1017 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

I'm saying see how it plays out in the tournament. If the SB comes out as top of T1 I'm against hero mechs being a must-have. On principle. Buff a cbill one up instead. Totally unrelated to other KDK discussion, applies to Oxide and Butterbee too. $55 mech packs are already bordering on ********, especially with the several months of exclusive access. 2 or 3 weeks? Maybe. 2 or 3 months? **** that. Don't add Hero mechs with top of T1 performance.

While I'm happy to see how the tournament and other examples play out on the SB a 100 ton fast striker assault that's mixed in equal measure with other striker assaults is great. If it's the preferred mech 75% of the time... dial it back aa tiny bit. 10% off the quirks or the like.

Hero mechs that are the best in class though? Nah. Eff that.



Except the tournament results and contest results and general consensus of comp play does show it. As discussed prior. We just have the 3x4 restrictions back in place and weeks of everyone playing it non-stop.

Except they don't. Lots of KDK3, not many SB, and in the leader boards event they were pretty avg.

Try again

[Jown7676]

I'm going to post my thoughts on the KDK-3 as I am also of the mind that it is OP as it stands now. Here are my reasons why.

Speed. The KDK-3 is much faster than any other mech of it's class with the amount of firepower it can carry. The DW can carry the same firepower but is very slow and has a limited torso twist. The Atlas has to sacrifice alot of speed to get the same firepower as the KDK-3 as does the King Crab.

Weapons. Clan weapons are smaller and in general lighter than the IS counterparts. Thus allowing for more weapons and ammo, this is by design and I won't argue it. However, this allows the KDK-3 to pack much more ammo for lighter weapons compared to any other mech in the class. This includes quad UAC-10s or quad Gauss rifles.

Armor and structure. Due to the clan FF and ES using much less space for the same amount of usefulness, much more room is available for use for ammo or weapons and the fact that the KDK-3 carries the same armor and structure as the DW, KC, and Atlas makes it very difficult to kill.

Combine this with a macro, one topic that I do agree with is macros being allowed as I use them often myself, and there is not one other mech in the game that can match the KDK-3. I have watched games were a single KDK-3 has taken out 5 other full health heavy and assault class mechs by itself.

I have also, however, found several weak points as well. First the KDK-3 seems to not have any side torsos at all. It seems that all damage goes to the CT no matter where you hit it. So shots from the side are very effective. Back shots are also effective for going through the thin armor. The trick is not staying behind it and letting it turn and find you. Lights are very good in this roll. Finally, even though it's very fast for it's size, it is still an assault class mech. Hit and run, using cover and attacking weak points are all key.

Now as I stated before, I am of the mindset that the KDK-3 is OP. And this comes from many matches of getting blown apart by one and watching it plow through everyone in it's path. The fact that it can carry 4 UAC-10s or 4 Gauss rifles make it very problematic at worst. Now at the same time, a drastic nerf will be doing it a disservice but I believe the best "nerf" is to increase the jam chance some and limit the number of Gauss rifles that can be mounted. I state this due to watching a KDK-3 with 2 UAC-10s and 2 Gauss rifles being used once. This is troublesome but not the unstoppable juggernaut that the quad versions are.

Thank you.

[Scout Derek]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Okay, so let's recap, Bishop, MischiefSC, let's make it simple here;

Bishop thinks KDK-3 is a stronger variant of the Kodiak's and needs to be toned down,

Mischief thinks the KDK-3 AND the Spirit Bear needs to be knocked down.

Am I missing something here? if I am, correct me once you see this.


So you both agree that the KDK-3 needs to be toned down, right?

So why not, instead of prolonging a argument that will possibly go nowhere as well as infuriate one another, work on a solution that will fix it appropriately instead of yelling at each other?

Because right now you really look childish, and just letting people eat their popcorn and watch and laugh at you both.

And once that's done and over with, work on one, ONE variant to balance out and when you both think you're done discussing that, move onto the next variant, and so on.

Compliance only works if you allow it and are able to dumb it down so anyone reading can follow along, otherwise it's a shouting contest which embarrassed you.

This is why I'm fed up with the forums, because people like you two get into it and it turns ugly, and insult or harass others that stand in your way earlier.

It also reinforces the old term "This is why we can't have nice things".

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Best way to nerf the kdk, is to release a new mechpack!

