1017 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

So if you could give the Dire mobility comparable to the fast heavies and over the shoulder hadpoints, it wouldn't be better? Same loadout - just faster, way better mobility and hardpoints.

You keep saying this hyperbole as if it will change anything...so, I will ask again...

Since when does a KDK3 move at 80-90 kph?

Can I please get a cXL500 that does not exist for my KDK also? That is not to mention that you cannot even run the max engine on the UAC10s dakka bear...it only travels at 65 kph.

[Exard3k]

just change ghost heat values for UAC10, no need to change the KDK-3. Although the Kodiaks don't really need their Quirks to be good.

Edited by Exard3k, 29 May 2016 - 06:50 AM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Struggling to find, at least on paper, where that wouldn't play out better.

Sometimes on paper, things look much better than they are...

Like the Dallas Cowboys football team, for example...on paper...they have super bowl talent. In real life, they lose at least 8 games a year typically, and usually miss the playoffs.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 29 May 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

No, pretty much everyone in this thread is just saying pull the quirks on the KDK3 and fix the KDK hitboxes overall. If the 4xUAC10 build is still an issue then maybe, *maybe*, a change to UAC10 ghost heat is the solution. No quirks, that's it.

This comes on the heels of a whopping 5 days-ish in game? Really? Is that like when the EBJ stance height of the mech needed to be balanced before it even came out into the game for people to see it?

My point is...we need more data. Personally, I do not care what is OP in the scrub queue...

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I'd love the Warhawk to just get a whole remodel. Same with the Dire. Even the animations are bad.

Nobody ever called for nerfs to the other Clan assaults I can remember save justifications for the Dire Wolf having such terrible mobility - which, by the way, was the result of just how incredibly effective the 6xUAC5 and 4xUAC10 builds were. Oh, and the DireStar that resulted in changes to Gauss game wide (IS and Clan).

There are people in multiple locations talking about wanting to move hard points to new locations, people wanting to reduce engine cap, people wanting ghost heat on UAC10s, people wanting negative quirks...maybe not so in this thread...but there are some really bad ideas...and PGI likes those kind the best.

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You're decrying issues that don't exist here. We're all good with the rest of the Clan assaults needing a lot of love in a lot of ways. Nobody is saying negaquirk the KDK3 and KDKs in general - just removing the quirks from the KDK3 and fix all the KDKs hitboxes. On account of it being pretty much the best build the Dire Wolf can carry but in over the shoulder mounts on the most maneuverable assault in the game, by a significant margin. Of course that isn't balanced. Other Clan mechs being bad is no more justification for the KDK3 being left OP than the myriad of terribad IS mechs being a justification for an OP IS mech.

You were not in favor of nerfing the MAL or the Atlas, or the Banshee...has your stance changed? The Banshee is outright superior with better mobility than the KDK3...is it OP?

Also, removing quirks is nerfing...just FYI

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I support reducing Oxide quirks too. I supported a reasonable reduction on the BLK quirks, I also am in favor of increasing IS LPL burn time. This isn't about IS vs Clan. It's about wanting a balanced game.

But you want to make balance decisions based on what information that says the KDK3 is OP?

Edited by Gyrok, 29 May 2016 - 07:10 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 29 May 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

This comes on the heels of a whopping 5 days-ish in game? Really? Is that like when the EBJ stance height of the mech needed to be balanced before it even came out into the game for people to see it?

My point is...we need more data. Personally, I do not care what is OP in the scrub queue...

I'd love the Warhawk to just get a whole remodel. Same with the Dire. Even the animations are bad.



There are people in multiple locations talking about wanting to move hard points to new locations, people wanting to reduce engine cap, people wanting ghost heat on UAC10s, people wanting negative quirks...maybe not so in this thread...but there are some really bad ideas...and PGI likes those kind the best.



You were not in favor of nerfing the MAL or the Atlas, or the Banshee...has your stance changed? The Banshee is outright superior with better mobility than the KDK3...is it OP?

