1017 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Roadkill, on 28 May 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Wrong.

Individually our stats are anecdotal. But in aggregate, they're very relevant. And except for a handful of truly elite players, everyone's stats are showing that the KDK-3 isn't OP.

Theorycrafting is fun, but reality rules. On paper, it does indeed look like the KDK-3 is OP. In practice it clearly is not, except in the hands of a very few, very elite pilots who built up those stats in an ideal PUG-farming environment.

Why are you afraid to wait a few weeks? Worried that a non-ideal environment for the KDK-3 will show that it isn't OP?

I don't expect changes to happen in a month of release. Waiting a couple of weeks doesn't matter
However we've already got good statistical data and a good consensus along the comp tier players. Their metrics are relevant because they're more consistent. It's a byproduct of being closer to the end of the curve.

When the Clans first came tons of people said they were balanced because their stats were not great. That was an I dictation of how mediocre performance in a skill works, not caliber of the tool used. Reality was Clans were OP as ****. Just most people are bad at the game.

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v 1 KDK3 vs Mauler, Banshee or Atlas, you think the KDK3 will win at most 50% of the time?

[Templar Dane]

Keshav Murali, on 28 May 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

Yeah, well, I love Tourmaline too.

Best map. Perfect the way it's laid out. Only problems with it is the hitboxes on some terrain features are ******. Invisible bits that block fire.

You can SEE. Lots of visibility. No need to go to thermal vision like forest colony or dagobah. Plenty of interesting cover, choke points, back doors for flanking. It has plentiful LRM cover unlike a lot of maps, but not a map composed entirely of absolute LRM cover like some other maps. It's big, but not too big. Jumpjets are useful but not a game changer.

Not only is it a great map for sniping spots, it's got channels and cover to so you can brawl. You can side peek, you can hill hump.

It's also hot, which punishes meta builds. A good pick for hipster mech pilots just because of that. Heck, the only reason someone wouldn't like the map is because it's hot and it hinders their laser vomit meta build.

Now that I think about it, the E4/F4 area could use some love. The lips of the pits could stand to be a bit higher and perhaps some more terrain features there would be in order. It's pretty exposed to both LRMs and direct fire, and only light mechs dare to go through there and never for very long. OH and a night-time version would be great.

But overall it's a superb map. My favorite, followed by HPG. I vote for both of those every time they are a choice, cold maps be damned.

[Templar Dane]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v 1 KDK3 vs Mauler, Banshee or Atlas, you think the KDK3 will win at most 50% of the time?

Ahem.

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v1 Atlas vs Warhawk, Executioner, Gargoyle, HIghlander IIC or Dire Whale, you think the atlas will win 50% of the time?

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v 1 KDK3 vs Mauler, Banshee or Atlas, you think the KDK3 will win at most 50% of the time?

Under 300m against an Atlas? They lose 9/10, maybe 10/10 in the KDK3.

At 450-500m with a banshee peeking a ridge line? They lose 9/10, maybe 10/10 in the KDK3.

At 600m+ against the MAL? They lose 7/10-8/10 in KDK3.

Over 400m against an Atlas? KDK3 wins 9/10, maybe 10/10.

At 450m against the MAL? KDK3 wins 6/10-7/10.

Honestly, the only time I see the banshee losing is in a scenario where the banshee is already riding the redline. Otherwise, I think any range the Banshee can engage at effectively, with cover, the banshee wins basically every engagement...honestly.

Edited by Gyrok, 28 May 2016 - 02:47 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Templar Dane, on 28 May 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Ahem.

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v1 Atlas vs Warhawk, Executioner, Gargoyle, HIghlander IIC or Dire Whale, you think the atlas will win 50% of the time?

Nice strawman.

However I'd be dubious about the Atlas in 1 v 1 vs most because mobility gives you a lot of control in a duel. The Dire is okay vs an Atlas 1 v 1 but would get crushed by the Banshee. I would say the Atlas is better than any of those and any but the Warhawk needs a lot of love. The Warhawks needs a rescale.

All of which is utterly irrelevant to the KDK3 being unbalanced as it would stomp any of those more consistently than the Atlas would.

Nice sidestep though. If the KDK3 is balanced vs the top tier overall assaults then they should win 50/50, right? The argument used was that of the KDK3 is op those mechs, Atlas, Banshee, Mauler needed nerfed too. Bishop even posted some pics about the Maulers merits as a hill humper.

