189 replies to this topic

[Tsig]

Krivvan, on 20 May 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

The forums are always months behind meta changes.

To recap. LASER VOMIT IS NOT SOLELY DOMINANT. It hadn't been since december. A lot of people still run it because they don't know better or haven't changed yet. Brawl has been strong since december, and more recently dakka is reaching the same level.

The best Assaults pre Kodiak were the Atlas, mauler, and banshee. Reflecting brawl, dakka, and laser vomit respectively.

Stuff like flamers are now almost mandatory for low heat brawl builds. Every brawl griffin should run flamers now.

Even lights have changed drastically. The Cheetah is not the top light anymore albeit still good for niche uses. It loses in combat compared to numerous other lights though from wolfhounds and spider 5ks to Jenners and Jenner iics.

When I make my glorious comeback to MWO, I will have many questions about the Meta, Krivvan. Not playing for 8-9 months can really throw off my edge.

[H I A S]

Mavairo, on 19 May 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

BAHAHHAHA flamers.

Sorry anyone putting flamers on a mech, and then any community that then votes it the best mech the best in the game... has zero credibility.

I think i will drop out of the forum.
game understanding much

Edited by arivio, 20 May 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[AssaultPig]

the KDK-3 is a really nice mech, but best in the game, eh. The question is best in the game at what, I suppose.

The spirit bear is fun to drive but not anything terrible remarkable.

[Tsig]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Everytime i go into meta mechs i find their builds terribly underarmed, underarmored or just straight up weird.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a1dd02b12ac23dc
This is their kdk3

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a47f31931a2b403
This is what i run.

Dropped 2 tons of ammo since i rarely have a chance to dispose of 600 rounds and unless someone presents me at least 5 close to 2000 dmg matches ill say its impossible to expend it all if you aim well.
Dropped engine to 350, 5kph wont be that much of a problem and added 4 mlas for backup if they jam or against agile lights also put armor on arms so you can use them as shields when you feel the need to do so.

Except that yours is slower, not even half as heat efficient, and not as agile. If it works for you, that's great, but if you're gonna put some energy on there, flamers are probably better.

[The Bill]

kapusta11, on 20 May 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

No dual Gauss dual LPL build? 56 damage for just 20 heat at 660m is not good enough nowadays?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 May 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

No, it's not.

Hey Kap, you could run that build asymmetrically on the -4, IIRC.

G's build for that variant has dual PPCs in the RA. The LPLs wouldn't be far off. Trouble is, this makes it a glorified ground-bound Highlander, with relatively low speed, and requiring moar face time.

Compared to the SB or -3, or even the -2, well, it's not fantasmagorical. Still manages to embarrass a lot of mechs on paper though.

[AssaultPig]

don't see the point of the mlas on the kdk-3

there's never a time that you'd rather spend the heat firing them rather than firing the AC10s, and they cost you a decent amount of ammo/engine/heatsink.

I didn't really like the gauss/lpl fit on the -2. Using a 100 tonner as a backline jump-poker just seems like a waste to me.

[davoodoo]

Tsig, on 20 May 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

Except that yours is slower, not even half as heat efficient, and not as agile. If it works for you, that's great, but if you're gonna put some energy on there, flamers are probably better.

Yes 5kph less,
I dont fire all weapons at once instead i choose what will help me the most in situation i got into.
Uacs alone are maybe 5% less efficient than presented build.
And then i avoid outright brawl, rather staying at 400m and showering enemy in lead which seems to also been their goal, looking at unarmored arms.

But hell lets drop energy completely, add xl375 instead of 380, 1kph less, drop 2 tons of ammo and armor the **** out of legs and arms.
Still an improvement in my eyes.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 May 2016 - 01:00 PM.

[pattonesque]

AssaultPig, on 20 May 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

don't see the point of the mlas on the kdk-3

there's never a time that you'd rather spend the heat firing them rather than firing the AC10s, and they cost you a decent amount of ammo/engine/heatsink.

I didn't really like the gauss/lpl fit on the -2. Using a 100 tonner as a backline jump-poker just seems like a waste to me.

there's a point where extra ammo and heatsinks have diminishing returns. the ML on that give you some damage potential if your UACs jam and let you shoot down UAVs

he does have an all-UAC KDK as well. Both are legit.

