1017 replies to this topic

[SpectreHD]

KDK-3 nerf? It would make my stock build, which I run, bad.

2x LBX-20 and 4x ERML...

[Bishop Steiner]

Fade Akira, on 23 May 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Mate, you need to lay of the *******.

I get you like your new mech, but you need a reality check.

Please stop talking about facetanking, like everyone that slates the precious kodiak hasn't been playing this game for 3 years. I have. Its OP mate, facetanking isn't the issue, it literally deals death wherever you encounter it. Someone has to facetank it, you know that right, it is pretty ******* quick for a 100 ton assault mech with 4 UAC 10s. You cant just keep avoiding it, or 2 of them, or 5 of them as we so often see.

Not only that, i only said the KDK-3 needs a nerf. Never mentioned nerfing the others.



Aaaand, the usual bishop condescension comes out when someone doesn't agree.

Bare modicum of tactics? Well, that sounds absolutely great on the forums mate, sadly doesn't wash in pug matches or anything outside a 12 man unit drop.

Please, cut the crap.

I give exactly the proper amount of condescension and respect to a post as it deserves. If you feel like you are singled out for being patronized, mayhap there is a reason.

BTW..I PUG, on this acct, exclusively, have for 2 years. And even on my Clan Acct, I've done all of 4 drops on a team in a KDK..because it's far too slow for grinding a chassis.

And in that same time I've done about 45 drops on this acct which doesn't have KDKs... in Medium Mechs... and am not whinging butthurt.

[Reza Malin]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 05:57 PM, said:

I give exactly the proper amount of condescension and respect to a post as it deserves. If you feel like you are singled out for being patronized, mayhap there is a reason.

BTW..I PUG, on this acct, exclusively, have for 2 years. And even on my Clan Acct, I've done all of 4 drops on a team in a KDK..because it's far too slow for grinding a chassis.

And in that same time I've done about 45 drops on this acct which doesn't have KDKs... in Medium Mechs... and am not whinging butthurt.

Well done, what a hero!

Im not whinging butthurt, i play pugs in mediums, heavies and assaults. I don't have any overly poignant personal issues with KDK-3, because i avoid them where possible, however anyone who knows anything about this game, and DIDN'T buy the Kodiaks, knows the KDK-3 is OP.

Argue as you wish, but you know it, you just don't want to admit it. Nice smokescreen with your "i use mediums and are not butthurt" move. Ha ha.

GurpGork, on 23 May 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

Your meaning seems to be ... "the mech doesn't deserve a nerf".

However, just quickly browsing the leaderboards from the event over the weekend. We see the kdk3 had top pilot match scores that were on average over 1,000 points higher than the other variants !!!

Top pilots were pushing the other variants to event scores in the 3500 to 4000 range. However, boom, kdk3 top pilots pushed it all the way to 5100+. And the top 50 players for kdk3, equally matched if not beat most of the top 5 scores for all the other variants ?!?

So take a reality check, and let that sink in.

I personally am not advocating either way. I was just taking the time to look at the tourney scores, and that simple analysis was screaming at me. That doesn't mean anything ?

@BISHOP

I notice you carefully sidestepped replying to this post.....nice slip!

[1453 R]

Fade Akira, on 23 May 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Mate, you need to lay of the *******.

I get you like your new mech, but you need a reality check.

Please stop talking about facetanking, like everyone that slates the precious kodiak hasn't been playing this game for 3 years. I have. Its OP mate, facetanking isn't the issue, it literally deals death wherever you encounter it. Someone has to facetank it, you know that right, it is pretty ******* quick for a 100 ton assault mech with 4 UAC 10s. You cant just keep avoiding it, or 2 of them, or 5 of them as we so often see.

Not only that, i only said the KDK-3 needs a nerf. Never mentioned nerfing the others.

No, you don't actually have to facetank it. Not even in Puglandia. A KDK-3 with a 350cXL hits 61kph after Tweak - that is not fast. If you find one and you see its guns, bug out and come at it from a different angle. if you can't,, then leave it be until you can. Trust me - even incidental fire can wear the things down surprisingly quickly. Duck and weave, reposition, call your teammates down on it. It's the size of three houses stapled together and is spitting enuff dakka for two WAAAGHs - it's not hard to find, or focus. Don't let it stare at you.

You shouldn't ever have to derptank anything in this game. Will people do so sometimes anyways? Sure! When a game is going to pot, sometimes the best thing you have left is a Glorious Last Stand...but that's not really the fault of one Kodiak.

