1017 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

This made me curious, so I ran a quick test on Forest Colony.

Single alpha = 20% heat
Double tap after half a second = 38% heat
Double tap too fast = 52% heat

So no, it isn't all that cool if you're trying for "80 point alphas". However it's very cool in 2-by-2 mode fired every ~0.6 seconds. Continuous stream of damage for as long as RNGesus loves you.

and as you slow down your RoF, and thus dmg to the enemy (the big QQ to begin with), you also expose yourself to less controlled return fire into your Gingantor Sized CT.

Sounds like a Win/Win to me!

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

This argument is so dishonest I really don'tknow if even you believe it.

So the Wubshee has 2 hardpoints, with LPLS in them it's 22pts of damage every 2.5 seconds at cockpit level. The rest are all significantly lower. The Wubshee doesn't take own a KDK3 at close range - it just has a chance at close range as opposed to none at 300m+. If you're not totally oblivious and don't face hump a fresh Atlas you can win that one too. If you can't close on a Mauler in a KDK again, you've got issues. You should be able to cripple or kill him before he's done more than 75 pts to you - at best.

The point is that they're not comparable, the KDK3 is better. That some people are bad pilots and thus can't exploit that isn't a good argument.

Both relative to the cockpit and what they can clear for obstacles they're just above mid-torso on the Mauler. Try to poke with the Mauler, it's more about settling in and waiting for someone to walk into view and 1/2 of your mech is exposed. You can peek head and shoulders in. KDk3 and not feed shots into a hill.

and still be realistically exposing about the same amount of mech as the Mauler. Since the KDK is freaking MASSIVE.

[Triordinant]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

you also expose yourself to less controlled return fire into your Gigantor Sized CT.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

If the Mauler was as fast and maneuverable and had cxls that fit with the 5xAC5 build then absolutely. That would be broken with existing quirks. If you then moved the hardpoints to shoulder height I'd ask wtf PGI was thinking.

It is actually better with 3 AC5s and 2 UAC5s, or 4 UAC5s and 2 AC2s. The latter is 29 DPS, and enough ammo for 8v8. Though it is a turret, it even surpasses the great DW for sustained output, cause quirks.

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It has none of that though. It's incredibly slow and clumsy, mid torso hardpoints and oh yeah, it's not doing 80 pts over about a second. it's doing 50.

Mid torso? Seriously? Those hardpoints can be seen right below the cockpit. That is the biggest thing. It is also *significantly* shorter and slimmer than the KDK, too.

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So to clarify, if the Mauler performed like the KDK3 I would absolutely say nerf it because it would not be balanced. If the Phoenix Hawk comes out with Spider hitboxes, 30% heat gen quirks and over the shoulder hardpoints I'll be calling BS as well. If the Cyclops comes out and happens to have its hardpoints mover to shoulder height, 40% ballistic cooldown and insane mobility quirks I'll call BS.

Ok, waiting for you to start up that thread about the MAL any day now. The MALs certainly do not need offensive quirks at all if the KDK is egregiously strong without offensive quirks...to the point you want to remove the only defensive quirks it got. Therefore, an IS dakka boat with PPFLD single projectile ballistics capable of the same/similar DPS must also be OP.

As soon as you ask for the MALs to get nerfed here in GD on the front page, I will join your crusade to nerf to the KDK3. Not before.

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Quit trying to make this about Clan vs IS or say that because the KDK3 is imbalanced the balanced mechs need nerfed too. That's all flat BS. On its face it's obviously imbalanced and the comp players, you know the people who play the edge of balance and have consistently identified balance issues in mechs.

Except you are overlooking the most egregious offender on the IS side that is capable of the same levels of destruction. Clan players put up with it thinking at some point we can also have nice things...but the more this goes on, we are going to have to stop looking the other way because the favor is not being returned.

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I get having a mech that dominates is fun. Being able to puke up 80 pts in a moment or two and hop into cover is obviously very cool and being able to poke and apply it from high mounts with a fast heavy or even a mediums mobility is great.