[JigglyMoobs]

Xetelian, on 19 May 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

I've always regarded meta mechs as a starting point towards finding 'viable' builds.

Never thought their ranking was anything more than a person's opinion and not reflective of the whole of the community.

The opinion of one man who generally knows what he's doing, vs a community who generally doesn't.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 20 May 2016 - 01:14 PM.

[Metus regem]

LegendaryArticuno, on 19 May 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Is Metamechs a joke now? They ranked this loadout as a Tier 1 build?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a36ec7096583d6

Not my first choice for the hero Kodiak... if I were to get one, I'd likely do this to it:

SPIRIT BEAR

[Ultimax]

Krivvan, on 20 May 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

The forums are always months behind meta changes.

To recap. LASER VOMIT IS NOT SOLELY DOMINANT. It hadn't been since december.

This, seriously.

These forums are FIVE MONTHS BEHIND THE META MINIMUM.

The really awful part is when PGI takes feedback from here and uses it to balance, even though this zone is a half a year behind what is actually happening in the game because it still hasn't trickled down to them yet.

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Everytime i go into meta mechs i find their builds terribly underarmed, underarmored or just straight up weird.

That's because you don't have the game knowledge to understand what you are looking at.

GMan has several areas on his site.

A list purely for comp, a list for PUG queues meta and lists for each faction (also PUG queue focused).

Make sure you pick the right list for your purpose, then tweak the build to suit your tastes.

Most advanced players and comp players will have already worked out similar builds before GMan even posts it, many use his site to compare and tweak or ignore.

It's a resource for ideas and discussion, its not an instruction manual.



However looking at his site and saying the builds look terribly "wierd" or "underarmored" or "underarmed" means you probably are not playing at a level yet where those build decisions will make sense to you.

Edited by Ultimax, 20 May 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Aresye, on 20 May 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Aresye irl

[JigglyMoobs]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Everytime i go into meta mechs i find their builds terribly underarmed, underarmored or just straight up weird.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a1dd02b12ac23dc
This is their kdk3

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a47f31931a2b403
This is what i run.

Dropped 2 tons of ammo since i rarely have a chance to dispose of 600 rounds and unless someone presents me at least 5 close to 2000 dmg matches ill say its impossible to expend it all if you aim well.
Dropped engine to 350, 5kph wont be that much of a problem and added 4 mlas for backup if they jam or against agile lights also put armor on arms so you can use them as shields when you feel the need to do so.

He has the extra ammo because he survives long enough to use it all. You add on the lasers because you die too quickly.

I was watching solahma on twitch last night. It was seriously >1000 gmg matches one after another. Your dakka is both your damage output and your defense. No one should see your face without dakka exploding right in their face. That takes a lot of ammo.

If I were running it, I'd probably go for 2 ml just to shoot down uavs, but not more. Ammo is life for a dakka mech.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 20 May 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[lpmagic]

JigglyMoobs, on 20 May 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

He has the extra ammo because he survives long enough to use it all. You add on the lasers because you die too quickly.

I was watching solahma on twitch last night. It was seriously >1000 gmg matches one after another. Your dakka is both your damage output and your defense. No one should see your face without dakka exploding right in their face. That takes a lot of ammo.

If I were running it, I'd probably go for 2 ml just to shoot down uavs, but not more. Ammo is life for a dakka mech.

^ purty much this......8 tons of ammo is not enough, are you always going to get 1500-2k damage, well no, but, as jiggly pointed out, the real problem for a dakka dude is face time, so if your going to give in and give face time, best be spouting damage most of that time. you WILL miss a few shots here and there, better to have too much then not enough. The heat threshold for those 4 meds would devalue the build so badly it would not be worth it, and heck yes the 5KPH makes a difference, for instance the fastlas can bomb some serious damage but goes like 62, the bear goes basically 70kph that is the standard speed of any standard engine heavy, with the firepower of an assault, also, the speed helps you climb hills, back pedal to cover, elude lrms in the dingbat queue, there are so many reasons that this becomes more viable with speed it's not even funny, if I wanted to go 62, I would run an atlas or a banshee....even 2 kph matters in positioning, none of these beasts are designed as tanding turrets......

