1017 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Nerfing the Kodiak is a bad idea.

[Mystere]

Math! That's what we need here, Math. The pro-nerf folks need to show via mathematical proof that the KDK3 is indisputably OP. They also need to show the Math for their proposed nerfs confirming that they will not obliterate the chassis.

Math. Do it for science, please.

Balance based on "feeling" -- and not hard numbers -- is just plain bad.

Edited by Mystere, 11 June 2016 - 11:54 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Sjorpha, on 11 June 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

That's not my experience at all, and don't see any other evidence for it either.

This.

Bishop is so condescending, i find it quite repulsive.

Yes occasionally some new players might not know how to roll damage, or some Rambo shows up and dies in the first 30 seconds.

However generally, when i shoot people, i see torso twisting. I see people poking,and reappearing in another spot rather than into my waiting crosshairs. I see average play on a level that will always benefit from extra agility.

I really have no idea what he is actually talking about saying people stare at KDK-3's. If by stare, he means you sometimes come fact to face with one you didn't see, and suddenly get your CT opened within 10 seconds, then yes that happen a lot.

Unless you are in a premade team on TS, i don't understand why it is surprising that sometimes people end up in front of KDK's, and any other assaults. It happens. Regardless what mech i am in, i always use dead ground to maneuver towards the enemy team unless there is no choice at all, as i am nearly always brawler focused. Just because an assault is large, does not mean everyone always knows where they are on the battlefield.

If everyone could just easily avoid being in front of clan assaults, no one would use them. Yet they do. Otherwise no one would drive them. Its not incompetence, its battlefield conditions, and the fact the KDK-3 is bloody quick on its feet for 100 tons of blinding armour vanishing dakka.

Saying most players don't use agility in this game is just a straight up naive lie.

Edited by Fade Akira, 11 June 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fade Akira, on 11 June 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

However generally, when i shoot people, i see torso twisting. I see people poking,and reappearing in another spot rather than into my waiting crosshairs. I see average play on a level that will always benefit from extra agility.

"Experiences may vary"

Depending on when you play, you may see a variety of skill, I have seen plenty of people just stare while I nail their CT or make terrible pokes trying to hit me.

[MischiefSC]

Procurator Derek, on 10 June 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Okay, so let's recap, Bishop, MischiefSC, let's make it simple here;

Bishop thinks KDK-3 is a stronger variant of the Kodiak's and needs to be toned down,

Mischief thinks the KDK-3 AND the Spirit Bear needs to be knocked down.

Am I missing something here? if I am, correct me once you see this.


So you both agree that the KDK-3 needs to be toned down, right?

So why not, instead of prolonging a argument that will possibly go nowhere as well as infuriate one another, work on a solution that will fix it appropriately instead of yelling at each other?

Because right now you really look childish, and just letting people eat their popcorn and watch and laugh at you both.

And once that's done and over with, work on one, ONE variant to balance out and when you both think you're done discussing that, move onto the next variant, and so on.

Compliance only works if you allow it and are able to dumb it down so anyone reading can follow along, otherwise it's a shouting contest which embarrassed you.

This is why I'm fed up with the forums, because people like you two get into it and it turns ugly, and insult or harass others that stand in your way earlier.

It also reinforces the old term "This is why we can't have nice things".

I don't think the SB is OP. I think one of the cbill variants needs brought to its same level in the same role, cuz hero mech.

I'd prefer the kdk4 because otherwise that poor thing will never see the light of day.

KDK3 has the same issues the TBR does. Magic mix of mobility and firepower to throw the curve. 3M is already fuzzy side of balanced, is XL keeps it in check and IS LPLS need a small burn duration increase. Atlas and Mauler are gimped by speed and mobility keeping them from capitalizing fully on their firepower.

KDK3 has none of that and blows 35% past the already edgy 3M on mobility, plus high mounts and cxl making it pretty much ideal in any situation. Adjust for pinpoint or monster DPS as needed. Hence why I say remove quirks, fix hitboxes, re-evaluate.

Edited by MischiefSC, 11 June 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 10 June 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

Because the DW is a knuckle dragger...it would have to literally have more mobility/agility and better twist, plus a shrink to even be relevant at this point.

It is literally so far behind the other relevant assaults that you literally need not bother discussing the Whale as a meta option. It simply is completely outclassed across the board.

If you un-nerf Gauss, un-nerf the skill tree, un-nerf the torso twist, and un-nerf speed tweak all together, it would still not make the DW a better option in a brawl over the Splatlas. It would still make it unviable in a poke fest against a wubshee or wubmaster. It would require meticulous positioning to have a chance against a MAL or KDK that peek considerably better, and the DW would have to be well supported to even get close to being competitive against any of those.

