1017 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

...
But, being the logical type, I wrote it off to the fact that my Kodiaks weren't fully unlocked yet. I guess that's the problem, eh? The OMGOPPLZNERF!!! crowd isn't logical.

The thing that isn't logical is that the "3", for example, came with a list of buffs while we had known before release that it's gonna perform well because of its good qualities. It turned out that it performs even better than expected. Do you see now why people, including me (to be honest I don't have a Kodiak), want PGI to tone down its (mainly the "3") buffs? Stripping its buffs completely isn't out of the question if the "3" turns out still sitting in T1.

For an analogy, see Arctic Cheetah. The 'Mech had the same case and people wanted PGI to tone down its positive buffs. Thankfully PGI listened.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 26 May 2016 - 08:50 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 26 May 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

I was actually thinking of Age of Conan's open-world PvP when I wrote that. A lot of players loudly rejoiced when their demand for a "Blood and Gore" server was obliged to by Funcom, only to abandon it in droves for the safety of the PVE-only servers when the real PvP folks ripped through them.

oh, I'm sure a lot of wannabe tryhards do that. Lets face it, PvP sounds fun on the surface, but any server that gets going usually ends up peopled with UltraComps who love nothing more than PUGfarming. And if one either is not capable of playing at that level, or, as I tend to, find Metaplay in most games to be dull and repetitive (yes, it defines who has better twitch skills, but so does whack-a-mole), go off for more "fun" results.

I know, for some the concept of Fun being anythign less than ultimate PvP domination is odd, but there it is. I mean, even crazier, some of us find getting all worked up and insano about a playing a Game (unless one is getting paid to) kind of....silly.

Go figure.

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

My question would be why the Kodiaks got buffed before being released, especially the "3" since it has a number of good qualities for boating 4B. What if we remove their buffs and see how they perform?

Let's pick the "3" as an example. If it's still Tier 1 after being stripped of all of its buffs, then I think you'd agree that this state is better, no?

so again.. Punish Paul for Jack's alleged crimes?

Because we have seen the pitchfork masses complaining about the 2, 4, SB.....


Oh wait.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

...
so again.. Punish Paul for Jack's alleged crimes?

Because we have seen the pitchfork masses complaining about the 2, 4, SB.....

Oh wait.

I don't think that it's a good analogy. Let's take the "3' as a poster boy because it performs so well. You know that it shouldn't have come with positive quirks. Come on!

[Roadkill]

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

The thing that isn't logical is that the "3", for example, came with a list of buffs while we had known before release that it's gonna perform well because of its good qualities. It turned out that it performs even better than expected.

It doesn't. It performs really well in an ideal environment, but any Mech will perform really well in its ideal environment.

I'd like to see how it performs in a neutral environment before PGI nerfs it into oblivion. And yes, people are asking for nerfs that would make it trash tier. Not you, necessarily, but there are people out there doing it, and given PGI's past history it's a major concern. Right now we have 1 good Kodiak, maybe 1-2 that are okay, and 2 that are bad. If PGI does its usual thing, we'll have 1-2 that are maybe okay and 4 trash tier.

Quote

Do you see now why people, including me (to be honest I don't have a Kodiak), want PGI to tone down its (mainly the "3") buffs?

I understand why you're mistakenly coming to that conclusion, yes.

The fact that you had to add the clause - (mainly the "3") - is in fact one of the biggest problems. People aren't just asking for the KDK-3 to be toned down, people are also asking to have all Kodiaks nerfed. That's nuts. The KDK-1 and KDK-5 need to be buffed, not nerfed. I suspect that the KDK-2 does, also. (I just haven't had time to level up the KDK-2 yet.)

Seriously. Think about what PGI did on release. They gave the KDK-3 standard quirks and left what were clearly going to be the two worst variants with no quirks at all. Do you really think that they're going to suddenly and miraculously become adept at fine-tuning quirks? Especially when all of the ruckus is based on flawed data derived from an ideal environment?

Seriously?

All I'm willing to admit right now is that the KDK-3 seems like it is probably a good Mech. But I think we need at least a couple of weeks of normal play to make that call.