So it's either better than those mechs or it isn't. If it isn't then they should run about 50/50. Now you're saying it is better but that's okay because the Atlas is marginally better than the worst Assaults?

So it is OP but that's okay because some Assaults are bad?

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Under 300m against an Atlas? They lose 9/10, maybe 10/10 in the KDK3.

At 450-500m with a banshee peeking a ridge line? They lose 9/10, maybe 10/10 in the KDK3.

At 600m+ against the MAL? They lose 7/10-8/10 in KDK3.

Over 400m against an Atlas? KDK3 wins 9/10, maybe 10/10.

At 450m against the MAL? KDK3 wins 6/10-7/10.

Honestly, the only time I see the banshee losing is in a scenario where the banshee is already riding the redline. Otherwise, I think any range the Banshee can engage at effectively, with cover, the banshee wins basically every engagement...honestly.

Really simple. You pick a Banshee, Atlas or Mauler. I pick a KDK3. We drop on a random map. One of us wins.

You keep trying to create cherry picked scenarios. If the KDK3 wins most the time unless the Mauler catches him on a eine open plain with no cover and 800m between them the KDK3 is still better because without a contrived situation it's going to win most the time.

How about we play a match where you're in a Mauler and I'm in a commando and we start at 15m. Clearly they are balanced because at 15m the Mauler can't deflect enough to shoot the Mando at ankle biting range.

So if you can contrive a situation where something else will win it's balanced?

The Atlas doesn't win at 300m. It just has *a chance to win*, if the KDK doesn't use cover, hit and move or exploit its better mobility and higher points. Mauler doesn't win at range unless there is simply no way for the faster, more maneuverable KDK to close. Wubshee only wins if the KDK can't use its better maneuverability to get the facetime it needs to ST the Wubshee out before the Wubshee can CT core. In this exchange the Wubshee, with worse heat and lower burst damage and worse DPS, has to do more precision damage to the KDK3 than the KDK doesn't to it.

I'd say of the three the Wubshee has the best odds and it's not 50/50.

So, again. Comp players, comparable skill, one KDK3 on in Atlas/Banshee/Mauler. Random map. 1 v 1. Who wins over 50%?

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

If you get top tier comp players playing 1v1 and the KDK3 only goes 50/50 vs a Mauler, Wubshee and Atlas, great. Show me videos. Show me the aggregate data of as statistically comparable players as possible reflecting comparable performance in the mech.

Which won't happen as all the data to that regard shows the opposite and pretty much every comp player has said the KDK3 needs the quirks dialed back.

This isn't about my stats or yours in QP but mech balance. You should know better.

[opinion]
In my experience, 1v1s are a piss-poor way of judging a mech's capacity in a game. The game is 12v12 and is very complex, but cut it down to 1v1, and the mech that's tankier and better at CQ will win. It is only a reliable measure of a pilot's CQ proficiency (Torso twisting) with mechs of similar tonnage.

The KDK-3 will wreck both the MX90 and the BNC-3M at the hands of a good pilot in 1v1 because....unsurprisingly, it has more DPS at close quarters.

Another example:

Let's bring back the old Wubverine (with the crazy LPL quirks), and make it duel a Kintaro. You know what? If the 55-ton Kintaro is jampacked with SRMs (like it should be), it will win the duel every single, freaking time. The wubverine was "OP" -- because it had low duration, low heat LPLs reaching out to 550 m. Cut the battle down to 1v1 against an SRM brawler, and it only takes 2 hits to blow off the arm OR a side torso.

In duels, if you're fast, you can keep yourself under cover and away from enemy fire till they/you close in. The mode just favours close range mechs. (if you're not on Alpine/Polar/Grim, that is)

I think, making the same pilot play all three mechs, and aggregating the stats in ONE game mode (let's say group queue), will be a much more reliable indicator that you can use to judge performance.
[/opinion]

[MischiefSC]

Keshav Murali, on 28 May 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

[opinion]
In my experience, 1v1s are a piss-poor way of judging a mech's capacity in a game. The game is 12v12 and is very complex, but cut it down to 1v1, and the mech that's tankier and better at CQ will win. It is only a reliable measure of a pilot's CQ proficiency (Torso twisting) with mechs of similar tonnage.