There are some very mobile, very powerful, mauler builds out there...

Just depends, since the KDK mostly dies to CT anyway...seems like the advantages that an XL gives would mean a lot less...

As for medium or heavy mobility...show me a KDK3 that moves at ~80-90 kph, or even 100+ if you are talking about mediums. Show me a medium that turns as poorly, has as low a top speed, and hill climbs as badly as a KDK3, and I will show you the worst mech in the game.

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

That would only be logical if they were comparable. They are not.

They are similarly powerful. Each is different, but the end result is a comparable level of power.

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If the Mauler was as fast and maneuverable and had cxls that fit with the 5xAC5 build then absolutely. That would be broken with existing quirks. If you then moved the hardpoints to shoulder height I'd ask wtf PGI was thinking.

With the range that 5xAC/5 gives it the Mauler doesn't need to be fast and maneuverable. You're looking for identical, and they don't need to be identical. Outside of the Kodiak's prime range bracket, the Mauler eats it for lunch because the 5xAC/5 is significantly more precise at range.

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It has none of that though. It's incredibly slow and clumsy, mid torso hardpoints and oh yeah, it's not doing 80 pts over about a second. it's doing 50.

In the Mauler's window it's doing 50 pretty much pinpoint while the KDK-3 is doing 80 spread.

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Quit trying to make this about Clan vs IS or say that because the KDK3 is imbalanced the balanced mechs need nerfed too.

I'm not. I'm saying that if the KDK-3 needs to be nerfed, then the 3 IS Mechs that are equally good also need to be nerfed.

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I get having a mech that dominates is fun.

It doesn't dominate for me or anyone else that I see in my matches. And yes, I see most of the T1 players at least occasionally. You know, the guys who dominate no matter what Mech they're in and so are effectively outliers.

I put up better numbers in both the Warhammer Black Widow and the KDK-SB. Looking at results in my games, it's no better than any other good Assault like the Fatlass, Wubshee, or MX90.

Also interesting to note that they've all but disappeared now that the silly weekend event is over. If they're so awesomely OP, why aren't people still playing them constantly before they get nerfed?

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Not balanced though. Silly to say it is.

No more imbalanced than the Fatlass, Wubshee, or MX90. Silly to ask for nerfs on it alone.

[Jackal Noble]

Hey worry not everybody, just got the preview for the upcoming hardpoint adjustment to the kdk-3. I think we're gonna be ok.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

This argument is so dishonest I really don'tknow if even you believe it. So the Wubshee has 2 hardpoints, with LPLS in them it's 22pts of damage every 2.5 seconds at cockpit level. The rest are all significantly lower. The Wubshee doesn't take own a KDK3 at close range - it just has a chance at close range as opposed to none at 300m+. If you're not totally oblivious and don't face hump a fresh Atlas you can win that one too. If you can't close on a Mauler in a KDK again, you've got issues. You should be able to cripple or kill him before he's done more than 75 pts to you - at best. The point is that they're not comparable, the KDK3 is better. That some people are bad pilots and thus can't exploit that isn't a good argument. Both relative to the cockpit and what they can clear for obstacles they're just above mid-torso on the Mauler. Try to poke with the Mauler, it's more about settling in and waiting for someone to walk into view and 1/2 of your mech is exposed. You can peek head and shoulders in. KDk3 and not feed shots into a hill.

Are you high??????

Every LPL on this build is cockpit level height. If you think I am lying, build it and go into the testing grounds...the only low mount is the bottom one, and the SLs move all 5 LPLs up to cockpit height.

[Jackal Noble]

HIGH ON LIFE...................DuuuuuuuUUUUUUUh.

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

You also hit it with the "nerfs". Nobody is asking for nerfs. Just removing quirks.

How do you even post stuff like this without your head exploding from the irony?

Removing quirks is a nerf.

[Bishop Steiner]

[Mcgral18]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

How do you even post stuff like this without your head exploding from the irony? Removing quirks is a nerf.

