207 replies to this topic

[D V Devnull]

I just realized something, looking at the CPLT resize images... Will my Camo Spec still look reasonably the same, or am I going to be stuck redoing it?

~D. V. "Not wanting my Paint Job to be messed up..." Devnull

[Ade the Rare]

Catapults I CHOOSE YOU!

Edited by AdetheRare, 11 June 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Since this thread has become a "right sized" argument errr I mean discussion, here is the Nova and Dragon re-scale for comparison purposes:

Edited by Rampage, 11 June 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[D V Devnull]

AdetheRare, on 11 June 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

Catapults I CHOOSE YOU!

EXCUSE ME?!?!? That's NOT a ButterBee. That's a ButterFree!

~D. V. "Not looking for Pokemon here!" Devnull

[LegendaryArticuno]

I don't get the hype for the Butterbee... if the Archer has taught us anything, missile mechs are bad.

[Wintersdark]

LegendaryArticuno, on 11 June 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

I don't get the hype for the Butterbee... if the Archer has taught us anything, missile mechs are bad.

... 4SRM6, 4MPL is bad? Really?

The Archer has other issues - primarily shape. It's got those Mad Dog (or rather, the Mad Dog has it's) side torsos, a nice Dragon nose, etc.

Edited by Wintersdark, 11 June 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I'd like to see visuals on how the other mechs have changed

[Dawnstealer]

AngrySpartan, on 10 June 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Found that old picture on the forums, from the days when dual Gauss catapult was a thing. Catapult is supposed to be the most drastic change, so don't expect other 60-65t mechs to be too small

New Cat's ears ends almost where PPC barrels were on the old model.

Hopefully the 'Phract will be a bit smaller, at least.

[Koniving]

Uh, I just thought of something....

The Butterbee is a mech C1 variant carrying 4 Martell medium lasers, but replaces the two Holly LRM-15s with a quartet of unspecified brand SRM-6 missile launchers.

So as beautiful as the image with twin LRM-20s and twin LRM-15s is... o.O;
Anyone wonder why the image introducing the Butterbee has LRMs... and then in the image has only fired 2 out of 70 missiles?

Edit -- it's the way the image was cut, only showing two of the missiles. Seeing the full image there's a lot.
...and they are scattered beautifully.
Or this one...

It's an awesome image, but does this mean that the Inner Sphere will finally have the awesome advantage of streamfired LRMs?

....Or am I just dreaming again?

Because seriously, LRMs have looked like **** ever since the "Recode".
They used to be beautiful...and useful.

So did we get missile awesomeness again or is this image edited for beauty?

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2016 - 01:05 PM.

[Koniving]

AngrySpartan, on 10 June 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Found that old picture on the forums, from the days when dual Gauss catapult was a thing. Catapult is supposed to be the most drastic change, so don't expect other 60-65t mechs to be too small

New Cat's ears ends almost where PPC barrels were on the old model.

Dawnstealer, on 11 June 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Hopefully the 'Phract will be a bit smaller, at least.

On the Cataphract, I hope PGI sees this and considers it. This was a very detailed review into the issues as to why the Cataphracts had become unpopular when they were once very meta, though it focuses mostly on the Cataphract 4x, the weakest link.

Koniving, on 06 May 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

So going more in depth about Cataphracts, lets talk about the 4X.

The CTF-4X has a severely restrictive engine limit, 255. This really hampers its abilities greatly. The mech is ballistic-favoring, the hitbox has a giant center torso with no overlap in hitboxes so it's a very broad, very bold "this is left torso, center torso and right torso" and the center torso is gigantic.

Original box.

Current box.