The KDK-1, KDK-5, and probably the KDK-2 are weak if not outright bad.

The KDK-4 is probably fine as-is.

The Spirit Bear is a tough call... for me it seems simultaneously weak and potentially good, but due to the wacked-out environment over the weekend I can't tell which is which.

Which gives the Clans... 1, that's right 1 good Assault to compete with the MX90, Wubshee, and Fatlass.

Want to nerf the KDK-3? Then nerf the MX90, Wubshee, and Fatlass, too. Because all three of them are better than the KDK-3.

Kodiaks are new. Give things a chance to settle down before crying for nerfs.

[Willard Phule]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chicken Littles wont stop until the KDK3 is nerfed into obscurity, so since we know it's going to happen, can we just get it done with?

And since we know PGI can't do anything without going to extremes, just get ready for it to be worthless.

My only real question is after the 3 falls, which poor KDK will earn the ire of the Butthurt masses next? I only ask, because I'd like to know before spending time, money, effort, etc, mastering versions that are just going to get Highlander'd.

I am guessing the next target of the OP whinefest will be the Spirit Bear, which of course will also get the inevitable "P2W" tag?

Come on, man. You're not new. You know how this goes.

The release for real money means that it's OP and gives whoever shoveled out the cash an advantage. Next is the MC release....that's when the CT hitboxes get a pass. Then comes the cbill release, at which point it gets nerfed to unserviceability.

It's how it always works. It's how it's worked since the beginning.

Edited by Willard Phule, 26 May 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[1453 R]

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

I don't think that it's a good analogy. Let's take the "3' as a poster boy because it performs so well. You know that it shouldn't have come with positive quirks. Come on!

Are the KDK-1 and KDK-5 horrible overperforming pug-stomping Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Demon-Beasts that need to be hammered down as well?

I can't ask Twinky, who has somehow become the ultimate sole authority on all things Kodiak...but I imagine that if you asked him, he'd say that they were bad and in need of help.

One thing people frequently forget in this game - the 100-ton weight point is bad. Being that massive Is. A. Disadvantage. The 'ideal' assault weight is right around 80 to 85 tons, given that the ideal overall 'Mech weight is the 70-85 ton range for heavier, weapon-laden variants. 100-tonners suffer from being physically gargantuan, as well as having to sink a ludicrous amount of tonnage into their engines if they want to be able to keep up with particularly spritely underground bunkers. Lighter assault 'Mechs can often carry comparable armaments to 100-tonners at similar speeds with better innate mobility and much smaller target profiles, while also carrying (somewhat) more functional HoverJets, when and as applicable.

There is a REASON the Atlas was given somewhere in the realm of thirtyish tons of free durability, phantom engine rating, and six additional weapon modules. What makes people think the Kodiak is perfectly fine without one single ounce of assistance in a weight class utterly dominated by SuperMegaUltraQuirked monstrosities with an effective weight anywhere between a hundred to a hundred and thirty tons?

How well is anyone doing in their KDK-1 and KDK-5? Would not those two be pretty reasonable evidence that naked 100-tonners just aren't really viable at this stage in MWO's akward, twisted development?

[Hit the Deck]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

It doesn't. It performs really well in an ideal environment, but any Mech will perform really well in its ideal environment.

I'd like to see how it performs in a neutral environment before PGI nerfs it into oblivion. And yes, people are asking for nerfs that would make it trash tier.

Would removing its buffs make it trash tier? Just imagine if it came without any buff.

1453 R, on 26 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Are the KDK-1 and KDK-5 horrible overperforming pug-stomping Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Demon-Beasts that need to be hammered down as well?

it seems you don't understand what's happening. Let me make it simple:

• people had known that the KDK-3 would perform well before release - PGI released it with quirks - very surprise, wow - it turned out that it performs even better than expected and is superior to her sisters - remove quirks or tone them down
  
• KDK-1 and 5 didn't even register on people's radar - PGI released them without quirks because of "lazor meta" - much lulz - nobody cares

Edited by Hit the Deck, 26 May 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[IQcreditscore]

After encountering all of them many times over the kdk3 is far better than the others. The problem is the dot (damage over time) and pgi's crappy physics. "O no a 2 foot tall rock" that you stepped over turning a corner that your mech suddenly can't back over without a 5 second pause. Annnnnnnd you're dead.