Also, removing quirks is nerfing...just FYI



But you want to make balance decisions based on what information that says the KDK3 is OP?

Heck, he's one of those who's raged about the hardpoint location. That was there focal point of all his initial anti-KDK complaints.

And he's still trying to claim the KDK has some huge advantage from those hard points over the MAL.... Despite actual proof that the difference is all but non existent, that both mechs expose essentially the same amount of torso to clear their guns .

After which he's talked nonsense, ignored it and such. Because it didn't fit his little narrative.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Well, the kodiak is in the right position, still suffers from overall clan nerf, like the heat!

Still, it is a clan mech, and people will complain so much because of it! Have IS noobs realized how much better IS mechs really are?
My team did some trials Kodiak vs Atlas / King Crab / Dire Wolf. Results varied, still, the Atlas came on top.

If they want to nerf something, nerf the hell out of the oxide! That is so cheesy, op, p2w etc!!!

[Lunatic NEo]

Worst thing they could do is increasing Ghost Heat on UAC10, overall Clan Weapon nerf cause one mech is good at it?

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

I agree with the solution completely.

I'm torn on ghost heat changes to uac10s. I'd rather try and divorce that from the KDK3 all together. The Boom jag drove numerous ballistic nerfs and ghost heat drama that has ****** countless other builds and that was stupid enough.

I don't think more ghost heat on UAC 10s is a solution.

It's FOURTY TONS of ballistics before you even add ammo and heatsinks (and you do want some extra heatsinks) - so most loadouts cost approx 55 tons (10 tons ammo, 5 extra DHS as an approximate).

It does exactly what fourty tons of weapons + ammo is supposed to do.

People don't like that, and frankly I don't care.

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

unless it's a hot, long range map and you're playing a strat around long range dakka...

It doesn't need to be a "long range dakka" stategy for the Mauler to fit in.

The +range and +velocity means that an AC 5 Mauler can play next to LLAS/ERLLAS mechs, and unlike many Gauss builds you still can't just push into it and count on having higher DPS than it does.

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

can you really say you wouldn't take the KDK3 as it is right now with quirks over the Mauler? Mauler is always vulnerable and needs effort tied to protecting it and will always have positioning issues. KDK3 has pretty much none of those.

My team is still testing, but "needing protecting" is basically all assaults in a 2/2/2/2 situation, Kodiak included - especially on Canyon Network where the regionals will be played.

Organized matches aren't the pug queue, yes I like the Kodiak better for the pug queue because of it's speed.

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Also I dislike saying the KDK needs to be over-stronk because all other clan assaults are ****. Clan assaults need rescale and then quirked like any IS mech because they suck on ice, KDK3 or not.

I didn't say it needs to be over strong, I just said IS has top tier Assault options in every category right now and the Kodiak-3 and maybe the SB are the only clan top tier options.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Remmember the Dire Wolf with 4 UAC10? Nothing special about it... its fun, but not OP whatsoever!

So why all this whining about the Kodiak with 4 UAC10?

The mech is new, give it some time and people will start using another mech and build

[Hit the Deck]

Spadejack, on 29 May 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

Remmember the Dire Wolf with 4 UAC10? Nothing special about it... its fun, but not OP whatsoever!

So why all this whining about the Kodiak with 4 UAC10?

The mech is new, give it some time and people will start using another mech and build

The thing that PGI gave it quirks even though people had known before release that it would be good just bugs me. Then it actually performed even better than expected in a little weekend tourney. This case is like Arctic Cheetah v.2. Please note that I'm not talking about "Clan vs IS balancing".

Hopefully they won't ship the Night Gyr with a list of positive quirks at release. This is coming from someone who bought the pack!

We need to assess how a particular chassis performs before it's quirked. Especially on something which is predicted to be good because we could use it as a base for balancing.