This makes it incredibly easy to kill especially in the current laser meta. In the missile meta is was pretty solid, in the ballistic meta by moving diagonally the damage from bullets would hit the side torsos or arms when aimed at the CT. Furthermore the screenshake from your own ballistics would make aiming difficult. Today the bullets don't shake much and lasers are great pinpoint weapons. The chassis desperately needs a hitbox redesign, something that helps to 'cross' the boxes akin to an Atlas.

or to a Hunchback IIC


This way there is some chance to spread energy as the Cataphracts are not twist friendly, especially the 4X which is limited to the smaller engines. (Possibly a torso twist speed quirk).

This said, I would like to take a moment to ask people (especially PGI) to look at why the Cataphract 4X starts with such a small engine and why PGI has put the small engine limit on. Consider for a moment that out of the stock builds, the 4X has more armor than every other model of Cataphract including PGI's made-up Illya Muromets. This armor when comparing stock builds surpasses the heavily armored Dragons, surpasses the Thunderbolt which is known for being a tanky mech in Battletech, surpasses the armor of stock builds for Stalkers and some other 80 and 85 ton assault mechs. It carries heavy-weighted firepower and armor rivaling that of assault mechs... at the cost of speed.

But in MWO, everyone can get max armor. The CTF-4X gets the same generic structure quirks as the other Cataphracts but it can't get the same speed. I feel this needs to change in either the engine limit so it can be on par with the other mechs or given armor quirks in addition to structure quirks to put its damage resilience on par with its tabletop counterpart, or barring nothing else some torso twist quirks because even with its max 255 engine it can't twist enough to play the "twist and live" game.

An additional thought, it carries more "ammo bins" than any other Cataphract which makes it 'popular' with the Davions later when ammo types becomes a thing. Barring any help for armor, PGI could have helped us out on increasing ammo per ton as a quirk for this mech (I know the quirk exists) which would allow us to try and use standard engines instead of XL engines, but even then the CT problem still exists.

The other Cataphracts so far (1x, 2x, Muromets are the ones I also own) are in the "slightly below average performance" range, but the 4X, once a king before this quirkathon and laser vomit meta began has only had its cockpit smeared into the dirt when it comes to quirks and hitboxes.

TL;DR: So, it needed an improvement on hitboxes, one that isn't so straight forward as purely vertical left,center,right hitboxes with such a GIGANTICALLY WIDE CENTER. o.o; I'm certain this issue is getting addressed with the rescale.

Still, for the 4X, consider as well the mech's engine limit which has a huge trade off in speed for armor surpassing every other Cataphract variant (More Armor), for ammo bins surpassing most canonical mechs (More Ammo), and heavier weapons which effectively amounted to roughly equal firepower. (So, match 4X's engine limits with the other Cataphracts OR consider quirks that allow it to be on par with its stock tabletop counterpart and rival Cataphract variants, as the 4X trades speed for vastly superior amounts of armor -- not possible by any means other than quirks in MWO due to the way the game was designed-- and superior amounts of ammunition...which quirks could also help with barring nothing else.)
--------------
But since quirks are being reconsidered, then I'd like to repeat as mentioned earlier in the thread, PGI has neglected a very specific aspect of the Quirk design doctrine they described to us, to use quirks to enhance the 'few' and encourage us to choose things with 'less' over 'more'. In this case this mech has few energy hardpoints locked away in the center torso with very little room for options, especially when the canon choice robs us of a hardpoint. Then there is the single missile launcher. So what was quirked, if not the few lasers or the single missile launcher?
....The ballistics. It has 4 damn ballistics! As with many things, PGI quirked the most... and ignored the few.

I still remember the post where it was said that Quirks were going to be used to give players -- at the time Clans -- a reason to choose an Omnipod with a single hardpoint over an Omnipod with three to five hardpoints.

In other words, a reason to carry weapons in the hardpoints we would otherwise neglect since there "isn't enough of them" to work against the double armor/structure+ that MWO has. For example most people using a Cataphract 4X would neglect missiles entirely and often neglect any lasers. Why? It freed more weight for the mech's strengths. So why are all the quirks enhancing the strengths instead of improving the weaknesses? It's got a head missile launcher that could use a quirk to enhance firing cycle speed or to give it some reason, purpose or use for that single hardpoint and single slot; a reason to dedicate weight.