Seriously. Yes, cut the KDK-3's movement quirks. But for God's sake leave the other ones alone until they're proven to be problems. The Highlander IIC is more threatening than most Kodiak variants, man. The only other really notable one is the Spirit Bear, and if you let a Spirit Bear get into crazed mauling range of you without your team to back you, well...them's the breaks.

[TechChris]

Ya know BS.....

This thread....me likes!

Whenever I see ya start a new thread I almost always click em quick.
Lots have been informative (good research/stalking Russ/etc), some are just a good fun light read, and when you get into a "discussion" with folks like Sader n stuff...........its like mechporn soapopera *kisses fingertips* just magnifeco! I've actually literally poured myself a good strong drink and made some popcorn before reading a few!

But for this thread........all I can say is
THANK YOU....*tips hat* and cheers to you man!

Thankfully there's people like you to create and man threads like this, so lazy schmucks like me don't have to!

[GRiPSViGiL]

They can't nerf it until the next early cash mechs release....that is how power creep works.

[Reza Malin]

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 May 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

They can't nerf it until the next early cash mechs release....that is how power creep works.

While i am done banging my head against a wall of bias, you are correct.

Power creep at its finest.

Still waiting to see any reply about the leaderboard post though.

[Dudeman3k]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

can't help it if you try to win stare downs on a mech easily defeated with a bare modicum of tactics. But hey, Overwatch is out...go enjoy!

dude.... dude....... You might actually eat those words, and for someone who preaches "be friendly, not toxic" you have just un-invited someone into your small BT/MWO universe (which is small... and getting smaller by the day)

You can't afford to suggest such things. In fact, If you invested in the HBS BT game, I'd be ashamed to be in the same BT fandom as you.

you are sad. and you alone will be the death of this game.

and yes, I am enjoying overwatch. You enjoy this noncompetitive wanna-be balanced wreck.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 23 May 2016 - 07:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dudeman3k, on 23 May 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

dude.... dude....... You might actually eat those words, and for someone who preaches "be friendly, not toxic" you have just un-invited someone into your small BT/MWO universe (which is small... and getting smaller by the day)

You can't afford to suggest such things. In fact, If you invested in the HBS BT game, I'd be ashamed to be in the same BT fandom as you.

you are sad. and you alone will be the death of this game.

and yes, I am enjoying overwatch. You enjoy this noncompetitive wanna-be balanced wreck.

believe it or not, there are people that communities are better off without.

And no, sorry, I alone couldn't kill this game if I tried.

[Hit the Deck]

Well, just think that it was pre-buffed in the first place. and the nerf will reduce those positive quirks somewhat. It ends up still getting buffed (if PGI doesn't outright strip all of the positive quirks).


EDIT: I think everyone agrees that Kodiaks shouldn't have been released with positive quirks attached. It was actually a bit surprising to see those list of positive quirks upon release (remember Arctic Cheetah?). Well to be fair, the Spirit Bear was expected to be pre-quirked because of its brawling role (stated by Russ that they made it as a brawler).

Edited by Hit the Deck, 23 May 2016 - 07:45 PM.

[Murphy7]

Funny thing in the Arctic Cheetah comparisons regarding being released pre-quirked with some buffs: I can see why someone thought the ACH might have needed them, but I cannot see it as easily for the Kodiak.

With the state of firepower being what it is, the lighter the mech gets the closer it is to being a one-shot kill. On release, the combination of speed, profile, and firepower showed pretty clearly the ACH was instantly and markedly superior to most other light mechs, and they eventually lost the structure buffs as being unnecessary for balancing its survivability.

The Kodiak drops with the native toughness of a 100 ton mech, and enjoys the twisting higher rated engines can bring since the clan XL is more robust and taking 375 or 400 xl is quite reasonable. It appears on the scene with both agility and structure quirks before really seeing the heat of battle. I don't think either make the mech OP, but I also don't think it needed both.

I don't own the Kodiaks - I have been facing them in QP for the event and in FP and I am just not bothered by them. Yes they are strong, but not more so than a 100 tonner should be, and the vulnerabilities it has are similar to those of other 100 tonners.

It is a real shame that these things are essentially tested by a leaderboard event in public.

