194 replies to this topic

[Nyte Kitsune]

To answer the OP's original question, NO, IS mechs are not "Easy Mode", I find myself struggling to kill most clan mechs, the sheer amount of firepower and their longer ranges (Unless you're one of those hairbrained clanners that replaced all your long range weapons with SPL's.. twits) makes them a tough customer, plus "nearly" all clan mech have max armor. Now I will agree that an IS mech without a XL engine is tougher to kill, but a smart clan pilot will just aim CT, they have more firepower, they should use it wisely and not "Assume" a mech has an XL. Legs are also good target, no matter which side you're on.

Now if you want "Easy Mode" just pilot a Jenner IIc (4-6 SRM 6's) or its slightly less effective cousin the Oxide (4 SRM 4's).

[Lightfoot]

Some have mentioned Clan FF and Endo and this should be non-fixed equipment for balance's sake. The fixed engine is all that is needed to balance any Clan mech. It's just ruining a lot of Clan mechs to have endo and ff fixed.

[Gyrok]

Nyte Kitsune, on 13 May 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

To answer the OP's original question, NO, IS mechs are not "Easy Mode", I find myself struggling to kill most clan mechs, the sheer amount of firepower and their longer ranges (Unless you're one of those hairbrained clanners that replaced all your long range weapons with SPL's.. twits) makes them a tough customer, plus "nearly" all clan mech have max armor. Now I will agree that an IS mech without a XL engine is tougher to kill, but a smart clan pilot will just aim CT, they have more firepower, they should use it wisely and not "Assume" a mech has an XL. Legs are also good target, no matter which side you're on.

Now if you want "Easy Mode" just pilot a Jenner IIc (4-6 SRM 6's) or its slightly less effective cousin the Oxide (4 SRM 4's).

I am inclined to disagree...my 5 best KD mechs are ALL IS mechs to the very last man. The closest clan mech is 0.3 lower than the 5th one, and comes in at a whopping #7 at this point. (Considering that until I played WHMs and BKs, there were actually 3 clan mechs in the top 5...that is significant).

Keep in mind, I have 2200 matches played in TWs, 1900 in HBRs, and 1300 in DWs.

I also have 600 in WHMs, 600 in HGNs, and 800 in VTRs. I am slacking on BKs and only have about 350 matches in those...

I think you are doing it wrong...because the numbers do not lie.

Edited by Gyrok, 13 May 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[Gigashot]

Yeaaaa I play Clan on FW and it is very frustrating. IS are tankier, have good Assault mechs, and generally just roll face in FW. I watch IS players on twitch and see them firing insane amounts of WUB repeatedly for barely any heat I'm like "woah mine doesn't do that. how are you doing that. this explains a lot."

[GreenHell]

My three best mechs are my RFL-3N, my HBK-4P, and my HBK-IIC-A (in that order). Does that mean they're easy mode? I don't think so. It's all about playing what works for you.

[Adamski]

Gigashot, on 13 May 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yeaaaa I play Clan on FW and it is very frustrating. IS are tankier, have good Assault mechs, and generally just roll face in FW. I watch IS players on twitch and see them firing insane amounts of WUB repeatedly for barely any heat I'm like "woah mine doesn't do that. how are you doing that. this explains a lot."

If you want more wub for less heat, just give up the extra range and alpha, easy enough to do with the cSPL

If you want more range and higher alpha, you have to pay a heat tax for that. (Because you certainly aren't paying a tonnage or crit slot tax).

Lightfoot, on 13 May 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Some have mentioned Clan FF and Endo and this should be non-fixed equipment for balance's sake. The fixed engine is all that is needed to balance any Clan mech. It's just ruining a lot of Clan mechs to have endo and ff fixed.

The upgrades have to be fixed, otherwise you eliminate the reason that the Grand Summoner was designed. (To get a SMN with Endo)

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 13 May 2016 - 06:38 PM, said:

If you want more wub for less heat, just give up the extra range and alpha, easy enough to do with the cSPL

If you want more range and higher alpha, you have to pay a heat tax for that. (Because you certainly aren't paying a tonnage or crit slot tax).

You also pay a mobility tax with nerfed skill tree, a range tax with nerfed fall off, a duration tax with significantly longer burn times and higher ballistic shell counts, a customization tax with locked internals that render some mechs obsolete before they ever drop, a structure tax because most IS mechs have significantly more structure than an equal tonnage clan mech, and a ST speed loss tax if you lose a ST...nevermind you are under fire when you lose it and unlikely to escape any way.