There really is no world, right now, where the old meta whale gets a reprieve shy of a massive buff.

I would like the DWF to get rescale and all but reworked, including animations fixed.

Any mech with less than 90 degrees torso twist is imo bad. We really need a reasonable standardized mobility profile as a baseline that can be scaled UP in lieu of quirks but not down. Making a mech gimped for mobility as a "balance factor" is as crappy as bad hitboxes.

I'm very flexible on what to do with the DWF. A slower but more heavily armed match for an Atlas works - all I can do is speculate on where the durability balance is there. Only concern I would have with any mech is that regardless of speed high durability and high firepower together seems problematic.

The model needs fixed and it needs to be able to twist. PGI gave up on capping mechs for combined mobility and firepower a year ago to sell power creep. The DWF is a relic of a bygone age, like the limited hardpoints on the K2 and other gimpy to old mechs. They're not going to kick every new mech for the last 18 months down so let's get everything else up to speed.

While you're at it size the Gargles and Smexecutioner small for their tonnage. If an Omni has an atypical design profile like a huge ( other just bigish but huge) engine and hardpoint issues then I think it's fair to let it play to those strengths with a slimmer profile.

Like how the Shawk, cursed with ballistics and missiles in an Era when both were mediocre was able to shine based on slim profile and mobility.

DWF was ****** because at the time we thought 40pt alpha was almost too high. Now that's acceptable on a light, maybe. So let's move forward. With the release of 2C mechs I'm game with Omnis getting a better blessing from the scaling gods. Given PGIs history with quirks I'm not confident in their ability to balance quirks on omnipods.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

I don't think the SB is OP. I think one of the cbill variants needs brought to its same level in the same role, cuz hero mech.

I'd prefer the kdk4 because otherwise that poor thing will never see the light of day.

KDK3 has the same issues the TBR does. Magic mix of mobility and firepower to throw the curve. 3M is already fuzzy side of balanced, is XL keeps it in check and IS LPLS need a small burn duration increase. Atlas and Mauler are gimped by speed and mobility keeping them from capitalizing fully on their firepower.

KDK3 has none of that and blows 35% past the already edgy 3M on mobility, plus high mounts and cxl making it pretty much ideal in any situation. Adjust for pinpoint or monster DPS as needed. Hence why I say remove quirks, fix hitboxes, re-evaluate.

KDK4 it's already solid, At least leeway for those who can think outside of boating.

So if by your own admission SB is not OP, why stop got on nerfing it,?. Buff the fam 4 I'd you feel it needs to be better, but peremptory nerfs on a mech you just stated ain't OP? That is why I'm opposing you so vigorously

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 June 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

KDK4 it's already solid, At least leeway for those who can think outside of boating.

So if by your own admission SB is not OP, why stop got on nerfing it,?. Buff the fam 4 I'd you feel it needs to be better, but peremptory nerfs on a mech you just stated ain't OP? That is why I'm opposing you so vigorously

Hero mech. Same with Oxide and Butterbee, Grid Iron et al. If you've got hero mechs that are best in class it's another broken promise (they were always said to be side grade never upgrade) and a another nudge down the already steady slide in to cash grab.

I'm not a fan of T1 heroes. Especially on an edge case like the KDK. I thought you were a fan of longer ttk? I'd be happy with an across the board small dial back. Remember when a 35pt alpha was average?

Another topic for another time.

I'm saying hero mechs should be average. SB, whatever. Unrelated to the KDK topic. The Butterbee is coming out with the best hardpoint options on any single Cat chassis. Also call BS on that. Inflate the others up to the new 8 standard.

[Reza Malin]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 June 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

KDK4 it's already solid, At least leeway for those who can think outside of boating.

So if by your own admission SB is not OP, why stop got on nerfing it,?. Buff the fam 4 I'd you feel it needs to be better, but peremptory nerfs on a mech you just stated ain't OP? That is why I'm opposing you so vigorously

Proof right here that Bishop reads only half of someone's posts before going into full nerd rage at what he perceives has been said.

Read Mischief's previous posts and then try and make sense of quoted one, i dare you.

Edited by Fade Akira, 11 June 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Hero mech. Same with Oxide and Butterbee, Grid Iron et al. If you've got hero mechs that are best in class it's another broken promise (they were always said to be side grade never upgrade) and a another nudge down the already steady slide in to cash grab.

I'm not a fan of T1 heroes. Especially on an edge case like the KDK. I thought you were a fan of longer ttk? I'd be happy with an across the board small dial back. Remember when a 35pt alpha was average?

Another topic for another time.