The 4 uac's are a problem but there is no good way to fix the problem. PGI will not remove hardpoints afaik. Nerfing the uac10/5 just make other mechs too crappy to play. Pulling quirks that have nothing to do with the offensive output are useless. I can see pgi increasing the jam chance, but getting that right is a problem. I foresee them breaking the kdk3 by overdoing that option (the only one they will probably take). Honestly removing one ballistic hardpoint and replacing it with a energy would balance the kdk3 more than an rng based nerf on the jam chance. Of course all of a sudden people who normally don't give 2 squirts about lore will use the lore argument. Mobility nerfs will do nothing unless you turn the kdk3 into the direwhale and we don't want that.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 26 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Are the KDK-1 and KDK-5 horrible overperforming pug-stomping Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Demon-Beasts that need to be hammered down as well?

I can't ask Twinky, who has somehow become the ultimate sole authority on all things Kodiak...but I imagine that if you asked him, he'd say that they were bad and in need of help.

One thing people frequently forget in this game - the 100-ton weight point is bad. Being that massive Is. A. Disadvantage. The 'ideal' assault weight is right around 80 to 85 tons, given that the ideal overall 'Mech weight is the 70-85 ton range for heavier, weapon-laden variants. 100-tonners suffer from being physically gargantuan, as well as having to sink a ludicrous amount of tonnage into their engines if they want to be able to keep up with particularly spritely underground bunkers. Lighter assault 'Mechs can often carry comparable armaments to 100-tonners at similar speeds with better innate mobility and much smaller target profiles, while also carrying (somewhat) more functional HoverJets, when and as applicable.

There is a REASON the Atlas was given somewhere in the realm of thirtyish tons of free durability, phantom engine rating, and six additional weapon modules. What makes people think the Kodiak is perfectly fine without one single ounce of assistance in a weight class utterly dominated by SuperMegaUltraQuirked monstrosities with an effective weight anywhere between a hundred to a hundred and thirty tons?

How well is anyone doing in their KDK-1 and KDK-5? Would not those two be pretty reasonable evidence that naked 100-tonners just aren't really viable at this stage in MWO's akward, twisted development?

while I don't put much stock in Tourney Results due to artificial nature of the environment, and the 5-6 assaults per team the MM allowed for the weekend, the KDK variants ranked in order:

1) KDK3 (5172, slightly higher than the Dread Hellslinger did without perfect conditions)
- No surprise. Ideal environ for huge meaty targets that can't spread burst uac fire as effectively. Oddly for all the damage, I noticed actual KILLs to be unusually low on most posted Screenies for dmg done. After Twinky and Victoria, noticeable dropoff, though still clearly the best variant.

2) Spirit Bear (4440)
- SplAtlas with speed, but without durability. MASC makes is a great ambush hunter, and splat SRM dmg again farms high dmg, inefficient kills.

3) KDK1 (4014)
- After psichih0lic. a full 600 dmg dropoff. 600 dmg. Think about that.

4) KDK2 (3906)
- No shock, Soy taking the top spot with a *gasp* probably Poptart Bear. After him, averaged out quite a bit lower.

5) KDK4 (3619)
- A full 1500 dmg UNDER the KDK3. Most of the leaderbaord in the low to mid 2000s..... literally ARCHER/RIFLEMAN level performance is a 100 ton Clan Mech. http://mwomercs.com/...s?t=201603mechs http://mwomercs.com/...s?t=201602mechs

6) KDK5 (3409)
- Wow. Much impressed. Again, Archer/Rifleman performance.

So yeah, those 2,4 and SB are massive overperformers for their evil pre-quirks. Of course, they feel way behind the Warhammer and Marauder leaderboards (WHM-6D outperformed literally every KDK but the 3, and was only a couple 100 behind it, where are the cries to Nerf?), and the bottom 2 are basically performing like an Orion IIC-C.

Much wow.