Quote

The upgrades have to be fixed, otherwise you eliminate the reason that the Grand Summoner was designed. (To get a SMN with Endo)

If that helps you sleep at night...whatever...

[Adamski]

Gyrok, on 13 May 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

You also pay a mobility tax with nerfed skill tree, a range tax with nerfed fall off, a duration tax with significantly longer burn times and higher ballistic shell counts, a customization tax with locked internals that render some mechs obsolete before they ever drop, a structure tax because most IS mechs have significantly more structure than an equal tonnage clan mech, and a ST speed loss tax if you lose a ST...nevermind you are under fire when you lose it and unlikely to escape any way.



If that helps you sleep at night...whatever...

Gyrok, have you even looked at the game files recently?

There is NO, ZERO, NADA falloff on the Clan Large lasers. Neither the ER nor the Pulse.

For the Medium & Small lasers, even the most heavily quirked IS mechs cannot match the optimal range, especially not when its buffed by a TC1 or larger.
(eg: KTO-GB has 10% energy range and 25% medium pulse range, when combined with a range module, it has an optimal of 319, which is still SHORT of the 330m that every Clan mech gets with a medium pulse)
They only are able to match the maximum range, which means when neither weapon is doing meaningful damage, they are both doing pitiful damage together.

If you want to get butthurt over the isLPL doing 11 damage at 365 range in 0.67s
Boated its 33 damage in .67s for 21 tons, 6 crits, 3 hardpoints
49.25 damage per second of beam
the cMPL can do 8 damage in .85s with 330m range (356m with a TC1)
Boated its 48 damage in .85s for 12 tons, 6 crits, 6 hardpoints
56.47 damage per second of beam

The rest of your whining is both uninformed and repetitive.

[GreenHell]

Gyrok, on 13 May 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

-Snip- and a ST speed loss tax if you lose a ST...

Still better than a ST death tax.
Just sayin.

[Yosharian]

HBK vs HBR: one is a brawler, while the other is a poking machine. Not exactly a fair comparison. Obviously the HBK will destroy the HBR in close quarters, but the HBR is vastly superior at poking with, for example, gauss + lasers.

[JigglyMoobs]

Adamski, on 13 May 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Gyrok, have you even looked at the game files recently?

There is NO, ZERO, NADA falloff on the Clan Large lasers. Neither the ER nor the Pulse.

For the Medium & Small lasers, even the most heavily quirked IS mechs cannot match the optimal range, especially not when its buffed by a TC1 or larger.
(eg: KTO-GB has 10% energy range and 25% medium pulse range, when combined with a range module, it has an optimal of 319, which is still SHORT of the 330m that every Clan mech gets with a medium pulse)
They only are able to match the maximum range, which means when neither weapon is doing meaningful damage, they are both doing pitiful damage together.

If you want to get butthurt over the isLPL doing 11 damage at 365 range in 0.67s
Boated its 33 damage in .67s for 21 tons, 6 crits, 3 hardpoints
49.25 damage per second of beam
the cMPL can do 8 damage in .85s with 330m range (356m with a TC1)
Boated its 48 damage in .85s for 12 tons, 6 crits, 6 hardpoints
56.47 damage per second of beam

The rest of your whining is both uninformed and repetitive.

These range numbers don't really matter if the BLK can choose to avoid engaging at sub-optimal distances.

The one that really matters is the IS LPL and ML durations, which are stunningly short. So short that some people don't even see them fire until after they hit. Unless fight is at extreme range in a organized competitive group, BLK is straight out superior.

My own experience is completely consistent with IS currently being better than clan.

My most beloved clan mech is my TBR Prime.

Over 880 games in recent record I had W/L of 1.66, KD of 2.03, Damage per match of 484

My favorite IS mech currently is the BLK-6, which I just purchased in April.

Over 199 games I averaged W/L of 1.80, KD of 3.17, Damage per match of 532

There has been many mechs that have died to it without even getting a proper shot off:

Like this:



Or this:



And its structure, heat and maneuverability quirks are just as important. Try living through this fight in a clan mech.



Or how about this, cuts through 6 mechs like it was nothing.



So yeah, I think IS right now has a slight edge. Not an insurmountable one, but it's there.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 14 May 2016 - 12:18 AM.