Behold... The Phoenix Hawk IIC in all its glory!
80 ton clan assault battlemech with an xl400!
Varients include models with 4x ballistic slots, or 4x missle slots... Heck they even have a laser boat for your pew pewing pleasure!

Not only is it agile, but by design, its also probably a lot thinner in profile then the kdk! Get your wallets ready, because when this bad boy hits the battlefield, all will tremble in its wake!

[Bishop Steiner]

Procurator Derek, on 10 June 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Okay, so let's recap, Bishop, MischiefSC, let's make it simple here;

Bishop thinks KDK-3 is a stronger variant of the Kodiak's and needs to be toned down,

Mischief thinks the KDK-3 AND the Spirit Bear needs to be knocked down.

Am I missing something here? if I am, correct me once you see this.


So you both agree that the KDK-3 needs to be toned down, right?

So why not, instead of prolonging a argument that will possibly go nowhere as well as infuriate one another, work on a solution that will fix it appropriately instead of yelling at each other?

Because right now you really look childish, and just letting people eat their popcorn and watch and laugh at you both.

And once that's done and over with, work on one, ONE variant to balance out and when you both think you're done discussing that, move onto the next variant, and so on.

Compliance only works if you allow it and are able to dumb it down so anyone reading can follow along, otherwise it's a shouting contest which embarrassed you.

This is why I'm fed up with the forums, because people like you two get into it and it turns ugly, and insult or harass others that stand in your way earlier.

It also reinforces the old term "This is why we can't have nice things".

Well, for one I don't know if the KDK3 needs nerfing for a certainty. But it's without a doubt the strongest KDK and the only one that anyone has made any credible arguments to support.

My issue, as the OP punts out, is that once you go there, then we open the door for exactly this:. Now we're talking nerfing the SB. And after that... Oh the KDK4 becomes the top KDK... So what, nerf it too.

Which to be honest, it's purely asinine and counter top balance.

As for the KDK3, I've stated it multiple times over the last what..... 3 pages?. Propose a neg that actually fixes the perceived problem and I'll not only consider it, but support it. But removing the mobility quirks only affects the very top players.... Because the unwashed masses running 4xUAC10 aren't leveraging that mobility. They stare , doubly so because because it's adps build.

So end of the day, the KDK3 gets a nerf, most people seer no change, so the QQ continues, and so we are looking at round two of nerfs, going down that lovely path that left the Victor useless.

And then... On top of it, oh let's nerf the rest of the KDKs just for the hell of it.

THAT'S my issue with all this.

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

Well, for one I don't know if the KDK3 needs nerfing for a certainty. But it's without a doubt the strongest KDK and the only one that anyone has made any credible arguments to support.

My issue, as the OP punts out, is that once you go there, then we open the door for exactly this:. Now we're talking nerfing the SB. And after that... Oh the KDK4 becomes the top KDK... So what, nerf it too.

Which to be honest, it's purely asinine and counter top balance.

As for the KDK3, I've stated it multiple times over the last what..... 3 pages?. Propose a neg that actually fixes the perceived problem and I'll not only consider it, but support it. But removing the mobility quirks only affects the very top players.... Because the unwashed masses running 4xUAC10 aren't leveraging that mobility. They stare , doubly so because because it's adps build.

So end of the day, the KDK3 gets a nerf, most people seer no change, so the QQ continues, and so we are looking at round two of nerfs, going down that lovely path that left the Victor useless.

And then... On top of it, oh let's nerf the rest of the KDKs just for the hell of it.

THAT'S my issue with all this.

So your solution is to propose/support a neg quirk that you believe will put it in line? But you are also do not want to do it for sure yet because then we lead down the road to wiping out a chassis clean and making it useless?

Conflicting ideals here I can see, not much, but enough to notice.

You would support a reasonable tone down for the KDK-3, but also afraid it's going to cause a domino effect?

Which dbed down to means

Willing to support change, but afraid of change because it might lead to unnecessary changes, AKA Witch hunt that's reasonable but that may lead to other unnecessary witch hunts?

This is what I'm pulling from what you are saying, I can be wrong at times though, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Bishop Steiner]

Procurator Derek, on 10 June 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

So your solution is to propose/support a neg quirk that you believe will put it in line? But you are also do not want to do it for sure yet because then we lead down the road to wiping out a chassis clean and making it useless?