[Morggo]

Maybe it's Tier related?
I dropped PUG T3 all weekend. I kept loose track and I'd say my drops (across 8 hours Fri, 7 hours Saturday, 5 hours Sun) broke down roughly like
10% 0 KDK
30% 1 KDK
50% 2-3 KDK
10% 4+ KDK
Highest number I hit was 8 in one match. I made a point of bear hunting so would have given anything to see a 10-12 drop

Anyway, back to the Tier based theory... the KDK's seemed to die about the same as other mechs we faced n T3 so maybe it's the skill levels in other Tiers where issues are occurring? I got one shotted in a LCT twice in all that time... and both were my own derping fault and lack of having an escape route planned.
I found that upengined MAD's are great against them, followed by Oxide and LCT-1E (the 6SPL version simply eats bears for breakfast). I have never driven an Clan mech ever, so I'm not a Clan-lover, etc. My overall experience, they are not all that bad to face and will be even more normal in a few weeks when they are no more common than any other chassis. *shrugs*

[Bishop Steiner]

Murphy7, on 24 May 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

Funny thing in the Arctic Cheetah comparisons regarding being released pre-quirked with some buffs: I can see why someone thought the ACH might have needed them, but I cannot see it as easily for the Kodiak.

With the state of firepower being what it is, the lighter the mech gets the closer it is to being a one-shot kill. On release, the combination of speed, profile, and firepower showed pretty clearly the ACH was instantly and markedly superior to most other light mechs, and they eventually lost the structure buffs as being unnecessary for balancing its survivability.

The Kodiak drops with the native toughness of a 100 ton mech, and enjoys the twisting higher rated engines can bring since the clan XL is more robust and taking 375 or 400 xl is quite reasonable. It appears on the scene with both agility and structure quirks before really seeing the heat of battle. I don't think either make the mech OP, but I also don't think it needed both.

I don't own the Kodiaks - I have been facing them in QP for the event and in FP and I am just not bothered by them. Yes they are strong, but not more so than a 100 tonner should be, and the vulnerabilities it has are similar to those of other 100 tonners.

It is a real shame that these things are essentially tested by a leaderboard event in public.

more of a shame that the leaderboard has already been proven to be a poor laboratory, too.

[Roadkill]

Fade Akira, on 23 May 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Ok drama mongering over?

Once you stop, yes it will be.

Quote

The KDK-3 is slightly OP, its simple as that.

No, it isn't. It's as simple as that.

It's a good Mech. Finally. Being a good Mech doesn't make it even slightly OP.

Quote

It needs a nerf.

No, it doesn't. In fact all but the KDK-3 probably need buffs, especially the -1 and -5.

Quote

The only time they do less than 700 dmg, is when they dont have the obligatory 4 x UAC10 build, which is quite frankly ridiculous on that mech if anyone can shoot even half decently.

And i am talking even matches where their team loses, they still manage 500-700 dmg.....when the next closest i see is consistently much less.

Pics or it didn't happen.

I regularly see Kodiaks, including the KDK-3, sporting 200-300 damage.

It's okay for the top performer in the mission to have 700 damage, you know. That happens with all Mechs.

Quote

No, the UAC5 mauler does not come close either, i heard some fruitcakes trying that one too.

ROFL. You're beyond hopeless. The 5 AC/5 Mauler (not UAC5) will eat a Kodiak for lunch, then eat its cubs, too.

[Roadkill]

Fade Akira, on 23 May 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

Still waiting to see any reply about the leaderboard post though.

The leaderboard fallacy has been addressed repeatedly.

Comparing results from different events is apples to oranges. The numbers don't and can't line up.

Kodiaks, especially the KDK-3, have a lot of firepower that is primarily useful against large, slow targets. Coincidentally, Kodiaks are large, slow targets. So of course the KDK-3 is showing big numbers. It's basically fighting in ideal circumstances for good results.

Good luck getting numbers like those once the new-Mech frenzy is over and the distribution goes back to normal.

[Weeny Machine]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 07:20 PM, said:

believe it or not, there are people that communities are better off without.

And no, sorry, I alone couldn't kill this game if I tried.

First pulling of a drama show then using ad hominems...

Roadkill, on 24 May 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

The leaderboard fallacy has been addressed repeatedly.

Comparing results from different events is apples to oranges. The numbers don't and can't line up.

Kodiaks, especially the KDK-3, have a lot of firepower that is primarily useful against large, slow targets. Coincidentally, Kodiaks are large, slow targets. So of course the KDK-3 is showing big numbers. It's basically fighting in ideal circumstances for good results.

Good luck getting numbers like those once the new-Mech frenzy is over and the distribution goes back to normal.

First of all while numbers are not 100% accurate, right. Nevertheless they give you at least a clear indication. Also, if PGI sifts through the whole data (not just the top 50) of the Kodiak event, then numbers give even a stronger indication.