[Gyrok]

Hit the Deck, on 29 May 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

The thing that PGI gave it quirks even though people had known before release that it would be good just bugs me. Then it actually performed even better than expected in a little weekend tourney. This case is like Arctic Cheetah v.2. Please note that I'm not talking about "Clan vs IS balancing".

Hopefully they won't ship the Night Gyr with a list of positive quirks at release. This is coming from someone who bought the pack!

We need to assess how a particular chassis performs before it's quirked. Especially on something which is predicted to be good because we could use it as a base for balancing.

So, IS mechs can come pre-quirked, but not clan mechs, even though clans are indisputably at the poor end of the spectrum in terms of tech tree balance?

That sounds a bit...biased.

[Ultimax]

Hit the Deck, on 29 May 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

The thing that PGI gave it quirks even though people had known before release that it would be good just bugs me. Then it actually performed even better than expected in a little weekend tourney. This case is like Arctic Cheetah v.2. Please note that I'm not talking about "Clan vs IS balancing".

They're selling mechs dude, you think the Warhammer quirks are an accident?

Take a look at those mechs, then take a look at Cataphracts.


Then look at the quirk differences between them.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimax, on 29 May 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I don't think more ghost heat on UAC 10s is a solution.

It's FOURTY TONS of ballistics before you even add ammo and heatsinks (and you do want some extra heatsinks) - so most loadouts cost approx 55 tons (10 tons ammo, 5 extra DHS as an approximate).

It does exactly what fourty tons of weapons + ammo is supposed to do.

People don't like that, and frankly I don't care.





It doesn't need to be a "long range dakka" stategy for the Mauler to fit in.

The +range and +velocity means that an AC 5 Mauler can play next to LLAS/ERLLAS mechs, and unlike many Gauss builds you still can't just push into it and count on having higher DPS than it does.





My team is still testing, but "needing protecting" is basically all assaults in a 2/2/2/2 situation, Kodiak included - especially on Canyon Network where the regionals will be played.

Organized matches aren't the pug queue, yes I like the Kodiak better for the pug queue because of it's speed.




I didn't say it needs to be over strong, I just said IS has top tier Assault options in every category right now and the Kodiak-3 and maybe the SB are the only clan top tier options.

I don't disagree with any of that save possibly the reason for 4xuac10s being so strong - 40 tons of LRMs on a Stalker are garbage. Investment doesn't equal reward. It also creates a balance issue as all Clan weapons are significantly lighter - 40 tons of Clan ACs is a better deal than 40 tons of IS ACs *in general*, given that this will draw the inevitable strawman of "Clan LBX are bad so it's fair" and such that fills the last page of responses.

The difference is firepower plus mobility plus relative durability. The Mauler is functionally like a 50 pt alpha on most laser boats given that you'll generally have about 2 shots down range by the time most energy boats have finished their first burn. Pretty close to anyway. It does so for next to no heat, also awesome. I <3 the Mauler and on some maps in FW run 2 Maulers in my deck.

The KDK3s got the best loadout the Dire can carry in high mounts with bonus quirks. It can do either sustained DPS or an Atlas-caliber burst of damage for high heat. It's also significantly more maneuverable than the Mauler.

Pug queue the KDK3 is out of scope for other assaults. I am curious though to see where the Mauler or Banshee is going to do something the KDK3 can't replace while being faster and having more flexibility. It can replace the Mauler for cool running sustained DPS while being faster and more maneuverable and the Banshee for burst damage while matching its speed and exceeding is mobility.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 29 May 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

I don't disagree with any of that save possibly the reason for 4xuac10s being so strong - 40 tons of LRMs on a Stalker are garbage. Investment doesn't equal reward. It also creates a balance issue as all Clan weapons are significantly lighter - 40 tons of Clan ACs is a better deal than 40 tons of IS ACs *in general*, given that this will draw the inevitable strawman of "Clan LBX are bad so it's fair" and such that fills the last page of responses.

If you could mount 40 tons of ACs on the STK would it still be bad? Sure is not bad on a MAL...

