

My concern is that this new "power draw" system will curb mechs ability to "fire and twist" which will lead to 1-dimensional style of play among heavy and assault mechs, which will be both boring and will leave many mechs in the hanger collecting dust, and won't even address TTK. I know some people would say "1-dimensional?? All this game is is laser spam!!", and I would respond by explaining that the experience in the solo public queue is not indicative of what is possible when teamwork is employed. Heavy laser use is a product of its mid-range effectiveness, lack of team cohesion, and lack of understanding of what map you will end up on.

That being said, I propose that instead of ridiculous heat penalties or ghost damage 2.0, when a laser vomit alphastrike is over "the limit", maybe just make the lasers burn for a longer duration?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 May 2016 - 11:25 PM.

[Xhaleon]

We don't know exactly how spooky mechanics 2.0 is going to work, so there is no use complaining about it yet.

So as long as it curbs the effectiveness (-over-time) of alpha vomit builds without actually preventing them from being used, I would have no problem with it. A cooldown penalty would be pretty universal, as opposed to laser duration.

[Karl Streiger]

Not a big fan of this system either. Maybe its the holy grail of logic and balance but still shouldn't be existing.
I expect the same behaviour like Ghost Heat - fire two instant get a penalty wait 0.5sec don't get a penalty - or use a combination of weapons that don't get a penalty....

Ghost Heat and Ghost Heat 2 (power draw) it the product of the community - While I think they get what they deserve, the logic behind is complete alien to me.

Why not turn Ghost Heat into a bizarre but at last working system (every weapon - no groups that count and those that doesn't)
Why just to jump on the next train - without consolidating what is existing.
But hey - we have Heat Gen, Velocity, Duration, Spread and Jam Chance Quirks so hey don't expect something logical

---

Heat = Energy
Energy = Heat
EnergyGrid = Reactor Rating - Stupid

Edited by Karl Streiger, 01 May 2016 - 11:16 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Xhaleon, on 01 May 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

We don't know exactly how spooky mechanics 2.0 is going to work, so there is no use complaining about it yet.

So as long as it curbs the effectiveness (-over-time) of alpha vomit builds without actually preventing them from being used, I would have no problem with it. A cooldown penalty would be pretty universal, as opposed to laser duration.

Hm, well Russ mentioned that it would "affect perception of hit detection", which doesn't sound like a cooldown penalty to me. Sounds more like weapons are just going to magically do less damage when you fire too many of them together.

When you say effectiveness over time, do you mean you don't like how for example a Black Knight, can alpha for 58 damage, wait the ~3 second cooldown, and alpha again? After that, it can't alpha anymore and has to go sit and cool off, or just fire its LPLs. Where as say a 4 AC5 Black Widow can just keep up its DPS the whole time without having to worry about heat. I swear, the times that I end up killing mechs exceedingly quickly are with mechs like that.

[Taffer]

This game just keeps getting spookier.

[Aresye]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

My concern is that this new "power draw" system will curb mechs ability to "fire and twist" which will lead to 1-dimensional style of play among heavy and assault mechs...

Now you know why the idea is popular amongst those who never bothered to learn those skills.

[TyphonCh]

This seems well within PGI's quirk-proofing abilities. I would approve of that
But honestly since we have 0 hints what power draw is even going to be, I'll hold my breath. Probably until I pass out. But I'm used to it.

[Gas Guzzler]

I know we don't know exactly what they are going to do, I am just watching PGI announce all these exciting new mechs and thinking "Hmm what the hell is the Kodiak going to do with 9 energy hardpoints? Stand out in the open for 3 full seconds firing 3 lasers at a time? What is the point?", or "Do I really want to buy this slow 75 ton Night Gyr, when the faster Timber Wolf is ALREADY going to have its firepower capped/penalized?"