[Wing 0]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

while I don't put much stock in Tourney Results due to artificial nature of the environment, and the 5-6 assaults per team the MM allowed for the weekend, the KDK variants ranked in order:

1) KDK3 (5172, slightly higher than the Dread Hellslinger did without perfect conditions)
- No surprise. Ideal environ for huge meaty targets that can't spread burst uac fire as effectively. Oddly for all the damage, I noticed actual KILLs to be unusually low on most posted Screenies for dmg done. After Twinky and Victoria, noticeable dropoff, though still clearly the best variant.

2) Spirit Bear (4440)
- SplAtlas with speed, but without durability. MASC makes is a great ambush hunter, and splat SRM dmg again farms high dmg, inefficient kills.

3) KDK1 (4014)
- After psichih0lic. a full 600 dmg dropoff. 600 dmg. Think about that.

4) KDK2 (3906)
- No shock, Soy taking the top spot with a *gasp* probably Poptart Bear. After him, averaged out quite a bit lower.

5) KDK4 (3619)
- A full 1500 dmg UNDER the KDK3. Most of the leaderbaord in the low to mid 2000s..... literally ARCHER/RIFLEMAN level performance is a 100 ton Clan Mech. http://mwomercs.com/...s?t=201603mechs http://mwomercs.com/...s?t=201602mechs

6) KDK5 (3409)
- Wow. Much impressed. Again, Archer/Rifleman performance.

So yeah, those 2,4 and SB are massive overperformers for their evil pre-quirks. Of course, they feel way behind the Warhammer and Marauder leaderboards (WHM-6D outperformed literally every KDK but the 3, and was only a couple 100 behind it, where are the cries to Nerf?), and the bottom 2 are basically performing like an Orion IIC-C.

Much wow.

lots of people never learn how to get around things do they.... This was long time coming and you kiddies didn't realize it till now? if you didn't buy the Kodiak and you are complaining about it being OP, just shut up. Clan pilots don't have anything useful in terms of quirks. Deal with it.

Edited by Wing 0, 26 May 2016 - 10:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wing 0, on 26 May 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

You never learn how to get around things do you.... This was long time coming and you kiddies didn't realize it till now? if you didn't buy the Kodiak and you are complaining about it being OP, just shut up. Clan pilots don't have anything useful in terms of quirks. Deal with it.

Umm...learn to read? How am I complaining about it?

I'm bloody defending the KDK.

*SMH*

[Wing 0]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 May 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Umm...learn to read? How am I complaining about it?

I'm bloody defending the KDK.

*SMH*

I know you are but, half of that post of mine isn't directly at you. EDIT: its directed to anyone complaining about the Kodiak.

Edited by Wing 0, 26 May 2016 - 10:18 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wing 0, on 26 May 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

I know you are but, half of that post of mine isn't directly at you.

OK, my bad. No real demarcation, made it look like you thought I was complaining about KDKs OP.

Carry on, lol!

[Roadkill]

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Would removing its buffs make it trash tier? Just imagine if it came without any buff.

Is it really that far out of balance as it is?

Would removing the buffs on the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90 make them trash tier? Why do you want to nerf the KDK-3 and not the three premier (and better) Inner Sphere Mechs?

Why is it bad for the Clans to have one competitive Assault Mech?

When are the Highlander IIC and Orion IIC going to get the buffs that they need to be on par with Inner Sphere Assaults?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

[1453 R]

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

it seems you don't understand what's happening. Let me make it simple:

• people had known that the KDK-3 would perform well before release - PGI released it with quirks - very surprise, wow - it turned out that it performs even better than expected and is superior to her sisters - remove quirks or tone them down
  
• KDK-1 and 5 didn't even register on people's radar - PGI released them without quirks because of "lazor meta" - much lulz - nobody cares

The KDK-1 and KDK-5 didn't even register on people's radar?

Then. Why. Are. People. Demanding. The. Entire. Kodiak. Chassis. Get. Giganerfed. Into. Oblivion?


Because that's mostly what Bishop, and Roadkill, and myself, and several others are trying to forestall - the destruction of the entire Kodiak chassis over a few days of KDK-3 butthurt in one of Piranha's game-warping leaderboard weekend events.

