1017 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Both are not really true.

The arms on the Kodiak don't shield anything unless the opponent is really bad. Honestly the Mauler arms are better at shielding thanks to those fins.
Second, the CT on the Kodiak is bigger from the exposure (mainly due to the head) so no, the Mauler is still better on that end as well.

Also the side of the diamond CT (which juts out) being the CT hitbox makes it hard to spread damage...rear is also A LOT of rCT

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

If you're saying the KDK3 is "equal" to the others then why not set up some 1 v1 duels? Or are they not that sort of "equal"? So they're the sort of "equal" where the KDK3 is going to win more than 50% of the time?

At 600m, the KDK3 loses to the MX90.

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The top tier players have all said it's better and needs quirks removed. Some have called for nerfs, as in more than that, but consistent comments are remove all the quirks.

That is why Ultimax, Gas Guzzler, and Quicksilver Kalasa are all here telling you NOPE!

Boy, I was confused for a bit there...

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Clearly they just don't get it as its equally as good as the other top tier assaults, just it's going to win over 50% of engagements with them.

If it is equally good, it will not win over 50% of engagements, especially outside preferred engagement range. Which is it?

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@Gyrok -

Are you trying to argue that's a comparable build? 50/50 win rate?

I get that arguing anything involving Clans with you is a trip to crazy town but.... really?

Are we poking or hill peeking at 450-500m? Then BNC-3M will win more trades...so, yes.

If we are talking about some open ground scenario at 400m, then possibly not...that comes down to who sees who first, and if the Banshee is at heat cap, or, basically, if the Banshee can alpha twice to drop the Dakka bear.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 May 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Both are not really true.

The arms on the Kodiak don't shield anything unless the opponent is really bad. Honestly the Mauler arms are better at shielding thanks to those fins.
Second, the CT on the Kodiak is bigger from the exposure (mainly due to the head) so no, the Mauler is still better on that end as well.

I meant the big shoulders being exposed are not an issue as the arms are just there to shield. Probably had armor stripped anyway for ammo.

Are you saying the Mauler is a better poker than the KDK3? It's mostly st instead of the KDKs CT (most of that it shows wheen hill humping is what little ST it has. Still not sure if those shoulders are ST or arm) which is in theory good but I wouldn't say the Mauler is a poke and twist mech by any stretch. Too slow.

Because ability to poke is what's being debated and getting a Mauler into position is like docking a yacht.

Are you saying in a 1 v 1 you could beat someone of your skill level Mauler vs KDK3?

Gyrok, on 27 May 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

At 600m, the KDK3 loses to the MX90.



That is why Ultimax, Gas Guzzler, and Quicksilver Kalasa are all here telling you NOPE!

Boy, I was confused for a bit there...



If it is equally good, it will not win over 50% of engagements, especially outside preferred engagement range. Which is it?



Are we poking or hill peeking at 450-500m? Then BNC-3M will win more trades...so, yes.

If we are talking about some open ground scenario at 400m, then possibly not...that comes down to who sees who first, and if the Banshee is at heat cap, or, basically, if the Banshee can alpha twice to drop the Dakka bear.

So has Quicksilver completely reversed position on removing quirks from the KDK3?

If I make a list of comp players here and reddit who've said pull it's quirks and it's more than 2 people, do I win?

Also the KDk3 beats the MX90 at any range, because it can close. Unless you're saying the duel is the lake on frozen starting at 1km the KDK3 will beat the MX90 a lot more than 50/50. It's an absurd argument on its face.

Same with the Wubshee. The Wubshee might be a bit closer but the KDK3 is going to win the majority of those those matches on about any map.

Edited by MischiefSC, 27 May 2016 - 06:01 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Afuldan McKronik, on 23 May 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Eh.. with the amount of hurt from players, the KDK-3 will get uac jame chance increased, the SB will get increased missile heat gen and the others will get Laser heat gen increased. Plus the hitboxes will get worse. /sarcasm off.
-snip-

This is actually a great idea ignoring the sarcasm- considering the Kodiak 3 is meant to be an Anti-aircraft platform and was meant to use the LBX 20's, not UAC 10's.
I can easily see quirks to increase say LBX (20?) velocity and range, and reduce the spread of it and heat. As well sa removing the agility quirks and making it able to torso turn up more (as an anti aircraft mech is slightly important to able to aim at flying things).