[kesmai]

I think we are approaching a point were this game can't be saved anymore.
My feeling is that heatscale will not change that. Even if implemented right.
The playerbase IS dropping at a greater pace than ever before. People i played with on a daily basis just one or two months ago aren't anymore. Heck i've got to force myself to play this. My weekly playtime has dropped from 30+ hrs to 4 or 5 hours a week.
No FW phase 4, heatscale, whatever will change this.
Owning more than 220 mechs i do not feel i need more. So the monthly mech isn't really of interest and if i look at the old clan and resistance packs their value seems very low.
I can not see pgi coming with a change that is gonna aleviate this. They are too set on their course, sometimes i've got the feeling their decision making involves a dart board.
In short: This game is either sold to another company, or is abandoned even before the license is running out.


P.S.: You can bash me now. Have fun.

[Xhaleon]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

Hm, well Russ mentioned that it would "affect perception of hit detection", which doesn't sound like a cooldown penalty to me. Sounds more like weapons are just going to magically do less damage when you fire too many of them together.

I know, but it really could be anything. PGI is not exactly known for creating bugs that make any logical sense. If they think the current idea will not work then there is the chance they will try something else. I'm sure a cooldown penalty would be easy enough to do.

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

When you say effectiveness over time, do you mean you don't like how for example a Black Knight, can alpha for 58 damage, wait the ~3 second cooldown, and alpha again? After that, it can't alpha anymore and has to go sit and cool off, or just fire its LPLs. Where as say a 4 AC5 Black Widow can just keep up its DPS the whole time without having to worry about heat. I swear, the times that I end up killing mechs exceedingly quickly are with mechs like that.

Not quite. You are describing the current ghost heat system, while I mean that no ghost heat should be applied but that the weapon cooldowns get extended when exceeding the "power supply" of the mech. Simply waiting 0.5 seconds before firing a second batch of weapons will not work; if there are weapons recharging and you add more recharging weapons to the list, they might exceed the power supply and everything recharges slower.

By increasing the time it takes for boated weapons to recharge, you will lower their effective DPS. Sure, it won't matter so much if the battle turns into a pokefest, but that is perfectly fine because that is what the alpha-build is specialized for. They SHOULD be allowed to play that way but at a cost of not shooting as often.

Let's say in this hypothetical system that ballistics and missiles consume less power than energy weapons with missiles being the least power hungry. Part of the concern with lasers is not only are they light and small enough to boat in large numbers but that they do so with pinpoint accuracy. Well okay, let them do that and do not deal with any cone-of-fire or ghost heat buildup, but take them down a notch so that builds with less power draw can out-DPS them in the right situations, especially mixed weapon builds that are normally inefficient in MWO. They already sort of do that but lasers are still generally more effective for most situations.

Sure, it would make boating ballistics more prominent, but weight and speed is often a downside for such builds and are more likely to spread damage around more than pinpoint lasers so I think it all balances out in the end. Gauss rifles will of course draw power on par with energy weapons or even more so. If I'm not mistaken, we are currently prevented from charging more than 2 gauss rifles at the same time, so changing everything to a universal cooldown penalty system would open up the opportunity for the Thunder Hawk to make an appearance without being gimped right out of the gate.

Edited by Xhaleon, 01 May 2016 - 11:41 PM.

[Impyrium]

See, my opinion is that I'm not a big fan of the fire then twist gameplay in the first place. Because it's that requirement that drives the requirements for a 'mech to be able to alpha a large chunk of damage, then duck away/twist. And invalidates everything else.

I know players feel like it's a big 'skill' factor of MWO. But to me it's just a flat requirement that leads to that very specific gameplay style. I'd rather there be some sort of happy medium where both styles were viable in their own situations.

Personally I don't believe it would make the game feel 1-dimensional. But it's hard to judge a system that not only isn't in practice yet, we don't know barely anything about.

Edited by Dingo Red, 01 May 2016 - 11:40 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

@Xhaleon I wasn't describing ghost heat, that's just how hot the mech is. 2 alphas then on to LPLS at a slower cooldown to keep from shutting down.

Dingo Red, on 01 May 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

See, my opinion is that I'm not a big fan of the fire then twist gameplay in the first place. Because it's that requirement that drives the requirements for a 'mech to be able to alpha a large chunk of damage, then duck away/twist. And invalidates everything else.