I'm saying hero mechs should be average. SB, whatever. Unrelated to the KDK topic. The Butterbee is coming out with the best hardpoint options on any single Cat chassis. Also call BS on that. Inflate the others up to the new 8 standard.

And yet it ain't best in class. KDK4 is solid, and KDK3 is better. Even with the laughably myopic mobility nerfs being proposed the KDK3 will still be the best.

And sorry but if Heroes all suck...I'm sorry...are average (which means, in meta terms..suck) then why buy one? Heroes should be good, heroes shoudl be unique from the rest of the variants. Spirit Bear does that and by your own admission

IS
NOT
OP

Comparing the SB to the Oxide is utter bull. And the Butterbee we don't even have yet. So while I may be trepidatious, it's truly drama queen to be trying to use it as an excuse to nerf the SB.

Thus pushing to nerf it is simply butthurt agenda, driven by your opinion, nothing more dude.

Also, of note to your little sycophant Fade Akira...you are on my ignore list, so trying to talk to me is a pointless endeavor. Have fun.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 June 2016 - 01:54 PM.

[Green Mamba]

When is The CBILL purchase release date.There is your answer

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 June 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

And yet it ain't best in class. KDK4 is solid, and KDK3 is better. Even with the laughably myopic mobility nerfs being proposed the KDK3 will still be the best.

And sorry but if Heroes all suck...I'm sorry...are average (which means, in meta terms..suck) then why buy one? Heroes should be good, heroes shoudl be unique from the rest of the variants. Spirit Bear does that and by your own admission

IS
NOT
OP

Comparing the SB to the Oxide is utter bull. And the Butterbee we don't even have yet. So while I may be trepidatious, it's truly drama queen to be trying to use it as an excuse to nerf the SB.

Thus pushing to nerf it is simply butthurt agenda, driven by your opinion, nothing more dude.

Also, of note to your little sycophant Fade Akira...you are on my ignore list, so trying to talk to me is a pointless endeavor. Have fun.

You buy hero mechs because you want them. Same reason you buy any other mech. If you're in favor of heroes being top meta, well, I'm sure PGI would agree - nothing like power creep for money!

My agenda is a balanced game and extending ttk in favor of power creep. Your agenda seems to be power creep and wanting to pay extra for an advatage. Also irrational and baseless insults.

You are the only person here acting butthurt. The KDK3 is a license to print money for me. In the same way I used the OP as **** TBR to grind literally enough cbills to buy 72 mechs I can use the KDK3 with a variety of builds to farm cbills relentlessly until it's balanced and then I'll still play it.

Hero mechs that are T1 are cheap as ****. It's always been that way but before PGI worked to keep them balanced. Now they're power creep for cash. You seem to be okay with that, I'm not.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

You buy hero mechs because you want them. Same reason you buy any other mech. If you're in favor of heroes being top meta, well, I'm sure PGI would agree - nothing like power creep for money!

My agenda is a balanced game and extending ttk in favor of power creep. Your agenda seems to be power creep and wanting to pay extra for an advatage. Also irrational and baseless insults.

You are the only person here acting butthurt. The KDK3 is a license to print money for me. In the same way I used the OP as **** TBR to grind literally enough cbills to buy 72 mechs I can use the KDK3 with a variety of builds to farm cbills relentlessly until it's balanced and then I'll still play it.

Hero mechs that are T1 are cheap as ****. It's always been that way but before PGI worked to keep them balanced. Now they're power creep for cash. You seem to be okay with that, I'm not.

As long as they aren't the only tier 1 option, it doesn't matter. If they truly are best in class, then yes, there is an issue.

But if it ain't, by your own admission, OP, it ain't best in class . If it ain't OP, it can't, by definition be contributing to power creep. Stop making up bogeymen.

You're so blinded by your own agenda, your personal crusade to ensure Heroes aren't worth getting that it's sad.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 June 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

My agenda is game balance. I don't get why that's such a threat to you. Or where you're getting this whole "agenda" thing to begin with like it's a conspiracy or something.

You're good with high power Hero mechs. I'm not, never have been. If you think the SB isn't power creep just because it's not OP then, well, good on you. That it's a hero mech that's able to do what it does as good or better than anything else is fundamentally power creep.

However the only responses you've had are a mix of personal insults and some strange angle of this being "an agenda" like there's this secret cabal trying to ruin the KDK for you because we don't want people to have fun.

Game balance makes for a better game. Cash mechs that are top tier are iffy on the P2W front, especially in a power creep environment (like the KDK). You're happy with it (having bought it and wanting the most advantage for your money) and I'm not. I'm sure you're more likely to buy hero mechs that are better than cbill versions - that's the point.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 11 June 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

My agenda is game balance. I don't get why that's such a threat to you. Or where you're getting this whole "agenda" thing to begin with like it's a conspiracy or something.