[DarthHias]

Nyte Kitsune, on 13 May 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

To answer the OP's original question, NO, IS mechs are not "Easy Mode", I find myself struggling to kill most clan mechs, the sheer amount of firepower and their longer ranges (Unless you're one of those hairbrained clanners that replaced all your long range weapons with SPL's.. twits) makes them a tough customer, plus "nearly" all clan mech have max armor. Now I will agree that an IS mech without a XL engine is tougher to kill, but a smart clan pilot will just aim CT, they have more firepower, they should use it wisely and not "Assume" a mech has an XL. Legs are also good target, no matter which side you're on.

Now if you want "Easy Mode" just pilot a Jenner IIc (4-6 SRM 6's) or its slightly less effective cousin the Oxide (4 SRM 4's).

Lol what? Every Mech has nearly max armor. Mechlab.
Then you hamper your own argument by talking about legs. Is it perhaps even easier to remove a certain component with shorter burn duration lasers and PPFLD ballistics? Think about it.
This also applies to focusing all your dmg on the CT as you kindly advise clan players to do.

[LordKnightFandragon]

IS Quirks have gone to far really. I was playin around in the Warhammer which i just unlocked the basics and my Hellbringer which I believe ive got elited, and the Warhammer is far more agile. It can alpha quite a bit more. Only thing it isnt, is faster in raw KPH.

The Warhammer survives in the battlegrounds 100x better. My Warhawk is dead inside of 3 bursts, I cant twist enough in that thing, plus, given how slow it twists compared to the WHM, it gets nuked. Its a bigger target, with HUGE side torsos.....

[GreenHell]

I posted in another thread about Clan LPL vs IS LPL, but really it comes down to this. Clan lasers and IS lasers aren't even remotely the same. C-LPL has the range and burn time of IS-ERLL. C-MPL is the closest in range and burn time to IS-LPL (a touch longer iirc, like .15). Clan weapons are different, and IMO should be different. They're not the same weapons anymore, and you shouldn't treat them like they are.

[Corrado]

Gyrok, on 13 May 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

With quirks and modules, IS ML = 324m and 648m at max range.

CERML optimal range with TC1 and range module is 450ish.

i dont even know why someone is still taking max range in account. i try to never waste time shooting over optimal range unless im in a ******** stall long range map like alpine. not going to trade shots when can't hit for full or almost full damage. it's plain ********.

so r3tard4d word gets censored... PGI is so sensible...

Edited by Corrado, 14 May 2016 - 12:41 AM.

[Aresye]

Adamski, on 13 May 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

If you want to get butthurt over the isLPL doing 11 damage at 365 range in 0.67s
Boated its 33 damage in .67s for 21 tons, 6 crits, 3 hardpoints
49.25 damage per second of beam
the cMPL can do 8 damage in .85s with 330m range (356m with a TC1)
Boated its 48 damage in .85s for 12 tons, 6 crits, 6 hardpoints
56.47 damage per second of beam

Tonnage, crits, and hardpoint arguments are completely irrelevant when quirks are added to negate those disadvantages.

For example, don't have enough tonnage for more heat sinks? That's okay, this mech has -10% heat generation. Can't fit a larger engine? That's okay, this mech has +30% torso twist speed, 50% acceleration, and 30% deceleration quirks. IS XL too risky? That's okay, this mech also has 20 points of extra structure, both left and right torsos.

Lower max range is another factor missing in your comparison, as the IS LPL has a normal linear dropoff that's 2x its optimal range. The Clan MPL does not, which makes it a very poor weapon to try and trade with IS LPLs with. Your comparison is also with stock range on the LPL, not the 10% energy range quirk most of the laser boating IS mechs have, making the CMPL an even worse idea for trying to trade with IS LPL.

You're also not factoring heat into the equation...

Triple IS LPL is pretty much the foundation for any IS laser boat, which is 33 damage for 21 heat. You would need 4 Clan MPLs to achieve a similar damage output (32), which comes out to 24 heat. To have an Executioner match the 5 LPL damage output of a Banshee, it would need ~ 7 CMPLs, which would generate 42 heat (minus ghost heat), compared to the Banshee's 35 heat (minus ghost heat). Add on top of that the fact that the Banshee also has -10% energy heat generation, a higher heat cap, better hardpoints, and a higher torso yaw angle.