I know players feel like it's a big 'skill' factor of MWO. But to me it's just a flat requirement that leads to that very specific gameplay style. I'd rather there be some sort of happy medium where both styles were viable in their own situations.

Personally I don't believe it would make the game feel 1-dimensional. But it's hard to judge a system that not only isn't in practice yet, we don't know barely anything about.

If you aren't twisting, then you are staring, and if you are staring you are incredibly easy to kill and will die quickly, even against mechs not boating lasers.

And yeah, mechs staring at each other in a DPS race sounds pretty 1-dimensional to me.

It's funny you say that you want both styles to be viable, because they are, you just have to know when it's appropriate to stare and keep your DPS going. That is why you see dakka Mauler, Dires and Jagermechs in competitive play and churning out 1000 damage in public matches.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 01 May 2016 - 11:48 PM.

[H I A S]

I leave cover in front of 5+ Mechs, dont twist and im dead in seconds!!!11
Its not me, it's the game, so pls lower TTK!!!11

PGI will bring again a new hard Skillcap because all the bitching in the Forum.

[Deathlike]

Dingo Red, on 01 May 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

See, my opinion is that I'm not a big fan of the fire then twist gameplay in the first place. Because it's that requirement that drives the requirements for a 'mech to be able to alpha a large chunk of damage, then duck away/twist. And invalidates everything else.

Torso Twisting has ALWAYS been the #1 feature in EVERY MW game.

If you don't do it, you'll never succeed. Period. End of story.

[Gas Guzzler]

Deathlike, on 01 May 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

Torso Twisting has ALWAYS been the #1 feature in EVERY MW game.

If you don't do it, you'll never succeed. Period. End of story.

That's funny I seem to remember the "Torso twist or die" phrase from the MW2 training instructor... is that where that was from?

[GreyNovember]

Deathlike, on 01 May 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

Torso Twisting has ALWAYS been the #1 feature in EVERY MW game.

If you don't do it, you'll never succeed. Period. End of story.

Is this campaign or multiplayer?

Because like HELL if AI followed rules about how well they could hit you if you twisted your damaged CT away from them.

[Sjorpha]

Yeah, it's a pretty strange idea to be honest.

Especially as the problems can be addressed by tweaking the systems we have.

You could simply lower the base heat cap so that there isn't enough capacity for huge back to back laser alphas, then increase dissipation a little.

IMO it's ok that big alphas are possible, just as long as they aren't sustainable. Being able to fire 1 big 60 dmg laser alpha would be fine if you were forced to either hide or chainfire after the first one.

It also makes no sense if big mech can't fire bigger alphas than small mechs, there should definitely be a difference. I'm a bit afraid that they will cap alphas at the same levels for all weights.

Another worry is the damage to range balance, SRMs are really only worth it because they allow a big short range low heat alpha strike at the cost of spread. If they cap SRM alphas the same as ERLL alphas for example, that's going to kill SRMs as a competitive option I think.

What they should try IMO: Remove ghost heat, lower base heat cap to 30, increase base dissipation by 50%.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

That's funny I seem to remember the "Torso twist or die" phrase from the MW2 training instructor... is that where that was from?

The use of the word "scrub" is used a lot, either way.

Watching it now to look for it.

[Xhaleon]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 May 2016 - 11:43 PM, said:

@Xhaleon I wasn't describing ghost heat, that's just how hot the mech is. 2 alphas then on to LPLS at a slower cooldown to keep from shutting down.

Alright, I see what you meant. Still the BK is at the top of the heavy heap for good reasons even though its hardpoints are mounted so low. The efficiency of its typical laser loadouts would speak for themselves even if it didn't have those quirks. It can also keep up that kind of attack combo at full speed up until the third round where it starts to overheat. Could be a few seconds of difference that can shift the balance the other way, it's just a thought experiment for now.

[Deathlike]

GreyNovember, on 02 May 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

Is this campaign or multiplayer?

Because like HELL if AI followed rules about how well they could hit you if you twisted your damaged CT away from them.

Both.

I don't think AI really followed rules, but when you torso twist, the AI keeps firing to other sections of your mech as a natural consequence.

I mean, you should be doing that with actual players too, for obvious reasons.