Conflicting ideals here I can see, not much, but enough to notice.

You would support a reasonable tone down for the KDK-3, but also afraid it's going to cause a domino effect?

Which dbed down to means

Willing to support change, but afraid of change because it might lead to unnecessary changes, AKA Witch hunt that's reasonable but that may lead to other unnecessary witch hunts?

This is what I'm pulling from what you are saying, I can be wrong at times though, correct me if I'm wrong.

No. I mean I am against any knee-jerk charges that won't actually fix the perceived issue to begin with.

And that I am totally against this snowballing crusade of Mischief's leading to napalm nerfing an entire chassis over the sins of one single variant.

But when and if, folks can propose a solution to fix the actual perceived issue, that I indeed will support if, if the need is proven warranted.

So our Nerfwarriors have the entire tournament too come up worth an answer that actually solves the claimed problem. Which meeting the mobility actually won't to do, outside of comp tiers.

You tell me. In the GenPop here in MWO.... Just what percentage of players do You actually see leveraging that mobility on their dread StareBears?. Almost none. Thus, for the majority of the player base, will the mobility nerf actually impact the uac10 build?

If not, then the QQ WILL continue.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 June 2016 - 11:28 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

No. I mean I am against any knee-jerk charges that won't actually fix the perceived issue to begin with.

And that I am totally against this snowballing crusade of Mischief's leading to napalm nerfing an entire chassis over the sins pic one single variant.

But wham and if, folks can propose a solution to fix the actual perceived issue, that I indeed will support if, if the need is proven warranted.

So our Nerfwarriors have the entire tournament too come up worth an answer that actually solves the claimed problem. Which meeting the mobility actually won't to do, outside of comp tiers.

You tell me. In the GenPop here in MWO.... Just what percentage of players do You actually see leveraging that mobility on their dread StareBears?. Almost none. Thus, for the majority of the player base, will the mobility nerf actually impact the uac10 build?

If not, then the QQ WILL continue.

Not here to argue Bishop, nor discuss this, I came here to understand viewpoints. I now have yours, and await Mischief's position on this.

[Aetes Nakatomi]

I have a way to fix the KDK-3 problem... Take PPFLD and blow out one of its humongous side torsos instead of face tanking it.

But then we are likely talking about the people scared of six AC2 Kingcrabs and three AC2 Shadowhawks... Four UAC10 a powerful but they are not the terror machine lots of people make them out to be, you just have to be cautious around them and not wander around the battlefield like a blind clown.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aetes Nakatomi, on 10 June 2016 - 11:43 PM, said:

I have a way to fix the KDK-3 problem... Take PPFLD and blow out one of its humongous side torsos instead of face tanking it.

But then we are likely talking about the people scared of six AC2 Kingcrabs and three AC2 Shadowhawks... Four UAC10 a powerful but they are not the terror machine lots of people make them out to be, you just have to be cautious around them and not wander around the battlefield like a blind clown.

Now let's not talk crazy talk now.

Why expect tactics and gittinggud when one can just cry for PGI to nerf instead.

*sigh*

Sad part is, in the public queues, I rarely see KDKs really being that impressive. Some here or there, but not all that common. I'll admit it's a dang good chassis though, the 3 is a legit tier 1. Maybe more. But the funny thing is, the place that the 3 is potentially dominating?. Isn't even using the 4xUAC10 build.


Who'd a thunk?

[Aetes Nakatomi]

I used the four UAC10 build for a few games, it was funny to catch people out of position and to splat other face tankers. But one good pilot sees you and you are done for, far too much face time. As for the people scared of macro/group fire that 'stun lock' people with AC it is laughable, twist your torso to spread the damage and get back in cover (if there is no cover around you, you have bigger problems than AC boats... A PPFLD damage would have likely just killed you outright).

I just find it quite funny that the build everyone is scared of and wants the variant nerfed for isn't even slightly the best build. I love my KDKs and I love my 3, it would be a shame to see it get destroyed because some people think they do not need to battlefield awareness.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aetes Nakatomi, on 11 June 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

I used the four UAC10 build for a few games, it was funny to catch people out of position and to splat other face tankers. But one good pilot sees you and you are done for, far too much face time. As for the people scared of macro/group fire that 'stun lock' people with AC it is laughable, twist your torso to spread the damage and get back in cover (if there is no cover around you, you have bigger problems than AC boats... A PPFLD damage would have likely just killed you outright).