Corrado, on 14 May 2016 - 12:40 AM, said:

i dont even know why someone is still taking max range in account. i try to never waste time shooting over optimal range unless im in a ******** stall long range map like alpine. not going to trade shots when can't hit for full or almost full damage. it's plain ********.

Just because you don't shoot past optimal doesn't mean everybody doesn't. In fact it's rather stupid to not shoot someone when you can, even if it's just scratch damage.

Like it or not, it has a substantial impact on balance. The optimal range nerfs on Clan small and medium class lasers were pretty big.

Edited by Aresye, 14 May 2016 - 12:49 AM.

[Corrado]

Aresye, on 14 May 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

Tonnage, crits, and hardpoint arguments are completely irrelevant when quirks are added to negate those disadvantages.

For example, don't have enough tonnage for more heat sinks? That's okay, this mech has -10% heat generation. Can't fit a larger engine? That's okay, this mech has +30% torso twist speed, 50% acceleration, and 30% deceleration quirks. IS XL too risky? That's okay, this mech also has 20 points of extra structure, both left and right torsos.

Lower max range is another factor missing in your comparison, as the IS LPL has a normal linear dropoff that's 2x its optimal range. The Clan MPL does not, which makes it a very poor weapon to try and trade with IS LPLs with. Your comparison is also with stock range on the LPL, not the 10% energy range quirk most of the laser boating IS mechs have, making the CMPL an even worse idea for trying to trade with IS LPL.

You're also not factoring heat into the equation...

Triple IS LPL is pretty much the foundation for any IS laser boat, which is 33 damage for 21 heat. You would need 4 Clan MPLs to achieve a similar damage output (32), which comes out to 24 heat. To have an Executioner match the 5 LPL damage output of a Banshee, it would need ~ 7 CMPLs, which would generate 42 heat (minus ghost heat), compared to the Banshee's 35 heat (minus ghost heat). Add on top of that the fact that the Banshee also has -10% energy heat generation, a higher heat cap, better hardpoints, and a higher torso yaw angle.


Just because you don't shoot past optimal doesn't mean everybody doesn't. In fact it's rather stupid to not shoot someone when you can, even if it's just scratch damage.

Like it or not, it has a substantial impact on balance. The optimal range nerfs on Clan small and medium class lasers were pretty big.

the exe play style is different than the banshee. the exe is really tanky and mobile. energy in the arms means it can chew anything in some maps (dunno how much damage and how many kills i done in the Bog, rushing C4 D4 top with the exe shooting right down, or by rushing good positions in mining collective).

yes it does have low hardpoints, but 6CMPLs tight in the right arm does really hit with no spread. the left arm can equip other lasers or 2xASRM6.

due to the different geometry and different gameplay, banshee and exe arent comparable.

about the scratch damage, i'd save the heat dissipation for a near optimal range engagement, rather than shoot everything that moves with those 10ish damage near max range.

Given that i still like to play the wubshee, the hopper 5P, the topdog...

[Walsung]

JigglyMoobs, on 13 May 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

The one that really matters is the IS LPL and ML durations, which are stunningly short.

you seem to miss the damage per second that was given for you

against a moving target (and not some moron face staring you)
say realistically people can hold a location for 0.5 seconds which leaves

ISLPL doing ~25 damage to a location and 8 points splashed over an adjacent location (21 heat 21 tones 6 slots)
CLMPL doing 28 damage to a location with 20 points splashed over adjacent locations (36 heat 12 tones 6 slots)

with the lower weight and the vastly increased space efficiency of clan endo you can fairly easily close the heat difference if you chose to (or add in more weapons for a bigger alpha which is why so many clanners run so hot).

leaving you with a fairly similar amount of focused damage with a roughly 50% bonus as splash

note of all clan vs IS weapons this is probably one of the most favorable for IS

if you perform the same match ups with cl SPL vs IS MPL in fact any other laser it comes out as even more favorable for the clan. AC's are more difficult to compare due to even more different handling characteristics but if you crunch the numbers hard based on probability of hitting a location it still favors clan

[Aresye]

Walsung, on 14 May 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

but if you crunch the numbers hard based on probability of hitting a location it still favors clan

I've already crunched the numbers. It heavily favors IS.