More of a de-buff than a nerf, as it returns it to a vanilla state

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

How do you even post stuff like this without your head exploding from the irony?

Removing quirks is a nerf.

Two conversations going on.

One is people trying to say there's a call for nerfing all the Kodiak, negative quirks, etc. Trying to "make it worthless". Not calling for that just the same balance as everything else by removing over the top quirks.

That's what it was in reference to.

If you're saying the KDK3 is "equal" to the others then why not set up some 1 v1 duels? Or are they not that sort of "equal"? So they're the sort of "equal" where the KDK3 is going to win more than 50% of the time?

The top tier players have all said it's better and needs quirks removed. Some have called for nerfs, as in more than that, but consistent comments are remove all the quirks.

Clearly they just don't get it as its equally as good as the other top tier assaults, just it's going to win over 50% of engagements with them.

@Gyrok -

Are you trying to argue that's a comparable build? 50/50 win rate?

I get that arguing anything involving Clans with you is a trip to crazy town but.... really?

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Would be nice to get side by side on game for actual clearance and relative distance from cockpit.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 27 May 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

More of a de-buff than a nerf, as it returns it to a vanilla state

"In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that makes something less effective or desirable. The word can be used as a verb to describe that change. The opposite of nerf is buff or revamp."

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

Would be nice to get side by side on game for actual clearance and relative distance from cockpit.

distance from cockpit is irrelevant compared to amount exposed to use. The KDK has a MASSIVE amount of Torso exposure ABOVE it's cockpit level. (Not Archer bad, but them traps is HUGE)

The amount needed to "clear guns" between the KDK and MAL is actually Micrometric. I guess I could measure the DWF and BNC, too, if I get bored.

DWF definitely has more exposure, but IRL one seldom gets to spend too much of the match hiding behind convenient hills anyhow. And the KDK exposes enough to fire to guarantee being hit back, easily. Moreover, the DWF does spread dmg better.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

"In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that makes something less effective or desirable. The word can be used as a verb to describe that change. The opposite of nerf is buff or revamp."


distance from cockpit is irrelevant compared to amount exposed to use. The KDK has a MASSIVE amount of Torso exposure ABOVE it's cockpit level. (Not Archer bad, but them traps is HUGE)

The amount needed to "clear guns" between the KDK and MAL is actually Micrometric. I guess I could measure the DWF and BNC, too, if I get bored.

DWF definitely has more exposure, but IRL one seldom gets to spend too much of the match hiding behind convenient hills anyhow. And the KDK exposes enough to fire to guarantee being hit back, easily. Moreover, the DWF does spread dmg better.

Question is how high its mounts are as that dictates how well it can peek.

That it shows big shoulders isn't a negative - the arms are there to shield. The guns themselves are big so it shows some torso but way less CT than the Mauler.

Which is okay, the Mauler, being way slower isn't a hill humping poker in any way. The KDK3 can lean up, pop off 80 pts and fade. Mauler takes longer to get into position and needs 3x the facetime to put out the same damage.

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

Two conversations going on.

One is people trying to say there's a call for nerfing all the Kodiak, negative quirks, etc. Trying to "make it worthless". Not calling for that just the same balance as everything else by removing over the top quirks.

That's what it was in reference to.

If you're saying the KDK3 is "equal" to the others then why not set up some 1 v1 duels? Or are they not that sort of "equal"? So they're the sort of "equal" where the KDK3 is going to win more than 50% of the time?

The top tier players have all said it's better and needs quirks removed. Some have called for nerfs, as in more than that, but consistent comments are remove all the quirks.

Clearly they just don't get it as its equally as good as the other top tier assaults, just it's going to win over 50% of engagements with them.

Mischief...since friggin' when has Piranha ever done anything subtly, with a light touch, or delicately?

I get that fearmongering and figuring that Piranha is going to to go Direstar on the Kodiak is not a logical argument. it is, however, a reasonable one based on the company's past history. Anything you manage to get done to the KDK-3 is also going to be done to every other Kodiak chassis, and it is likely to be done to egregious excess.