[Bishop Steiner]

AssaultPig, on 20 May 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

don't see the point of the mlas on the kdk-3

there's never a time that you'd rather spend the heat firing them rather than firing the AC10s, and they cost you a decent amount of ammo/engine/heatsink.

I didn't really like the gauss/lpl fit on the -2. Using a 100 tonner as a backline jump-poker just seems like a waste to me.

well, I use em for one thing only, killing UAVs. Torso elevation is not sufficient for that often times. And because I have the tonnage. (Technically, I run 4x ERSL) but thats cuz living the PUGlife you can't rely on having smart enough teammates to cover for shortcomings like you should be able to in Teamplay.

Remember, just as Comp Play and Normal Play ain't the same, Group Play vs Solo has different considerations often, too.

JigglyMoobs, on 20 May 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

He has the extra ammo because he survives long enough to use it all. You add on the lasers because you die too quickly.

I was watching solahma on twitch last night. It was seriously >1000 gmg matches one after another. Your dakka is both your damage output and your defense. No one should see your face without dakka exploding right in their face. That takes a lot of ammo.

If I were running it, I'd probably go for 2 ml just to shoot down uavs, but not more. Ammo is life for a dakka mech.

And ...this.

[davoodoo]

Ultimax, on 20 May 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

This, seriously.

These forums are FIVE MONTHS BEHIND THE META MINIMUM.

The really awful part is when PGI takes feedback from here and uses it to balance, even though this zone is a half a year behind what is actually happening in the game because it still hasn't trickled down to them yet.






That's because you don't have the game knowledge to understand what you are looking at.

GMan has several areas on his site.

A list purely for comp, a list for PUG queues meta and lists for each faction (also PUG queue focused).

Make sure you pick the right list for your purpose, then tweak the build to suit your tastes.

Most advanced players and comp players will have already worked out similar builds before GMan even posts it, many use his site to compare and tweak or ignore.

It's a resource for ideas and discussion, its not an instruction manual.



However looking at his site and saying the builds look terribly "wierd" or "underarmored" or "underarmed" means you probably are not playing at a level yet where those build decisions will make sense to you.

I provided example of kdk3, where theres simply too much ammo to expend it while tonnage from this could be used for armor.

Then we have kgc with only 240 rounds for 4uac5 which from my experience will run out sometime after half of the match if youre doing fine. Strangely enough jm6dd with 3uac5 got 270 rounds for whatever reason.

Then ebj(tier 2) and tbr-s(tier 1) builds, same weaponry, but for extra 10 tons you basically dropped half ton of ammo, added extra heat sink, single jump jet, got lower mount on gauss and made yourself a slightly bigger target.
JJs are nice and all but i dont think its worth changing into timber wolf.

JigglyMoobs, on 20 May 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

He has the extra ammo because he survives long enough to use it all. You add on the lasers because you die too quickly.

I was watching solahma on twitch last night. It was seriously >1000 gmg matches one after another. Your dakka is both your damage output and your defense. No one should see your face without dakka exploding right in their face. That takes a lot of ammo.

If I were running it, I'd probably go for 2 ml just to shoot down uavs, but not more. Ammo is life for a dakka mech.

600 rounds, 10 dmg per 3 rounds, it will be 2k dmg if everything hits.

Also this is rather hot build and uacs jam.
Even assuming user developed jedi mind trick and can use it to make enemies ignore him, it will be rather hard to expend all ammo during a match unless you literally aim to peel each and every enemy arms, leg and both st's.

Cool as hell is uac5 kgc is reasonably capable of expending 300 rounds or 75 alphas during match and this thing is supposed to fire all 4 50 times and not win the match by then??

I still packed 1600 dmg worth of ammo in my build, 1000+ matches are still possible.
Also i tried going into forest colony testing grounds and expending 480 rounds of uac10, avoiding ghost heat, in complete safety and without shutdowns it took me over 2,5 minutes of fire and cooling to expend 480 rounds. Though i still dont have full elite unlocked.
Compared to that my elite 000b expended its 300 rounds in mere 1:30 minute and with ghost heat it never went over 50% heat. It jammed quite often though. And this is acceptable lvls of ammo for dakka while it still gets backup lasers.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 May 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[Straker XL]

pattonesque, on 20 May 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Kodiak is p. great

Flamers are excellent on brawlers

A lot of y'all are like six months behind

It wouldn't be so grating if they weren't so damn cocksure about it too. It smacks of "I don't like this guy who gets attention and thinks he's superior telling me what to run, so I'm automatically going to disagree with him without even testing his builds in defiance!"