Aresye, on 07 May 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

For this comparison I will be comparing the Black Knight w/ 3 LPL + 5 ML against the Ebon Jaguar w/ 2 CLPL + 5 CERML (has become more popular ever since the DHS changes allowed for faster dissipation). The range used for this comparison is the range at which the EBJ can output it's full 61 damage alpha, which will end up being 446m (405m x 1.1 for Range 5 Module). The BK will have the Range 5 Module as well for its medium lasers.

At 446m the EBJ will spit out 61 damage over 1.15s
At 324m the BK will spit out 58 damage over 0.77s

Looks like the EBJ is the clear winner, right? Hold that thought...

The CERML no longer has x2 optimal for its maximum range anymore, whereas the BK does, and the 10% range quirk + the Range 5 Module doesn't just affect optimal range, but MAX range as well, giving the BK a maximum range of 648m compared to the EBJ's 688m.

To truly figure out a damage/tick value, we need to calculate the EXACT damage that the BK will do at exactly 446m (EBJ's optimal range), and how we're going to do that is we're going to use simple linear interpolation for both the IS LPL and IS ML values on a BK with a Range 5 Module (Note: Only the ML have the R5 Module. This is assuming the BK is running LPL 5 Cooldown Module as recommended by metamechs).

D₁ = Full Damage
D₂ = 0 Damage
R₁ = Optimal Range
R₂ = Maximum Range

Let's do the medium lasers first. The BK has 5 of them, giving us 25 damage (D₁) @ 324m (R₁), and 0 damage (D₂) @ 648m (R₂). We're trying to find D₃, the damage value @ 446m (R₃).

To find the slope, we're going to use (D₂ - D₁) / (R₂ - R₁) = s, which we will then plug in to the equation D₃ = D₁ + s(R₃ - R₁) to find the damage.

(0 - 25) / (648 - 324) = -0.08
D₃ = 25 + -0.08(446 - 324)
D₃ = 15.24

Now that we have the medium lasers, let's add up the 3 LPLs and plug them into the same equation and solve for D₃ once again.

(0 - 33) / (803 - 402) = -0.08
D₃ = 33 + -0.08(446 - 402)
D₃ = 29.48

Add both D₃ values together and we get 44.72, so to make things easier we'll round that up and say that at 446m (EBJ's optimal range for full damage), the BK does ~ 45 damage.

Now we need to calculate laser durations in relation to tick rate.

From what we know, the tick rate for MWO's public servers is 30, based off a dev post from long ago after a hitreg fix went in. PGI said their servers were operating at a lower tick rate than their normal 30 (this post has since been removed).

Overall the tick rate doesn't matter btw. You could use damage per second, damage per 0.1s, etc. The overall ratio will be the same. I just like to use tick rate because it sounds fancier, and I like to be pretentious at times.

Using our 45 damage @ 446m we calculated from earlier, and adding in the -10% laser duration quirk the BK has, we get a total of 45 damage in 0.77s @ 446m.

To convert this to damage/tick, first I'm going to convert the laser duration and tick values into milliseconds:

1000ms / 30 ticks = 33.3333333
0.77s = 770ms

Now it's just simply divide 45 damage by 770ms and multiply by 33.3333333 to get damage per tick.

(45 / 770) x 33.3333333 = 1.948

So the BK does ~ 1.95 damage per tick.

To figure out the EBJ, we'll simply plug in our numbers from wayyyyy earlier, using 1.15s for the full duration to get 61 damage.

(61 / 1,150) x 33.3333333 = 1.768

So the EBJ does ~ 1.77 damage per tick.

Conclusion:
There is absolutely no doubt about it. Despite the EBJ having a higher alpha and greater range on its CERMLs, at its OPTIMAL RANGE, where it does a FULL 61 points of damage, the BK STILL has a higher damage output.

After that range the damage dropoff for the EBJ's CERMLs is much sharper than the BK's, so the BK will trade more favorably until it reaches it's maximum range for its LPLs, at which point the EBJ will then have the advantage in being able to shoot its 2 CLPLs to get some long range scratches in.

Good luck trying to take down a 75t IS mech with structure and torso twist rate quirks with only 2 CLPLs at scratching distance though. There's a very narrow window of a couple hundred meters where the EBJ will hold the advantage. Once the BK closes that range your favorable trades are over.

Honestly if you're wanting to compete against BK's in a laser vomit EBJ you're much better off with either a triple-CLPL or quad-CERLL loadout, and simply staying the f*** away.

[Corrado]

well that's a really good analisys. thanks for sharing!