I just find it quite funny that the build everyone is scared of and wants the variant nerfed for isn't even slightly the best build. I love my KDKs and I love my 3, it would be a shame to see it get destroyed because some people think they do not need to battlefield awareness.

Handful of top tier players farm the hell out of queues absolutely loaded with mediocre pilots in fat mechs, early on when no one knows how to deal with them yet.....

And folks wanna ruin without any proof that it's the most Uber thing ever, when nearly nobody else comes closer to replicating those results.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 June 2016 - 07:49 AM.

[Corrado]

on the KDK3 i agree on the part that removing mobility quirks will totally vaporize other good builds (4xLBX10, 2xLBX20 and any non DPS facetank build).

if PGI see a problem with the 4UAC10 build, apply soft neg quirks on UAC10s. Either:

- +10% jam chance
- +10% UAC10 heat generation
- +UAC10 crits receiving
- +10% UAC10 cooldown.

one or more... simple. i'd rather have my 4UAC10 kodiak toned down than completely scrap out the entire line.

Aetes Nakatomi, on 11 June 2016 - 12:01 AM, said:

I used the four UAC10 build for a few games, it was funny to catch people out of position and to splat other face tankers. But one good pilot sees you and you are done for, far too much face time. As for the people scared of macro/group fire that 'stun lock' people with AC it is laughable, twist your torso to spread the damage and get back in cover (if there is no cover around you, you have bigger problems than AC boats... A PPFLD damage would have likely just killed you outright).

I just find it quite funny that the build everyone is scared of and wants the variant nerfed for isn't even slightly the best build. I love my KDKs and I love my 3, it would be a shame to see it get destroyed because some people think they do not need to battlefield awareness.

this. funny thing, a NARC+LRM boat does the same thing without even the need to aim or have LOS.

[Wing 0]

Whoever it was that made this thread in the beginning must have been idiots who didn't buy a single dose of Kodiaks for their own. pathetic. truly. Kodiak is just fine since we see a lot of idiots running mechs that have serious structure buffs related on the innersphere side of the table. guess what, learn to deal with it. I am tired of dealing with ******* who cling on to those structure buff mechs and its gotten really old and boring as fk right now. The Kodiaks right now help out on evening those odds. you don't like it? you can always give up or deal with it. if you havnt bought them and are complaining about Kodiaks being op, don't say a ------- word. Play with those mechs first before making a dumb assessment.

Corrado, on 11 June 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

on the KDK3 i agree on the part that removing mobility quirks will totally vaporize other good builds (4xLBX10, 2xLBX20 and any non DPS facetank build).

if PGI see a problem with the 4UAC10 build, apply soft neg quirks on UAC10s. Either:

- +10% jam chance
- +10% UAC10 heat generation
- +UAC10 crits receiving
- +10% UAC10 cooldown.

one or more... simple. i'd rather have my 4UAC10 kodiak toned down than completely scrap out the entire line.

That's never going to happen since PGI said that they aint going to place negative quirks
on clan tech anymore.

[Reza Malin]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

No. I mean I am against any knee-jerk charges that won't actually fix the perceived issue to begin with.

And that I am totally against this snowballing crusade of Mischief's leading to napalm nerfing an entire chassis over the sins of one single variant.

But when and if, folks can propose a solution to fix the actual perceived issue, that I indeed will support if, if the need is proven warranted.

So our Nerfwarriors have the entire tournament too come up worth an answer that actually solves the claimed problem. Which meeting the mobility actually won't to do, outside of comp tiers.

You tell me. In the GenPop here in MWO.... Just what percentage of players do You actually see leveraging that mobility on their dread StareBears?. Almost none. Thus, for the majority of the player base, will the mobility nerf actually impact the uac10 build?

If not, then the QQ WILL continue.

What is this leveraging he keeps going on about? Ill address others as he has me on ignore because he can't handle straight up discussion.

There is no leveraging. It moves in and out of cover faster. it turns faster. It does things generally faster.

When i say faster, i mean faster than the other KDK's, and most other assaults in the game. Its not leveraging, again Bishop talks about these things like he feels 90% of the MWO players are imbeciles. It really annoys the crap out of me. He talks about this leveraging like its some masterclass only he knows about.

the reality is, its moving in and out of cover quicker, flanking quicker, pushing quicker, etc etc. Making yourself harder to hit generally. I didn't realise this was all some new tactic, i see people "leveraging" all the time. If the quirks were removed, it would actually affect many people, not just Bishop's perceived inner circle of pilots he thinks are the only good ones in existence.