TL;DR: PGI has been quirking the living poo out of every mech's strengths instead of addressing weaknesses; if the Grass Hopper has one head-mounted missile launcher and 8 energy weapons, the 8 energy weapons are the strength and it is up to the player to decide how to best utilize that. The weakness is the missile launcher; nobody carries one because it is so weak. Why no missile buffs? Instead all I see is "Energy, energy, energy, laser." PGI you've buffed the **** out of strengths instead of letting strengths speak for themselves... You ignored weaknesses which only become Even Weaker because they went ignored!!

So if there's ever any wonder why time to kill has gone to heck and why laser vomit has become the most viable meta.... maybe reconsider and replace quirking the most... with quirking the fewest instead as in that original design description for the original purpose of quirks.

I ask of you PGI, please consider this when "Requirkening" our newly rescaled mechs and all the other mechs.

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2016 - 01:45 PM.

[R E T I]

AHHHH Missilenoobia is still strong in PGI. Sad Sad. They get the Kodiak we get another missile boat to go against all ECM clanners IN FP Should of called it the BUMBLEBEE or maybe the BUTTERFLY or hows about HONEYBEE sounds so daunting. I didnt know bees liked butter. Whats our next mech??? TWINKLETOES. GO IS WOOHOO

[AngrySpartan]

RETICENTWARRIOR, on 11 June 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

AHHHH Missilenoobia is still strong in PGI. Sad Sad. They get the Kodiak we get another missile boat to go against all ECM clanners IN FP Should of called it the BUMBLEBEE or maybe the BUTTERFLY or hows about HONEYBEE sounds so daunting. I didnt know bees liked butter. Whats our next mech??? TWINKLETOES. GO IS WOOHOO

Nope, PGI just introduced an excellent brawler: 4 MPL+4SRM6A is no joke and, even being much smaller than the old CAT, it still retains it's structure quirks.

Considering "missilenophobia" - LRMs are close to useless in their current state, so every missile heavy mech is doomed to use SRMs. And on paper Butterbee would be great for that!

Edited by AngrySpartan, 11 June 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[Talos7]

Very nice!
Hope the Mad Dog gets a similar work over, since it is a lighter 60 tons of Short Range Missile boating goodness and stands almost as tall as the Timber Wolf....

[Twilight Fenrir]

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 11 June 2016 - 05:05 PM.

[Chados]

I approve highly. I'll be buying on release day.

[Asmosis]

knightsljx, on 10 June 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

this is bonkers. ignoring the missile box, the CT is SHORTER than a current CICADA. How small are all the mechs going to get???

though bearing in mind PGI is going for a standard volume to weight ratio, the Catapult will probably be one of the shortest Heavies.

maybe it's time to dust off the old Jester again

You can't really ignore something that makes up 1/3 to 1/4 of the mechs volume and height. If the Cicada was waving its arms in the air like it just didn't care as well, then sure.

Edited by Asmosis, 11 June 2016 - 11:33 PM.

[burns]

Considering myself lucky as i´m getting the most out of a splatcat nostalgia run riiight before the queue is flooded with catapults

[D V Devnull]

burns, on 12 June 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

Considering myself lucky as i´m getting the most out of a splatcat nostalgia run riiight before the queue is flooded with catapults

Heh... this might actually run the Heavy Queue to 90%+...

~D. V. "Deciding to tease fate..." Devnull

[MovinTarget]

D V Devnull, on 12 June 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Heh... this might actually run the Heavy Queue to 90%+...

~D. V. "Deciding to tease fate..." Devnull

Good thing there will be phoenix hawks to balance things out...a little...

[D V Devnull]

MovinTarget, on 12 June 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Good thing there will be phoenix hawks to balance things out...a little...

I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder.

~D. V. "Didn't remember the PHX incoming..." Devnull