You're gonna love a couple jj's on the 2 when you draw a map like Canyon Network.

Energy weapons on the Spirit Bear are crap. Run more ammo. Think of it as the heaviest, by far, striker in the game.

Energy weapons on the 3 are crap. Run more ammo. The 3 is a license to print 1,000 damage games.

Yes the Kodiak has the Big Honkin' CT Blues. Sucks to have even more glass on the field, but you'll just have to play it carefully. Maybe they will reconfigure the CT hitbox or add structure. I dunno, it has a lot of firepower...

[0111101]

davoodoo, on 20 May 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

I provided example of kdk3, where theres simply too much ammo to expend it while tonnage from this could be used for armor.

One ton of UAC10 ammo has 20 shots. Divided by 4 UAC10s... 5 shots per ton.

Recycle time with an Elited mech that has UAC10 cooldown module = 2.075 seconds between shots.

5 multiplied by 2.075 = 10.375 seconds of firing time per ton of ammo.

If you double tap without jamming, you can expend a ton of ammo in half that time. Best case scenario would 5.1875 seconds of firing time per ton of ammo.

So with, for example, 10 tons of UAC10 ammo being fed through 4 UAC10s, your firing time before expending all ammo is between 103.75 seconds without double tapping at all and 51.875 seconds when double tapping with no jams.

That math should speak for itself.

[Dingo Battler]

I find the hate on Gman and metamechs *very* disrespectful. Gman is one of the top players in one of the top comp teams, who has done INVALUABLE work in helping those who want to improve themselves. MWO is complicated enough, and he has done A LOT of work to help us. A lot of us would be lost if we didn't follow his builds, and work from there.

True, his builds wouldn't suit everyone 100% (What did you expect?), because if you would use your brain for once, instead of slapping LRMs on everything, you would realise that everyone is different. At the very least, his builds are a very good base to build something out of, and even following his builds 100% would guarantee your mech will be marginally good.

Half of those criticising and calling his build trash don't even have a tier displayed. I'm glad the forums allowed us to show tiers, so we could tell the actual trash (people who don't show their tiers) from good advice. Show your tiers trash. I respect tier 5s more than you, because at least they have guts. You have none. Bunch of cowards.

And here you come criticising his builds. Maybe if you actually followed them, you could show your tiers. Even if you showed your tier, but are still criticising him, what have you done for the community? Is your team top ranked? Are you top ranked? Do you spend money, time and effort maintaining a website, and making builds for hundreds of mechs?

Disgraceful.

Edited by KBurn85, 20 May 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[davoodoo]

0111101, on 20 May 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

One ton of UAC10 ammo has 20 shots. Divided by 4 UAC10s... 5 shots per ton.

Recycle time with an Elited mech that has UAC10 cooldown module = 2.075 seconds between shots.

5 multiplied by 2.075 = 10.375 seconds of firing time per ton of ammo.

If you double tap without jamming, you can expend a ton of ammo in half that time. Best case scenario would 5.1875 seconds of firing time per ton of ammo.

So with, for example, 10 tons of UAC10 ammo being fed through 4 UAC10s, your firing time before expending all ammo is between 103.75 seconds without double tapping at all and 51.875 seconds when double tapping with no jams.

That math should speak for itself.

Cooldown time, each uac10 produces 3 heat + whatever you get from ghost heat if you fire more than 2 at once.

Basically best time i got with 600 ammo on forest colony is 3:17 though my kodiak is not yet elited.
In practice however youll be pressured to put more dmg and you wont manage heat so nicely as i did in those tests, also there will be time where you wont have anything to fire on because youre relocating, youre pinned down by fire or enemy before you decided to die as i remind you ct of even as7-k can take at best 217 points of dmg and you have 11 other jokers in your team which will also strive to take one down.

Also you didnt take into account the fact that jammed uac wont fire for quite a while.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 May 2016 - 03:28 PM.