The KDK-3 will wreck both the MX90 and the BNC-3M at the hands of a good pilot in 1v1 because....unsurprisingly, it has more DPS at close quarters.

Another example:

Let's bring back the old Wubverine (with the crazy LPL quirks), and make it duel a Kintaro. You know what? If the 55-ton Kintaro is jampacked with SRMs (like it should be), it will win the duel every single, freaking time. The wubverine was "OP" -- because it had low duration, low heat LPLs reaching out to 550 m. Cut the battle down to 1v1 against an SRM brawler, and it only takes 2 hits to blow off the arm OR a side torso.

In duels, if you're fast, you can keep yourself under cover and away from enemy fire till they/you close in. The mode just favours close range mechs. (if you're not on Alpine/Polar/Grim, that is)

I think, making the same pilot play all three mechs, and aggregating the stats in ONE game mode (let's say group queue), will be a much more reliable indicator that you can use to judge performance.
[/opinion]

A very reasonable observation. However in the context of assaults 1v1 isn't a bad method of gauging value. However how about this - 8 v 8 with 2/2/2/2, no tonnage limit. One side can use Kodiaks and the other can't. The side that can't is going to need to build their decks around playing against the KDK3s to try and offset the overall advantage they have.

To put it another way, if you have two teams and one has KDK3s and the other doesn't the team that doesn't has to try and mitigate the disadvantage that gives them, because it's significantly superior to any other assault overall.

Incredible burst damage, incredible DPS, great range, mediocre survivability, best in class mobility by a big margin. Among assaults it's significantly better overall.

Hence needs quirks removed, hitboxes fixes.

[Cabusha]

Not really seeing the issue with the KDK-3 since I was already rocking the dakka builds on the Dire. Typical hype overreacting.

[Mystere]

FLINTCOIN, on 28 May 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

The uac10 build has a slightly subpar alpha (eww only 80 pts loooool) but with the ability to spam that alpha extremely fast until whatever poor mech in front of it is dead.

I will ask you the same question I asked before. Do you even know what "alpha strike" means?

Edited by Mystere, 28 May 2016 - 06:20 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Cabusha, on 28 May 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Not really seeing the issue with the KDK-3 since I was already rocking the dakka builds on the Dire. Typical hype overreacting.

So if you could give the Dire mobility comparable to the fast heavies and over the shoulder hadpoints, it wouldn't be better? Same loadout - just faster, way better mobility and hardpoints.

That would still be exactly the same?

This is the core issue with this argument. The KDK3 is significantly superior to the same loadout on the Dire which is already considered an absolute face-melter. It was considered legit on the Dire because the Dire is the least mobile mech in the game. Exact same loadout on hands down the most mobile assault plus over the shoulder mounts?

This is not magic. It's been tested at a comp level by people with the most consistent performance. Same way we identified first how op Clans were at release and the ACH being OP with original quirks.

There is no surprise here save people pretending a KDK3 with 4xuac10s isn't really better than the Dire with the same build.
Lol okay.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

I don't expect changes to happen in a month of release. Waiting a couple of weeks doesn't matter
However we've already got good statistical data and a good consensus along the comp tier players. Their metrics are relevant because they're more consistent. It's a byproduct of being closer to the end of the curve.

When the Clans first came tons of people said they were balanced because their stats were not great. That was an I dictation of how mediocre performance in a skill works, not caliber of the tool used. Reality was Clans were OP as ****. Just most people are bad at the game.

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v 1 KDK3 vs Mauler, Banshee or Atlas, you think the KDK3 will win at most 50% of the time?

Twinky, who broke the record during last week's challenge, has called it specifically "OP in the public queue".

It hasn't been used in any competitive matches yet, so it remains to be seen how well it fares against a long ranged Mauler in value (I think they will both have their place depending on strat).


His suggestion was the removal of the quirks, and hasn't really said much else.

I think the removal of quirks would be fine, it has a lot of firepower, but with the caveat that the hitboxes are adjusted - because I can tell you the KDK-1 is at best middle of the road and I would not choose it over my best IS assaults, the hitboxes are not very good for builds that end up with a lot of face time (every clan laser build, every clan dakka build).