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The difference is firepower plus mobility plus relative durability. The Mauler is functionally like a 50 pt alpha on most laser boats given that you'll generally have about 2 shots down range by the time most energy boats have finished their first burn. Pretty close to anyway. It does so for next to no heat, also awesome. I <3 the Mauler and on some maps in FW run 2 Maulers in my deck.

Mauler is significantly cooler running than the KDK3 UAC40 as well...meaning your sustained DPS is quite a big higher...though the KDK does have more burst.

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The KDK3s got the best loadout the Dire can carry in high mounts with bonus quirks. It can do either sustained DPS or an Atlas-caliber burst of damage for high heat. It's also significantly more maneuverable than the Mauler.

Actually, the best loadout is 2 UAC10 + 3 UAC5, no ghost heat, higher sustained DPS at the minor expense of a very slight difference in burst. Plus, no requirement to volley fire in pairs with that loadout either.

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Pug queue the KDK3 is out of scope for other assaults. I am curious though to see where the Mauler or Banshee is going to do something the KDK3 can't replace while being faster and having more flexibility. It can replace the Mauler for cool running sustained DPS while being faster and more maneuverable and the Banshee for burst damage while matching its speed and exceeding is mobility.

So, we look at IS assaults in the context of comp, and clan assaults in the context of the YOLO queue?

Color me confused by that premise...

[MischiefSC]

@Gyrok -

So you started with "it's the same as Mauler/Banshee/Atlas" and then went to "It's supposed to be better than anything under 100 tons". Also any mech that's OP is an issue, in any queue. Though overall balance is best identified in Comp play.

Also it's worth mentioning that every comp player you listed prior except Gas, who I haven't seen chime in on this, has said "them over the quirks on KDK3". So that does take us back to pretty much every comp player saying that (at least).

I get that arguing balance on a Clan mech with you is a waste of time but you're getting really disingenuous. This is about how balanced the KDK3 is vs all other assaults. The Mauler is better than the Highlander and almost every Banshee save arguably the Wubshee. The BLR is better than most Mauler and Atlases and Banshees and it's 85 tons. In fact there are some Zeus builds that are better than most of those at 80 tons and that's balanced. Assaults vs assaults. If the KDK3 is better than all assaults most of the time on most situations it's not balanced.

As to the worst assault... hard to say. Most the Clan assaults are trash. However there's some Victor, HIghlander and Awesomes who are probably worse. All need work. Irrelevant, completely and totally, to balancing the KDK3 by removing its quirks.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 29 May 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

@Gyrok -

So you started with "it's the same as Mauler/Banshee/Atlas" and then went to "It's supposed to be better than anything under 100 tons". Also any mech that's OP is an issue, in any queue. Though overall balance is best identified in Comp play.

I never said it is supposed to be better than other mechs of lesser tonnage. I said that those other mechs beat it in their preferred engagement range, and they do.

Clearly, as you see the KDK3, anything that is even in the same conversation must be absurdly OP in the scrub queue as well, especially the wubshee, since it really is pretty much a hands down counter to the KDK3 across the board. I see no one in here calling for nerfs to those mechs...

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Also it's worth mentioning that every comp player you listed prior except Gas, who I haven't seen chime in on this, has said "them over the quirks on KDK3". So that does take us back to pretty much every comp player saying that (at least).

You missed Gman, and about half of SJR (that I have seen) saying they though it was balanced. Strong, but not OP, were specifically Gman's words.

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I get that arguing balance on a Clan mech with you is a waste of time but you're getting really disingenuous.

This is getting old. You are the one tossing caution to the 4 winds and using hyperbole like "same agility as fast heavies", which is patently false...not even in a borderline disputable facet, either...just outright completely wrong by miles.