I mean it's mostly the "UAC" builds that are the 'OP' ones on the Kodiak 3. No one is crying the 4 LBX 10 or 2 lBX 20 or what ever builds are that strong, most turn their eyes to the 2 UAC 5 2 UAC 10 or the 4 UAC 10 builds.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

I meant the big shoulders being exposed are not an issue as the arms are just there to shield. Probably had armor stripped anyway for ammo.

Are you saying the Mauler is a better poker than the KDK3? It's mostly st instead of the KDKs CT (most of that it shows wheen hill humping is what little ST it has. Still not sure if those shoulders are ST or arm) which is in theory good but I wouldn't say the Mauler is a poke and twist mech by any stretch. Too slow.

Because ability to poke is what's being debated and getting a Mauler into position is like docking a yacht.

Are you saying in a 1 v 1 you could beat someone of your skill level Mauler vs KDK3?



So has Quicksilver completely reversed position on removing quirks from the KDK3?

If I make a list of comp players here and reddit who've said pull it's quirks and it's more than 2 people, do I win?

You might note I didn't bother highlighting the arms, because they are largely irrelevant on both mechs, in your dread scenario, being both dps machines.

But when you're not moving goalposts, the exposure level is essentially the same, durability similar, except the MAL catches less CT fire, whereas the KDK catches pure CT dmg. The KDK has better speed to reposition, but once the shooting actually starts, that largely moot. While the superior range and dps of the MAL are not.

Nightshade24, on 27 May 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

This is actually a great idea ignoring the sarcasm- considering the Kodiak 3 is meant to be an Anti-aircraft platform and was meant to use the LBX 20's, not UAC 10's.
I can easily see quirks to increase say LBX (20?) velocity and range, and reduce the spread of it and heat. As well sa removing the agility quirks and making it able to torso turn up more (as an anti aircraft mech is slightly important to able to aim at flying things).

I mean it's mostly the "UAC" builds that are the 'OP' ones on the Kodiak 3. No one is crying the 4 LBX 10 or 2 lBX 20 or what ever builds are that strong, most turn their eyes to the 2 UAC 5 2 UAC 10 or the 4 UAC 10 builds.

Well my video showed that even with four lb10X, they are pretty useless.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 May 2016 - 12:34 PM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

I meant the big shoulders being exposed are not an issue as the arms are just there to shield. Probably had armor stripped anyway for ammo.

Are you saying the Mauler is a better poker than the KDK3? It's mostly st instead of the KDKs CT (most of that it shows wheen hill humping is what little ST it has. Still not sure if those shoulders are ST or arm) which is in theory good but I wouldn't say the Mauler is a poke and twist mech by any stretch. Too slow.

Because ability to poke is what's being debated and getting a Mauler into position is like docking a yacht.

Are you saying in a 1 v 1 you could beat someone of your skill level Mauler vs KDK3?



So has Quicksilver completely reversed position on removing quirks from the KDK3?

If I make a list of comp players here and reddit who've said pull it's quirks and it's more than 2 people, do I win?

Also the KDk3 beats the MX90 at any range, because it can close. Unless you're saying the duel is the lake on frozen starting at 1km the KDK3 will beat the MX90 a lot more than 50/50. It's an absurd argument on its face.

Same with the Wubshee. The Wubshee might be a bit closer but the KDK3 is going to win the majority of those those matches on about any map.

I think you underestimate the MX90 with 3 AC5s and 2 UAC5s. The KDK3 will overheat before it can down the MAL, where as the MX90 will just pound the KDK into submission.

Additionally...the BNC only needs 2-3 alphas to drop the KDK, at 500m it can use cover well enough the KDK is a non-issue for that mech.

Also, the KDK is not a trading mech, you can use cover, but you are wasting your time, you need to be applying pressure constantly. That is the point of dakka. Plus with projectile speed being what it is, you will lose trades to anything more than ~450m out, especially against IS LPLs, they peek too fast to get anything meaningful on target.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

As someone who doesn't own Kodiaks, but has a love-hate relationship with the DWF, does the DWF really spread damage better than the KDK as Bishop says??

