194 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Daycrist Bloodfang, on 22 May 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

Actually Clan DHS do not have near the capacity as IS DHS

IS DHS CAP 1.5 with .14 dissapation

Clan DHS CAP 1.1 with .15 dissapation

The math I did included the differences. All 'Mechs have a 50 base cap with a 250+ engine. Now multiply whatever the faction DHS cap is times the number of extra heatsinks, and you get my numbers for heat cap. Those numbers favor the Clan side, now account for the better dissipation on the Clan side.

Clans still come out ahead, which is why PGI nerfed the cap in the first place.

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Clan weapons heat wise are not much hotter than their IS varients......hell some IS varients are actually far better than their Clan counterparts i.e. Large Pulse Lasers

Clan variants also have more range. In the case of LPL, a lot more range (~64% more). The heat is intended to be a soft limiter, making the longer ranged weapons harder to use effectively up close and forcing to either take a gun better suited for that range or try to stay outside of that bracket. All longer range energy weapons generate more heat, it's a rule that is universally true within MWO.

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IS LPL 11 Dmg at .67 Duration with a 3.25 cooldown

Clan LPL 13 Dmg at 1.12 duration (about twice the burn time) with a 3.25 cooldown the only benefit is the almost 2 times optimal range over IS varient

Damage is why you get longer durations. 7 damage over 1.15 seconds is better than 5 damage over 0.9 seconds on the ML. 6 damage over 0.75 seconds is exactly identical to 4 damage over 0.5 seconds for SPL. 6 damage over 0.6 seconds for MPL is better than 8 over 0.85, but neither gun sees much use at the upper levels. 5 damage over 1 second is far and away superior to 3 damage over 0.75 seconds for SL. 11 damage over 1.5 seconds is more than 9 over 1.25, and again neither is good.

Given that in almost all of the Clan weapons have naturally better damage per tick, and given that total cycle time is mostly irrelevant for lasers, it's really not a huge sin that the LPL gets to be really good at its short range. The LPL could perhaps use a marginally longer burn, but the cLPL and LPL are one of the best cases of balance between tech factions. They both excel within their brackets; but they do not directly compete.

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Of course this doesn't factor in all the IS mech quirks for Shorter energy duration, shorter energy cooldown, less energy heat, energy range boosts..... the list goes on.

And some of those quirks need to be reigned in, while others need to be rolled into the weapon stats themselves.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 May 2016 - 08:05 PM.

[Novakaine]

Does anyone feel that Clan mechs are easy mode?
Seriously about every 1.5 weeks this comes up.

[Daycrist Bloodfang]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 May 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

The math I did included the differences. All 'Mechs have a 50 base cap with a 250+ engine. Now multiply whatever the faction DHS cap is times the number of extra heatsinks, and you get my numbers for heat cap. Those numbers favor the Clan side, now account for the better dissipation on the Clan side.

Clans still come out ahead, which is why PGI nerfed the cap in the first place.



Clan variants also have more range. In the case of LPL, a lot more range (~64% more). The heat is intended to be a soft limiter, making the longer ranged weapons harder to use effectively up close and forcing to either take a gun better suited for that range or try to stay outside of that bracket. All longer range energy weapons generate more heat, it's a rule that is universally true within MWO.



Damage is why you get longer durations. 7 damage over 1.15 seconds is better than 5 damage over 0.9 seconds on the ML. 6 damage over 0.75 seconds is exactly identical to 4 damage over 0.5 seconds for SPL. 6 damage over 0.6 seconds for MPL is better than 8 over 0.85, but neither gun sees much use at the upper levels. 5 damage over 1 second is far and away superior to 3 damage over 0.75 seconds for SL. 11 damage over 1.5 seconds is more than 9 over 1.25, and again neither is good.

Given that in almost all of the Clan weapons have naturally better damage per tick, and given that total cycle time is mostly irrelevant for lasers, it's really not a huge sin that the LPL gets to be really good at its short range. The LPL could perhaps use a marginally longer burn, but the cLPL and LPL are one of the best cases of balance between tech factions. They both excel within their brackets; but they do not directly compete.



And some of those quirks need to be reigned in, while others need to be rolled into the weapon stats themselves.

The problem is with Clan Omni mechs you can't fit the DHS needed to compare with IS Mechs and their own DHS not without a significant loss to firepower.