I don't think MORE nerfs beyond the removal of its current quirks is warranted, Clans literally have nothing but mediocre to outright bad assaults outside of the Kodiak family, where as the IS has a plethora of really strong, valuable top tier assault mechs that cover every range bracket (long, mid, short) and playstyle (ER LLAS, Mid/Long Range Dakka/Gauss/Pulse Vomit, Brawl).

Edited by Ultimax, 28 May 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

Twinky, who broke the record during last week's challenge, has called it specifically "OP in the public queue".

It hasn't been used in any competitive matches yet, so it remains to be seen how well it fares against a long ranged Mauler in value (I think they will both have their place depending on strat).


His suggestion was the removal of the quirks, and hasn't really said much else.

I think the removal of quirks would be fine, it has a lot of firepower, but with the caveat that the hitboxes are adjusted - because I can tell you the KDK-1 is at best middle of the road and I would not choose it over my best IS assaults, the hitboxes are not very good for builds that end up with a lot of face time (every clan laser build, every clan dakka build).

I don't think MORE nerfs beyond the removal of its current quirks is warranted, Clans literally have nothing but mediocre to outright bad assaults outside of the Kodiak family, where as the IS has a plethora of really strong, valuable top tier assault mechs that cover every range bracket (long, mid, short) and playstyle (ER LLAS, Mid/Long Range Dakka/Gauss/Pulse Vomit, Brawl).

I agree with the solution completely.

I'm torn on ghost heat changes to uac10s. I'd rather try and divorce that from the KDK3 all together. The Boom jag drove numerous ballistic nerfs and ghost heat drama that has ****** countless other builds and that was stupid enough.

That needs a lot more time and reasonably so. The quirks on the KDK3 are not tough to identify as needing removed. As to how it compares to other assaults....

unless it's a hot, long range map and you're playing a strat around long range dakka can you really say you wouldn't take the KDK3 as it is right now with quirks over the Mauler? Mauler is always vulnerable and needs effort tied to protecting it and will always have positioning issues. KDK3 has pretty much none of those.

It's <3 seconds for the KDK to cross the gap from 800m to 450m, assuming a moving start. Not to mention synergy with almost any good heavy and many mediums for positioning. Struggling to find, at least on paper, where that wouldn't play out better.

Also I dislike saying the KDK needs to be over-stronk because all other clan assaults are ****. Clan assaults need rescale and then quirked like any IS mech because they suck on ice, KDK3 or not.

[1453 R]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

I don't think MORE nerfs beyond the removal of its current quirks is warranted, Clans literally have nothing but mediocre to outright bad assaults outside of the Kodiak family, where as the IS has a plethora of really strong, valuable top tier assault mechs that cover every range bracket (long, mid, short) and playstyle (ER LLAS, Mid/Long Range Dakka/Gauss/Pulse Vomit, Brawl).

Unfortunately, you're probably about the only one in this thread on the "KILL IT WITH FIRE" side who doesn't want the thing just utterly ruined. Clan assault 'Mech selection is weak and limited and basically always has been, mostly because every time a Clan fatbro comes out that is even the slightest bit worrisome, the forum explodes into apocalyptic world-destroying geysers of incandescent nerdrage demanding that the machine be 'slightly balanced' or 'dialed back' or 'retweaked a bit' until such time as it's VTR Giganerf-level dead.

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Also I dislike saying the KDK needs to be over-stronk because all other clan assaults are ****. Clan assaults need rescale and then quirked like any IS mech because they suck on ice, KDK3 or not.

So...it'd be okay for the Warhawk's current model to be cleansed with fire and replaced with something that is not "Dire Whale with a different nose"? Or for the Executioner and Gladiator to end up with a set of quirks reflecting that most configurations of either 'Mech are often somewhat hard-pressed to match the firepower of a medium 'Mech? Or for Piranha to acknowledge that the Highlander IIC, like the regular Highlander, has awkward hardpoints spread across weird locations in insufficient quantities to do anything useful while also being not much more mobile than a Dire Whale in exchange for half the durability and less firepower?

Because you and I both know, Mischief, exactly the sort of reaction this seething cesspit would have if any of the fixes required to make most Clan assaults feel like proper assaults went through. And yet...so many people are screaming their livers out to try and get the Kodiak chassis savaged until it's just as mediocre as everything else 80 tons or up on the Clan side. Because Timber Wolves gave them bad dreams once upon a time, back before every Sphere 'Mech in the game had five to thirty tons of free stuff.