I mean, staring in DWF gets your CT destroyed in half a second and "torso twisting" is done with twisting the mech instead of using the mouse, and this way, you can get your side torsos blown off in half a second.

[Belacose]

Seems IS has really been campaigning hard to maintain their domination over clan.

With the advent of the Kodiak 3 in its present state has the gap really been closed that much? Has the tide truly turned?

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

You might note I didn't bother highlighting the arts, because they are largely irrelevant on both mechs, in your dread scenario, being both dps machines.

But when you're not moving goalposts, the exposure level is essentially the same, durability similar, except the MAL catches less CT fire, whereas the KDK catches pure CT dmg. The KDK has better speed to reposition, but once the shooting actually starts, that largely moot. While the superior range and dps of the MAL are not.



Well my video showed that even with four lb10X, they are pretty useless.

You're the one trying to compare the MX90 with the KDK3 for peeking/poking.

I'm all for the KDK3 getting hitboxes fixed. Always, any mech with **** hitboxes. Hitboxes shouldn't be an intentional balancing negative. While there are situations where no matter what they're bad and as such it needs quirks it should always have the best hitboxes you can reasonably set up.

However pretending it's comparable to The Mauler? No. The Mauler is a feast/famine beast in QP and has a solid role in FW and comp play for long range dakka.

Speed and maneuverability is king, couple that with an 80pt burst damage and it's not needing quirks.

I'm willing to consider the issue being 4xuac10s but I really dislike overall weapon changes based on 1 chassis.

I almost got into a balance about a Clan mech with Gyrok. Silly me.

Edited to add -

LBX are still crap. Because reasons. That needs fixed too.

Edited by MischiefSC, 27 May 2016 - 06:26 PM.

[Gyrok]

Keshav Murali, on 27 May 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

As someone who doesn't own Kodiaks, but has a love-hate relationship with the DWF, does the DWF really spread damage better than the KDK as Bishop says??

I mean, staring in DWF gets your CT destroyed in half a second and "torso twisting" is done with twisting the mech instead of using the mouse, and this way, you can get your side torsos blown off in half a second.

At the moment, yes. If the DW had similar torso twist to the KDK, it would be a superior mech for spreading damage outright. As it sits, because you have to turn your legs to shield your CT, it is arguably about the same. The big thing with the KDK (that may be addressed) is the enormous CT, it is basically easily struck, even from 100 degree position to either side of CT. Also, the ST hit boxes are egregiously large as well, but that is another matter, as the DW is equally as guilt of that sin, if not perhaps more so...

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

I almost got into a balance about a Clan mech with Gyrok. Silly me.

UAC10s have had ghost heat adjusted once already because of the DW. In all reality, the KDK is a PUG stomping mech. In comp it will see some use in my mind as a mech for mid-range engagements, or along side a brawling assault to push as a brawl enforcer. It is not a "lead the charge" assault though, even in SB form, and it puts out enough punishment to justify being a squishy 100 tonner.

Honestly, the DW and KGC probably need a lot more attention than the KDK3, especially considering their poor state as of this time frame with the Atlas and KDK being viable in their respective engagement ranges.

[Chados]

Other than the KDK-3 I find the Kodiak in general equivalent to a Mauler in fear factor but with much better mobility. The KDK-3...yeah, it's poorly balanced. It can instacore any IS mech through 80 tons in a split-second, especially when one of them is covered by ECM when you can't see it. A Kodiak-3 will core you in a one-shot peeking around a corner. And they're faster than every IS heavy other than an XL-equipped Dragon if the IS mech has reasonable armor and weapons loadout, so you can't run from an ambush either.

That said, the Kodiaks aren't invincible, even the KDK-3. I've taken a few of them down in solo queue, because they will lose CT if you're disciplined and can ignore the ballistic impacts blinding you. But you end up so critically damaged you're easy meat for anything else that wanders up. Best to prioritize them above all other nearby threats and mass-focus them whenever they appear.

According to Sarna, the Kodiak isn't supposed to be a world-beater. It's supposed to be a supporter for the Gladiator. And I don't fear Gladiators-they can be dealt with. The Kodiak, however...in my world it's right up there with a Timberwolf as a priority target. In fact, I'll disregard everything else when I see a Kodiak.