You're good with high power Hero mechs. I'm not, never have been. If you think the SB isn't power creep just because it's not OP then, well, good on you. That it's a hero mech that's able to do what it does as good or better than anything else is fundamentally power creep.

However the only responses you've had are a mix of personal insults and some strange angle of this being "an agenda" like there's this secret cabal trying to ruin the KDK for you because we don't want people to have fun.

Game balance makes for a better game. Cash mechs that are top tier are iffy on the P2W front, especially in a power creep environment (like the KDK). You're happy with it (having bought it and wanting the most advantage for your money) and I'm not. I'm sure you're more likely to buy hero mechs that are better than cbill versions - that's the point.

and yet, if it was as good or better than anything else, it WOULD BE OP... because we do have overquirked, OP options out there right now.

KDK3 by your reckoning. AS7-S. Wubshee. Mauler. All far ahead of the SB on the Meta curve. And every day when I drop I see loads more Stalkers, Warhawks and Direwolves than I do do Spirit Bears. Actually seeing more KDK2s and 4s, also. 3s most, but SBs, if they were so much better than everything else, would be better represented. They AREN'T.

That is why I say you are full of it when it comes to your assertion. As for insults, it's because I have become sick of pounding my head against the wall of your agenda which is that Heroes can't be nice, period. That because the Spirit Bear is GOOD, not even GREAT, let alone OP.... it needs to be nerfed...because Heroes have to be average or worse.

Which is nothing but blind bias, not some sacred crusade to stop powercreep. If you actually had a VALID ARGUMENT against the Spirit Bear, I would be open to hearing it. YOU DON'T, you haven't and yet you keep pushing on how it needs to be nerfed.

I ain't keen on current TTK in this game, but the SB ain't the offender in that. KDK3, at least among bads? Sure. AS7-S, MAL, Wubshee, Oxide, Jenny IIs, Blackwidows and WHM-5Ds, Black Knights and Grasshoppers (less now than before, competitively, but still plenty represented in among normal play). All those have demonstrably become poster children for it. The SB, has not. When and if it DOES, then yes, it would need to be nerfed.

Last I checked we don't punish for crimes we think people MIGHT make in the future. But we monitor suspected problems, just in case they do need further measures some day.

THAT is balance.

Not "PreNerf cuz Hero Mech!!!".

The moment you show a post worthy of begin respectful toward on this Topic, I will give it my full attention. You haven't yet.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 June 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Okay, well good luck with that Bishop. Already spoke to all of that, repeatedly, other threads. If you think any of those mechs are "way ahead" of the SB....

Well that answers a lot of questions.

[Mystere]

Sigh! I have come to the conclusion that this constant and never-ending obsession for "balance" is one of the biggest things that has kept PGI from progressing in other still missing features of this game. I mean, some of the so-called "balancing" have already gone full circle now, heck, probably twice over even. <smh>

Imagine, we have 38 pages dedicated to this crap for this single instance alone.

Have a nice weekend, and may MWO finally go the way of the dodo bird.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 11 June 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Sigh! I have come to the conclusion that this constant and never-ending obsession for "balance" is one of the biggest things that has kept PGI from progressing in other still missing features of this game. I mean, some of the so-called "balancing" have already gone full circle now, heck, probably twice over even. <smh>

Imagine, we have 38 pages dedicated to this crap for this single instance alone.

Have a nice weekend, and may MWO finally go the way of the dodo bird.

That's would be because of poor balance Mystere

All 4 people who agree with you cannot support the game



Balance is a requirement, poor balance means poor gameplay (often times stale), which means less players, which means less money
Your preference is part of that Special Snowflake group

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 11 June 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

That's would be because of poor balance Mystere

All 4 people who agree with you cannot support the game

Balance is a requirement, poor balance means poor gameplay (often times stale), which means less players, which means less money
Your preference is part of that Special Snowflake group

Ahem!

Only 4 people who agree with me with what on this thread?

Methinks you missed my point entirely:

• Where are the original 4 pillars again?
  
• How is CW right now?
  
• Where is role warfare?
  
• How is information warfare?
  
• Why has something that is supposed to be a just filler while CW was being made now a major feature?

What has PGI been doing all this time instead of the items I mentioned above, other than telling people to "Buy more Mech packs"?

[MischiefSC]

While those are all legit concerns and the deeper, more interesting game PGI promised us was their position at the time and is now a disposable arena shooter that doesn't mean broken balance is somehow better.