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This is about how balanced the KDK3 is vs all other assaults. The Mauler is better than the Highlander and almost every Banshee save arguably the Wubshee. The BLR is better than most Mauler and Atlases and Banshees and it's 85 tons. In fact there are some Zeus builds that are better than most of those at 80 tons and that's balanced. Assaults vs assaults. If the KDK3 is better than all assaults most of the time on most situations it's not balanced.

It is not better than all assaults most of the time. We established that already...you just refuse to acknowledge, which is where you are outright being disingenuous...and multiple players are calling you on it...so you get defensive, and use false logic, and untenable premises to try to shift the discussion.

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As to the worst assault... hard to say. Most the Clan assaults are trash. However there's some Victor, HIghlander and Awesomes who are probably worse. All need work. Irrelevant, completely and totally, to balancing the KDK3 by removing its quirks.

Removing the quirks is a nerf, and the mech is not OP.

Why nerf what is not OP?

[Mystere]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

Twinky, who broke the record during last week's challenge, has called it specifically "OP in the public queue".

In other words, it's not OP at all.

Or are balance decisions now supposed to be based on the scrub tiers?

[MischiefSC]

You keep listing people who are saying 'remove the quirks' and saying they support no changes.

What speed do fast heavies travel at? What is their twist rate? You know, that thing that controls how effectively you can put crosshairs on a target? Especially for torso mounted weapons? Fastest clan Heavies go about 80, fastest IS heavies go about 70. Your KDK should be going about 65. It turns 25% faster than the Banshee and twists faster than a TBR. Accelerates and decelerates 35% faster.

It's far closer to the fastest heavies than any Assault and it's more maneuverable (turn, twist, accel/decel) than most mid-range heavy mechs for the IS.

Again, really simple. Play it 1 v 1 vs any other assault. Any of them. 1 v 1. If it can beat any assault more than 50% of the time 1 v 1 it's a balance issue.

Also, again, because you keep glossing over this -

It carries the best loadout the Dire Wolf can carry, which was justified as reasonable on the Dire because the Dire handles like a pig and has bad hitboxes.... but it does it with the best maneuverability of any assault and over the shoulder mounts.

I know you want to strawman back to 'but the Executioner is bad', that doesn't matter. Irrelevant to the balance of the Kodiak.

Most assaults, most mechs in general, need fixed. That has nothing to do with the KDK3 being imbalanced. For the balance we have and the current performance expectations for top tier mechs the KDK3, specifically, is out of balance. I know that makes you happy but bad balance is bad balance.

[Belacose]

double post

Edited by Belacose, 29 May 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 29 May 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

In other words, it's not OP at all.

Or are balance decisions now supposed to be based on the scrub tiers?

You need to balance things everywhere as much as possible. Having a broken mechanic in one place isn't okay and it's absurd to say that it is. Saying 'well, yeah. It's OP in the public queue where most actual gameplay takes place but it's only a little bit OP, as in all but required, in comp tier so that's just like balanced' is another example of absurdity.

As a community we're a big part of why MW:O largely sucks. We say we want balance but what we mean is 'I want an advantage that makes me play better but everything else needs to be balanced'.

I enjoy the 5 LPL Banshee. I still say IS LPLs need burn time increased. I have 100 mechs in my mechbay, most bought with money farmed with the 2 years of OP as **** TBR. Still called for nerfing TBR until it was balanced. I supported dialing back the quirks on the BLK too. The Oxide needs dialed back. The GHR needs hitboxes tweaked to be better but could stand, in turn, some weapon quirks dialed back on the H - unless the LPL gets burntime fixed, then it's probably alright.

I own the KDK. In fact I'm still kicking myself for buying it because I supported PGI even though they have essentially done **** all nothing to make FW good and are abandoning it. The KDK3 is as good or better than the Banshee and Mauler, both, at what they respectively do in almost every way and it does it in 1 mech. I'm not alone in identifying that it's OP and needs dialed back. It also needs hitboxes fixed because they're bad.

Because a balanced game is better for everyone. Quit trying to preserve bad balance decisions. PGI does that enough already.