My vote is nerf the quirks on the KDK3. I have no idea why the KDK3 variant has quirks that the other variants dont. No idea. It already has the best hardpoints. Whether its UAC10s or whatever, 4 x head level ballistic torso mounts are absolutely amazing. That alone almost makes it a superior mech to many others.

[Corrado]

Fade Akira, on 11 June 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

What is this leveraging he keeps going on about? Ill address others as he has me on ignore because he can't handle straight up discussion.

There is no leveraging. It moves in and out of cover faster. it turns faster. It does things generally faster.

When i say faster, i mean faster than the other KDK's, and most other assaults in the game. Its not leveraging, again Bishop talks about these things like he feels 90% of the MWO players are imbeciles. It really annoys the crap out of me. He talks about this leveraging like its some masterclass only he knows about.

the reality is, its moving in and out of cover quicker, flanking quicker, pushing quicker, etc etc. Making yourself harder to hit generally. I didn't realise this was all some new tactic, i see people "leveraging" all the time. If the quirks were removed, it would actually affect many people, not just Bishop's perceived inner circle of pilots he thinks are the only good ones in existence.

My vote is nerf the quirks on the KDK3. I have no idea why the KDK3 variant has quirks that the other variants dont. No idea. It already has the best hardpoints. Whether its UAC10s or whatever, 4 x head level ballistic torso mounts are absolutely amazing. That alone almost makes it a superior mech to many others.

simple. PGI balance heads were afraid of laservomit kodiaks and left em without quirks, not even thinking the KDK3 was obviously the best variant, with the KDK4 just behind. (as soon as the hardpoints showcase in the preorder page was out i already knew i would build the KDK3 with 4UAC10s).

KDK2 ,KDK1 and probably the 5, are the worst variants. is a proof that quirks team missed the shot.

[Sjorpha]

Fade Akira, on 11 June 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

What is this leveraging he keeps going on about? Ill address others as he has me on ignore because he can't handle straight up discussion.

There is no leveraging. It moves in and out of cover faster. it turns faster. It does things generally faster.

When i say faster, i mean faster than the other KDK's, and most other assaults in the game. Its not leveraging, again Bishop talks about these things like he feels 90% of the MWO players are imbeciles. It really annoys the crap out of me. He talks about this leveraging like its some masterclass only he knows about.

the reality is, its moving in and out of cover quicker, flanking quicker, pushing quicker, etc etc. Making yourself harder to hit generally. I didn't realise this was all some new tactic, i see people "leveraging" all the time. If the quirks were removed, it would actually affect many people, not just Bishop's perceived inner circle of pilots he thinks are the only good ones in existence.

Yeah, exactly. You don't need to be especially good to benefit from agility, it's a big advantage at all levels.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 11 June 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

Yeah, exactly. You don't need to be especially good to benefit from agility, it's a big advantage at all levels.

Except that you do. Because most players simply stare and facetank. Hence the agility wont matter.

Wing 0, on 11 June 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

Whoever it was that made this thread in the beginning must have been idiots who didn't buy a single dose of Kodiaks for their own. pathetic. truly. Kodiak is just fine since we see a lot of idiots running mechs that have serious structure buffs related on the innersphere side of the table. guess what, learn to deal with it. I am tired of dealing with ******* who cling on to those structure buff mechs and its gotten really old and boring as fk right now. The Kodiaks right now help out on evening those odds. you don't like it? you can always give up or deal with it. if you havnt bought them and are complaining about Kodiaks being op, don't say a ------- word. Play with those mechs first before making a dumb assessment.




That's never going to happen since PGI said that they aint going to place negative quirks
on clan tech anymore.

Maybe you should try readin g the actual OP.

Oh, btw, I own all the KDKs and am trying to keep idiocy from ruining all of them over the perceived OP nature of a single build on a single variant.

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 June 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

Except that you do. Because most players simply stare and facetank. Hence the agility wont matter.

That's not my experience at all, and don't see any other evidence for it either.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 11 June 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

That's not my experience at all, and don't see any other evidence for it either.

I'm happy for you. Truly, I am.