Also, you basically say that Kodiak-3 is good vs the heavies and assaults. That is partly right. This thing eats assaults and heavies alive.
Now to the faster mechs: of course the UACs are not as efficient vs those mechs as vs the slower targets. However, the sheer volume of fire is a problem - and as a fast mech you need to get close to shoot back. The problem is, the Kodiak-3 has an easier time to hit you as well. What now? Run away to let the heavies deal with...oh wait...those are his prefered prey. Well, we have problem here.

Another thing is accuracy. There are good shots out there which can easily hit fast moving lights with at least a part of their 4 UACs. A light mech cannot take many of those hits. If you cannot hit lights, well then it is not a shortcoming of the KDK-3 but of you. Heck, I am surly no good shot but even I get a lot of the UAC salvo into a light with my Hunchi IIC (which is not even mastered)


All in all I do not really care anymore. I play very casually MWO nowadays. Why? Well, the TTK gets lower and lower thanks to the power creep. As I said before some people here in this thread who defend the Kodiak-3 were complaining in the past about a low TTK and power creep yet act aggressive when anyone says something negative about their shiny new toy.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 24 May 2016 - 10:33 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

I don’t have any Kodiaks yet, but have fought against a lot of them, and don’t think they are OP.
If or when I buy them once they are available for C-Bills however I’d like them all to be good and not just have one that’s miles ahead of the others

Everyone who’s saying balancing the Kodiak before it’s been out for a while is right; comparing it to anything during this event is futile. But there is one thing this event can show us, and is actually the best time for the very reasons people say it’s a bad time, and that’s to compare it with itself, or more precisely the differing versions of itself.

If you take all the scores from the event, divide that by the number of scores (300) you get a reasonable average.
Do the same for each variant and you can get a reasonable average of how good each version is if 100% is the norm.

KDK-1 – 92%
KDK-2 – 95%
KDK-3 – 138%
KDK-4 – 89%
KDK-5 – 81%
KDK-SB – 105%

This would be more accurate if they all had the same quirks, so you’d expect the KDK-1 & KDK-5 to be a bit lower.
There being a 57% deferential between the best and the worst probably needs balancing, whether that’s buffing some or nerfing others I’m not really fussed I’m just looking for an even keel.

I’m sure people can pick holes in these stats, like if 4,000 people play the KDK-3 and only 600 plays the KDK-5 the averages of the top 50 of each just can’t be representative. So I’ll just call this a rough measure that may or may not represent the stats on the leader board page.

[Roadkill]

Bush Hopper, on 24 May 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

First of all while numbers are not 100% accurate, right. Nevertheless they give you at least a clear indication.

No, they don't. Not relative to each other.

Each tournament creates its own special environment. Take the KDK-3 out during the Viper release tournament and see how well you do. (Hint: it probably won't be good.) Or take a quint-AC/5 MX90 out during the Kodiak craze and lay waste at range... does that make the MX90 even more OP than the KDK-3? (Hint: no, it's just perfectly suited to killing KDK-3s at range.)

Vipers are going to score lower than Kodiaks because a) they carry less firepower, there will be fewer damage points on the battlefield available to harvest, and c) they're fast movers and so are harder to hit.

About the only thing you can get from a tournament is what Doman Hugin posted - the relative strengths of the variants within the chassis. Even that isn't perfect, though, because as with the KDK-3 sometimes one variant is particularly well suited to killing the chassis in general. Take a KDK-3 and a KDK-1 into the Viper tournament and I suspect the KDK-1 will perform better. It's just easier to hit a fast mover with lasers than with UACs.

People want the tournament results to mean something, but they don't because the results aren't created in the same environments.

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chicken Littles wont stop until the KDK3 is nerfed into obscurity, so since we know it's going to happen, can we just get it done with?

And since we know PGI can't do anything without going to extremes, just get ready for it to be worthless.

My only real question is after the 3 falls, which poor KDK will earn the ire of the Butthurt masses next? I only ask, because I'd like to know before spending time, money, effort, etc, mastering versions that are just going to get Highlander'd.

I am guessing the next target of the OP whinefest will be the Spirit Bear, which of course will also get the inevitable "P2W" tag?

I stopped playing over the weekend because of the ****** hit reg and server stabilty, not the KdK-3

Now Warhammer's on total war god knows when I'll be back, lucky there was chaos and not Dark elves on the dlc or I'd safely be said to retired from here

[Dawnstealer]

With all the weapons jammed up in the torsos, it's not a real hard mech to counter - just don't charge it when it's facing you or you're going to have a really bad time. It's a hundred ton mech, after all...