As for the Range difference between Clan LPL and IS LPL I look at optimal range due to that being where the full damage of them counts. Clan has an optimal range of 700 and IS 350 but rarely in FW do you tend to get the ability to take full advantage of the clan range. A good IS 12 man will close the range fast on Clan mechs to make their 400m range useful, as for the burn duration difference I would say a .67 burn time for 11 dmg is better than 1.15 for 2 damage more. As I said some IS varients tend to be better than their clan equivalents not all of them.

[Chuck Jager]

THE ORDER IS

• Mech and its tonnage and hardpoints plus hitboxes
  
• Quirks
  
• and last is clan or IS and this only applies in FW or some imaginary love of lore

Clan and IS is the last thing I ever think about when looking at mechs unless in CW.

Common clan erlmlas were at 780-800m for almost 2 years so IS should have some time in the sun. Maybe we should look at bringing laser duration closer or giving clan back a bit more range. ATM the balance is better now, and this is from a clan player.

[Daycrist Bloodfang]

Chuck Jager, on 22 May 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

THE ORDER IS

• Mech and its tonnage and hardpoints plus hitboxes
  
• Quirks
  
• and last is clan or IS and this only applies in FW or some imaginary love of lore

Clan and IS is the last thing I ever think about when looking at mechs unless in CW.


Common clan erlmlas were at 780-800m for almost 2 years so IS should have some time in the sun. Maybe we should look at bringing laser duration closer or giving clan back a bit more range. ATM the balance is better now, and this is from a clan player.

True but this was mostly comparing IS vs Clan mechs as far as ease of play

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

It seems to me that the biggest disadvantage of IS mechs has been that there are a huge number of variants that just suck ***, and a fair number of chassis require you to grind them out in order to master the one variant that's good (Enforcer, for instance).

[Lykaon]

Novakaine, on 22 May 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

Does anyone feel that Clan mechs are easy mode?
Seriously about every 1.5 weeks this comes up.

When I find myself in a solo queue losing streak I switch to clantech because with those mechs I can with more frequency and reliability get a high enough match score that even if my team loses I make C-bills and don't lose PSR standing.

Getting over a 300 match score in an Arctic Cheetah is cake. The cheetah packs a punch (30 firepower with over 40% heat efficency is easy to attain) the clan XL vastly improves survival chances and the ECM is just added cake when it comes to ambush and evasion.

So in a way yes I do find that some clan mechs are easy mode.

[SmoothCriminal]

Just to throw my own subjective experience into the ring here - having been trying to level KDKs for the past few days whenever I wanted a more forgiving mech/easier game I dropped back into a BLK or WHM. So IMHO at present I feel IS heavies are superior. For now. From my own personal experience.

[Gyrok]

Lykaon, on 23 May 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

When I find myself in a solo queue losing streak I switch to clantech because with those mechs I can with more frequency and reliability get a high enough match score that even if my team loses I make C-bills and don't lose PSR standing.

Getting over a 300 match score in an Arctic Cheetah is cake. The cheetah packs a punch (30 firepower with over 40% heat efficency is easy to attain) the clan XL vastly improves survival chances and the ECM is just added cake when it comes to ambush and evasion.

So in a way yes I do find that some clan mechs are easy mode.

Ironically...most people I know play clan mechs for hard mode, and when they absolutely need to win a match, they drop in an uber quirked IS heavy mech, or fast, well quirked IS SRM medium.

So, in a way, everyone I know finds that most IS mechs are easy mode.

Edited by Gyrok, 23 May 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[mogs01gt]

SmoothCriminal, on 23 May 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

Just to throw my own subjective experience into the ring here - having been trying to level KDKs for the past few days whenever I wanted a more forgiving mech/easier game I dropped back into a BLK or WHM. So IMHO at present I feel IS heavies are superior. For now. From my own personal experience.

Only two IS heavies are even worth bringing to the battlefield. Clan heavies still dominate the fields, and more of them...There isnt a brawling heavy better than the TBR.

Edited by mogs01gt, 23 May 2016 - 06:39 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

My Clan Heavies and Kodiaks disagree with this topic

[Gyrok]

knightsljx, on 23 May 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

My Clan Heavies and Kodiaks disagree with this topic

All of my IS mechs agree with it.

[Triordinant]

knightsljx, on 23 May 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

My Clan Heavies and Kodiaks disagree with this topic

The whole topic is an opinion. Everyone is free to agree or disagree, but it simply doesn't matter either way.

[Jon Gotham]

I'm an Sphere player...and I'm not sure I can take this IS bias seriously....

[Mechwarrior1441491]

If they stopped all this balance treading water now for 2 years and did work on other crap, the
game would be better. Best it's ever been.

Edited by GAGONMYlOCK, 30 May 2016 - 12:41 PM.