Edited by Chados, 27 May 2016 - 06:45 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Belacose, on 27 May 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Seems IS has really been campaigning hard to maintain their domination over clan.

With the advent of the Kodiak 3 in its present state has the gap really been closed that much? Has the tide truly turned?

Neither are"elite" twisters. But it take very little effort to spread dmg along all 3 torso on the DWF, overall. Face the music and wiggle more than actually twist....while melting what's In front of you

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

You're the one trying to compare the MX90 with the KDK3 for peeking/poking.

I'm all for the KDK3 getting hitboxes fixed. Always, any mech with **** hitboxes. Hitboxes shouldn't be an intentional balancing negative. While there are situations where no matter what they're bad and as such it needs quirks it should always have the best hitboxes you can reasonably set up.

However pretending it's comparable to The Mauler? No. The Mauler is a feast/famine beast in QP and has a solid role in FW and comp play for long range dakka.

Speed and maneuverability is king, couple that with an 80pt burst damage and it's not needing quirks.

I'm willing to consider the issue being 4xuac10s but I really dislike overall weapon changes based on 1 chassis.

I almost got into a balance about a Clan mech with Gyrok. Silly me.

Edited to add -

LBX are still crap. Because reasons. That needs fixed too.

How many drops do you have in them?

[MischiefSC]

Mauler? Some hundreds. KDK3? About 40.

What difference does that make?

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

Mauler? Some hundreds. KDK3? About 40.

What difference does that make?

40? So I'm assuming you have some impressive god mode stats to share?

[Nightshade24]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Well my video showed that even with four lb10X, they are pretty useless.

I like the dual LBX 20. -sips tea-
Doing quite well with them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nightshade24, on 27 May 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

I like the dual LBX 20. -sips tea-
Doing quite well with them.

yes, because I'm sure that's all you are carrying and the REST of your armament has NOTHING to do with it.

*drinks coffee, like a man*

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2016 - 08:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

40? So I'm assuming you have some impressive god mode stats to share?

No, I'm terrible in the KDK3 but still inexplicably say that it's OP, along with a swath of other people.

Was waiting for this to come up. I'm absolutely not going to get into anyones individual stats - that's anecdotal and my stats are no more individually reliable an indicator than yours or any other single persons.

The point is that based on the mechanics of it and the cumulative results of the most skill-consistent players (generally your top performers) it shows as needing the quirks removed. That in the group of Atlas, Banshee, Mauler, KDK the KDK3 is significantly superior than the best designs of the others, in the same way the TBR was OP compared to all other heavies for a long time and the BLK was OP for a bit before quirks were dialed back and the ACH was broken with its original quirks, etc. etc. etc.

This isn't a new topic or debate. Happens a lot. Balance is a moving target. It's not about Clan, IS or any other factor other than having a balanced game environment.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 27 May 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

No, I'm terrible in the KDK3 but still inexplicably say that it's OP, along with a swath of other people.

Was waiting for this to come up. I'm absolutely not going to get into anyones individual stats - that's anecdotal and my stats are no more individually reliable an indicator than yours or any other single persons.

The point is that based on the mechanics of it and the cumulative results of the most skill-consistent players (generally your top performers) it shows as needing the quirks removed. That in the group of Atlas, Banshee, Mauler, KDK the KDK3 is significantly superior than the best designs of the others, in the same way the TBR was OP compared to all other heavies for a long time and the BLK was OP for a bit before quirks were dialed back and the ACH was broken with its original quirks, etc. etc. etc.

This isn't a new topic or debate. Happens a lot. Balance is a moving target. It's not about Clan, IS or any other factor other than having a balanced game environment.

OK. So it's just blah blah blah. Gotcha.

You see, if it was so super OP, you'd be parading your stats to bolster your claim.

Good to know. You used to be better than this, and actually would try to frame your arguments with facts, proof, etc. A shame. All I can assume is that it's just another extension of your anger at PGI, looking for anything to rip into them about.

I'd actually be delighted if you proved me wrong. I used to enjoy dropping with you, and respect your input. The last several months though? It's been like reading a Reddit thread. Pretty much everything you've thrown up has been refuted by sources a hell of a lot more reputable than me.

Nothing to see here, moving on.

Pity.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2016 - 10:39 PM.