It's the Dire Whale issue all over again - a 'Mech shows up that can carry more than one big-bore Quack effectively and the forum proceeds to collectively lose its cotton-pickin' mind because Ultras are all essentially two autocannons glued together for a pittance of the weight. The problem is not the 'Mech - it's the guns. People keep asking "Would the KDK-3 be garbage without its quirks? I DON'T THINK SO, so remove the quirks! and replace them with gigantic RedQuirks hitting mobility and ballistic performance while you're at it because if something hits like a Whale it should move like a Whale, too!"

Lemme ask a different question - would anyone give one good g'damn fugg about the KDK-3 if it couldn't double-tap its ballistics? Tell me - how terrifying is a quad LBX-10 KDK-3, or a quad C-AC/10 model? The latter, especially - tell me how utterly pwnoobleratingly broken the KDK-3 is without double-tap autocannons? Does this configuration of KDK-3 fill you with existential terror? It's got all the precision of the Quack/10 model; all it loses is double-taps. Would this be a nightmare beast that could fell any other 'Mech in the game sans quirks?

I'm pretty sure the answer is "Eeeeeeeehhhhh......"

Destroying the Kodiak chassis - ruining the SPirit Bear the way you're working on, as well as the -1, -2, -4, and -5, is not going to solve the underlying problem. It'll just defer it until the next Clan 'Mech comes out that can effectively carry multiple heavy ballistics (you know, in September), at which point that 'Mech will earn an eternal screaming scheiss-storm until Piranha nerfs it into oblivion, too. #poorNightGyr

That 80 damage number gets thrown around a lot. Perhaps the issue is the weapons that allow it. We all knew big-bore Ultras were going to be a balance nightmare before the Clans hit - and now that their burst times aren't measured in rotations of the Sun, they are.

So why ruin an entire chassis that many have been pining over for many moons now when we all know the guns are the problem, not the platform the guns are on?

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Question is how high its mounts are as that dictates how well it can peek.

That it shows big shoulders isn't a negative - the arms are there to shield. The guns themselves are big so it shows some torso but way less CT than the Mauler.

Which is okay, the Mauler, being way slower isn't a hill humping poker in any way. The KDK3 can lean up, pop off 80 pts and fade. Mauler takes longer to get into position and needs 3x the facetime to put out the same damage.

no question is how much real estate is exposed, period, to clear all those torso guns. You can try to twist it, but it's not liek the KDK can see if it just pokes the top guns clear, and if it wants that "dread alpha" it needs to clear all 4 guns, which leaves you with the same amount of exposure for all practical purposes.

And no, the KDK doesn't magically fly up hills (The SB sorta can, and the 2...neither of which pack 2-4 UACs up high). It's moderately fast, but is still a HUGE mech meaning it craps up hills, too.

Have you even used one?

Also, which is exposing more CT, again?


sure the HECK ain't the Mauler. (not that either have massive in the perfect peek scenario)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2016 - 03:46 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

meaningful exposure to clear guns

[TheArisen]

I love my Mauler but it's not as good as a Kodiak.

You're all whining about it's DPS when to accomplish that DPS it has to take a small std engine where the Kdk can mount a larger cxl.

The Mauler is only going to win in certain situations, but in general use the kdk is simply better.

[MischiefSC]

What cover you can clear is important. Also the Mauler isn't a peeking mech. Too slow. Plays like a Dire.

The KDK3, having high mounts and great speed and with a double tap puts out 80 pts in the same time the most brutal.Laser boats do 60 at worse heat and shorter range. All of which are less maneuverable.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

That it shows big shoulders isn't a negative - the arms are there to shield. The guns themselves are big so it shows some torso but way less CT than the Mauler.

Both are not really true.

The arms on the Kodiak don't shield anything unless the opponent is really bad. Honestly the Mauler arms are better at shielding thanks to those fins.
Second, the CT on the Kodiak is bigger from the exposure (mainly due to the head) so no, the Mauler is still better on that end as well.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 May 2016 - 05:04 PM.