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 28 May 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Unfortunately, you're probably about the only one in this thread on the "KILL IT WITH FIRE" side who doesn't want the thing just utterly ruined.

Again, not many are doing that.

Most are suggesting quirk removal



You're just fearmongering at this point. It's painful to watch

[STEF_]

Is not just funny that the HGN-2C is still without quirks despite it come out 6 months ago and still is a 90 tons of trash....(meanwhile the BigBear with a lot of hardpoints and good hardpoint location..... came out with quirks)?

("Pgi. We know what we are doing" meme)

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 28 May 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Unfortunately, you're probably about the only one in this thread on the "KILL IT WITH FIRE" side who doesn't want the thing just utterly ruined. Clan assault 'Mech selection is weak and limited and basically always has been, mostly because every time a Clan fatbro comes out that is even the slightest bit worrisome, the forum explodes into apocalyptic world-destroying geysers of incandescent nerdrage demanding that the machine be 'slightly balanced' or 'dialed back' or 'retweaked a bit' until such time as it's VTR Giganerf-level dead.



So...it'd be okay for the Warhawk's current model to be cleansed with fire and replaced with something that is not "Dire Whale with a different nose"? Or for the Executioner and Gladiator to end up with a set of quirks reflecting that most configurations of either 'Mech are often somewhat hard-pressed to match the firepower of a medium 'Mech? Or for Piranha to acknowledge that the Highlander IIC, like the regular Highlander, has awkward hardpoints spread across weird locations in insufficient quantities to do anything useful while also being not much more mobile than a Dire Whale in exchange for half the durability and less firepower?

Because you and I both know, Mischief, exactly the sort of reaction this seething cesspit would have if any of the fixes required to make most Clan assaults feel like proper assaults went through. And yet...so many people are screaming their livers out to try and get the Kodiak chassis savaged until it's just as mediocre as everything else 80 tons or up on the Clan side. Because Timber Wolves gave them bad dreams once upon a time, back before every Sphere 'Mech in the game had five to thirty tons of free stuff.

No, pretty much everyone in this thread is just saying pull the quirks on the KDK3 and fix the KDK hitboxes overall. If the 4xUAC10 build is still an issue then maybe, *maybe*, a change to UAC10 ghost heat is the solution. No quirks, that's it.

I'd love the Warhawk to just get a whole remodel. Same with the Dire. Even the animations are bad.

Nobody ever called for nerfs to the other Clan assaults I can remember save justifications for the Dire Wolf having such terrible mobility - which, by the way, was the result of just how incredibly effective the 6xUAC5 and 4xUAC10 builds were. Oh, and the DireStar that resulted in changes to Gauss game wide (IS and Clan).

You're decrying issues that don't exist here. We're all good with the rest of the Clan assaults needing a lot of love in a lot of ways. Nobody is saying negaquirk the KDK3 and KDKs in general - just removing the quirks from the KDK3 and fix all the KDKs hitboxes. On account of it being pretty much the best build the Dire Wolf can carry but in over the shoulder mounts on the most maneuverable assault in the game, by a significant margin. Of course that isn't balanced. Other Clan mechs being bad is no more justification for the KDK3 being left OP than the myriad of terribad IS mechs being a justification for an OP IS mech.

I support reducing Oxide quirks too. I supported a reasonable reduction on the BLK quirks, I also am in favor of increasing IS LPL burn time. This isn't about IS vs Clan. It's about wanting a balanced game.

[Templar Dane]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Nice strawman.

However I'd be dubious about the Atlas in 1 v 1 vs most because mobility gives you a lot of control in a duel. The Dire is okay vs an Atlas 1 v 1 but would get crushed by the Banshee. I would say the Atlas is better than any of those and any but the Warhawk needs a lot of love. The Warhawks needs a rescale.

All of which is utterly irrelevant to the KDK3 being unbalanced as it would stomp any of those more consistently than the Atlas would.

Nice sidestep though. If the KDK3 is balanced vs the top tier overall assaults then they should win 50/50, right? The argument used was that of the KDK3 is op those mechs, Atlas, Banshee, Mauler needed nerfed too. Bishop even posted some pics about the Maulers merits as a hill humper.