Do the KDK-1 and KDK-5 need negative quirking, the way half the screamers are demanding they get because the KDK-3 bad-touched them? If not...WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO GET PIRANHA TO DO THAT TO THEM?

[Mystere]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Which gives the Clans... 1, that's right 1 good Assault to compete with the MX90, Wubshee, and Fatlass.

I think you need to get one thing straight. The Clans cannot -- I repeat, cannot -- ever have any nice things ever again. Anything new that even looks remotely "nice" needs to be nerfed into the ground. Period. There are no "and"s, "if"s, "or"s, or "but"s.



<This decades-long anti-Clan Crusade really makes me boil inside.>

[Hit the Deck]

Roadkill, on 26 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Is it really that far out of balance as it is?

Would removing the buffs on the Fatlass, Wubshee, and MX90 make them trash tier? Why do you want to nerf the KDK-3 and not the three premier (and better) Inner Sphere Mechs?

Why is it bad for the Clans to have one competitive Assault Mech?

When are the Highlander IIC and Orion IIC going to get the buffs that they need to be on par with Inner Sphere Assaults?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

1453 R, on 26 May 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

The KDK-1 and KDK-5 didn't even register on people's radar?

Then. Why. Are. People. Demanding. The. Entire. Kodiak. Chassis. Get. Giganerfed. Into. Oblivion?


Because that's mostly what Bishop, and Roadkill, and myself, and several others are trying to forestall - the destruction of the entire Kodiak chassis over a few days of KDK-3 butthurt in one of Piranha's game-warping leaderboard weekend events.

Do the KDK-1 and KDK-5 need negative quirking, the way half the screamers are demanding they get because the KDK-3 bad-touched them? If not...WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO GET PIRANHA TO DO THAT TO THEM?

It's hard to communicate. So let me try to make myself clear once again:

• let's just talk about the KDK-3
  
• it's already well designed and should not ship with any quirk, also we need to know its base performance
  
• yet PGI gave it quirks
  
• performs even better than anticipated
  
• now it's even harder to dissect so that we could know what makes it really good

Obviously the first thing to do is to remove the quirks and see how it performs and then readjust from there. But we have already sunk too deep in this quirk system by quirking everything so it becomes harder to see where everything stands without factoring the quirks.

[Roadkill]

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

It's hard to communicate. So let me try to make myself clear once again:

• performs even better than anticipated

It doesn't, so why do you keep saying this? Everyone pretty much expected it to be a beast with quad CUAC/10. Surprise! It is.

Quote

Obviously the first thing to do is to remove the quirks and see how it performs and then readjust from there. But we have already sunk too deep in this quirk system by quirking everything so it becomes harder to see where everything stands without factoring the quirks.

Are we talking rainbows & unicorns ideal land, or reality?

If the former, there are all kinds of things I'd put in front of even something as simple as removing the quirks from the KDK-3. The entire quirk system needs to be re-done and re-balanced. In fairy tale ideal land, adjusting the KDK-3 isn't significant enough to even rate mentioning.

If the latter, there's no chance it'll be that simple. Furthermore, the need for buffs for the KDK-1 and KDK-5 is much greater than the perceived need to nerf the KDK-3. The KDK-3 is only out of line with other Kodiaks. As mentioned repeatedly, the Inner Sphere has several Mechs as good as the KDK-3 so it really isn't a balance problem. If you're going to make minor tweaks, let's make them in ways that improve balance, not make it more 1-sided.

[Mystere]

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

For an analogy, see Arctic Cheetah. The 'Mech had the same case and people wanted PGI to tone down its positive buffs. Thankfully PGI listened to the loud and incessant whining.

FTFY, because that is what actually happened.

Hit the Deck, on 26 May 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Would removing its buffs make it trash tier? Just imagine if it came without any buff.

So, remove it's quirks merely for the sake of removing them?

Edited by Mystere, 26 May 2016 - 01:04 PM.

[Ashram]

I agree with op, nerf them. Gauss were nerfed because of the insane damage they can do with a click of the button. 4x ac10s just tear lights in half in a single volley with little consequence. It's making me wanna take another year off of the game and come back and see if it's any better when all the bears have stopped ******** on everything.