So it's either better than those mechs or it isn't. If it isn't then they should run about 50/50. Now you're saying it is better but that's okay because the Atlas is marginally better than the worst Assaults?

So it is OP but that's okay because some Assaults are bad?

The 'some assaults' that I named are every single clan assault that is not a kodiak. Since you're on board with the clan assaults being the worst....

Both sides have their stinkers. A problem, for a long time now, has been that all the clan assaults were rubbish. The whale being the best of the lot. Suddenly kodiak drops, and the whines about KDK-3 start. A competitive clan assault and people start whining.

Others have pointed out that an atlas will stomp a KDK3 at close range. That's mostly due to damage spread versus alpha, the atlas's better hitboxes and extra durability. I find that perfectly acceptable since the atlas is pretty useless at range.

At range though, most of our bets would be on the kodiak for obvious reasons. I don't have a problem with this. You apparently, do.

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v 1 KDK3 vs Mauler, Banshee or Atlas, you think the KDK3 will win at most 50% of the time?

Lets take another look at this, since you called me out on a 'strawman'.

KDK3 versus mostly sub-100 ton mechs. That already isn't very fair, partly because of the tonnage difference. Complaining that a 90 tonner doesn't have a 50% W/L ratio in a 1v1 against a 100 tonner is a bit silly.

The KDK-3 boys. An invincible engine of destruction. It never jams. It doesn't have a massive CT and is immune to LRMs. It's ideal for hitting ankle-biting lights and shooting up/down inclines. It's weapons are instant damage and great for hitting fast moving targets right where you need the shells to land. Always wins against atlases and laser vomit. Definitely no downsides to this mech. Clan ballistics are the meta.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

Really simple. You pick a Banshee, Atlas or Mauler. I pick a KDK3. We drop on a random map. One of us wins.

You keep trying to create cherry picked scenarios. If the KDK3 wins most the time unless the Mauler catches him on a eine open plain with no cover and 800m between them the KDK3 is still better because without a contrived situation it's going to win most the time.

How about we play a match where you're in a Mauler and I'm in a commando and we start at 15m. Clearly they are balanced because at 15m the Mauler can't deflect enough to shoot the Mando at ankle biting range.

So if you can contrive a situation where something else will win it's balanced?

The Atlas doesn't win at 300m. It just has *a chance to win*, if the KDK doesn't use cover, hit and move or exploit its better mobility and higher points. Mauler doesn't win at range unless there is simply no way for the faster, more maneuverable KDK to close. Wubshee only wins if the KDK can't use its better maneuverability to get the facetime it needs to ST the Wubshee out before the Wubshee can CT core. In this exchange the Wubshee, with worse heat and lower burst damage and worse DPS, has to do more precision damage to the KDK3 than the KDK doesn't to it.

I'd say of the three the Wubshee has the best odds and it's not 50/50.

So, again. Comp players, comparable skill, one KDK3 on in Atlas/Banshee/Mauler. Random map. 1 v 1. Who wins over 50%?

The Banshee is faster than the dakka bear, XL380 is 69 kph in banshee. That is part of the reason that I really do not see any way that a dakka bear could beat a banshee. The wubshee has the right mounts, 55 PP firepower, enough heat cap to alpha enough to win, and more mobility with better shield arms, and better hit boxes.

It is literally better at pretty much everything than the KDK3.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

A very reasonable observation. However in the context of assaults 1v1 isn't a bad method of gauging value. However how about this - 8 v 8 with 2/2/2/2, no tonnage limit. One side can use Kodiaks and the other can't. The side that can't is going to need to build their decks around playing against the KDK3s to try and offset the overall advantage they have.

To put it another way, if you have two teams and one has KDK3s and the other doesn't the team that doesn't has to try and mitigate the disadvantage that gives them, because it's significantly superior to any other assault overall.

Incredible burst damage, incredible DPS, great range, mediocre survivability, best in class mobility by a big margin. Among assaults it's significantly better overall.

Hence needs quirks removed, hitboxes fixes.

Not really...run banshees...dakka bear completely negated. Especially if you get 2 banshees...110 damage in 0.6 seconds? versus 80 over 1.2 seconds, or 160 over 2.4?

Before your first volley is completely away, you will have 1 KDK3 CT cored, and banshees have taken no damage.