819 replies to this topic

[chucklesMuch]

BW & MX90 are getting very excited about the prospect of 30 alphas... though wouldn't mind if it was dropped a little more. Oxide & JennerIIC would like to know more about weapons that spread

c-ER-LL hope that they are in consideration for higher alpha heat tolerance, for being a weapon that is unlikely to do their full damage.


re OP I don't know enough details to know whether I think this is a good idea or not.

Would there be a scale of max alpha damage before GH based on class? Or will all mechs have the same limit? (except for LRM/SRM/LBX boats?

Edited by chucklesMuch, 15 June 2016 - 01:51 AM.

[DarthHias]

Well, at least this could be a means of balancing the poor weapons. Just let LBX/MG´s and co not add to the heat scale and they could be nice upgrades for brawlers to increase dps without affecting heat for example. If done right weapon balancing could be done that way.

[Thorn Hallis]

I expect it to be like always. PGI says something wihout any detail, players fill those holes with their own idea and are disappointed if the end result is totally different.

[Karl Streiger]

Thorn Hallis, on 15 June 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

I expect it to be like always. PGI says something wihout any detail, players fill those holes with their own idea and are disappointed if the end result is totally different.

Oh i hope i get disappointed because the imagination is terrible.

Just to point it out: the limit of a energy weapon is heat; the limit of a ammunition based weapon is ammunition.

The original heat (no Ghost Heat) didn't work well to limit heat. 4 PPCs better than 4 AC5s.
But with a power draw / or just a working heat system the energy weapons didn't work in comparison with ammmunition based weapons.

To make it clear: to use a ammunition based weapon should allow you to boost your damage for a brief period (or at least as long as you have ammunition) This concept wasn't working in the original TT but it was ok in S7.

And sorry we don't have a good system for ammunition.... you only have problems with ammunition because of your build. Can't say when i run dry with a ballistic Mech with enough ammunition sometimes it may only happen in CW(??FW/FP??)

Any additional heat limiting system will fiddle again with this concept. (5 AC5s < 30 Alpha... doesn't work) 4 UAC5s < 30 Alpha .... doesn't work. And even while I'm promoting the S7 rules almost to the book because this is much better and more transparent in comparison with Heatscale or PowerDraw - it also doesn't limit ammunition.

[Johnny Z]

Karl Streiger, on 15 June 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

Oh i hope i get disappointed because the imagination is terrible.

Just to point it out: the limit of a energy weapon is heat; the limit of a ammunition based weapon is ammunition.

The original heat (no Ghost Heat) didn't work well to limit heat. 4 PPCs better than 4 AC5s.
But with a power draw / or just a working heat system the energy weapons didn't work in comparison with ammmunition based weapons.

To make it clear: to use a ammunition based weapon should allow you to boost your damage for a brief period (or at least as long as you have ammunition) This concept wasn't working in the original TT but it was ok in S7.

And sorry we don't have a good system for ammunition.... you only have problems with ammunition because of your build. Can't say when i run dry with a ballistic Mech with enough ammunition sometimes it may only happen in CW(??FW/FP??)

Any additional heat limiting system will fiddle again with this concept. (5 AC5s < 30 Alpha... doesn't work) 4 UAC5s < 30 Alpha .... doesn't work. And even while I'm promoting the S7 rules almost to the book because this is much better and more transparent in comparison with Heatscale or PowerDraw - it also doesn't limit ammunition.

Well this does successfully make a point. Energy well/pool or what ever would be a huge task to do. Heat wasn't bad considering it was made for a table top and dice game from the 80's and replacing it will take some serious theory crafting put into practice in the game.

On the bright side, balance in game isn't to bad. Maybe they can do it even better with a system from this millennium.

Has to be said, but what ever heat is replaced with could be used for Aerotech to and make alot more sense. Aerotech being space and high orbit based mostly.


Some have mentioned ballistics not creating heat, or other factors not being important like reloading, which is wrong because in rl they most certainly are and create all sorts of issues.

Reloading for example is the single largest design difference in modern tanks bar none. Unless something has changed recently. Since WWII Germans and Americans have always used a crew loader meanwhile the Russians have opted for auto loader. I'm not sure about the Brits or French or anyone else for that matter but I assume everyone else falls into one of the two camps of design. This major design difference persists to this day as far as I know.

Another example is Navy guns. Even until recently some navies were using "bullet" and "powder" separately and not in a single shell. So bullet, then pack in "powder" after then close breach. This was to reduce weight of massive shells for reloading and actually speed up the process as opposed to all in one more modern seeming "shells". I am not sure if this design decision persists in any today with the small calibers at the moment but it may come into style again with massive calibers, who knows.



Anyway point being, in this fiction universe the game makers can have all sorts of fun trying to create a workable answer to this question, while explaining much using "space magic" reasons.

Edited by Johnny Z, 15 June 2016 - 01:44 AM.

[ice trey]

AnTi90d, on 13 June 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

So, does this community really want an Energy Draw system? Do you guys think it would be good for this game to have a system that prevents players from firing all of their weapons due to some invisible mechanic that has never existed in all of Battletech / Mechwarrior?

There are a number of things that have existed in the Battletech system in order to help to limit power-gamers. For one, the Battle Value system, which doesn't base things on tonnage but a combination of offensive and defensive abilities. The other, is the maintenance/customization systems that have existed since Mechwarrior 2nd edition RPG, which incorporated risk into customizing your mechs, putting everything from parts, time, tech crews' lives, and even the mech itself at risk. However try to incorporate either one of these into the game and I'm pretty sure everyone but those BattleTech fans worth their salt would be crying bloody murder.

...So in the end, power draw wouldn't be a huge concern in my books. Nowhere near as big a sin as still having coolant flush consumables.

Edited by ice trey, 15 June 2016 - 01:16 AM.

[MW222]

Cathy, on 14 June 2016 - 01:08 AM, said:

Its a different form of ghost heat called energy draw, and as usual with P.G.I it's over complex and will probably fail to achieve what it's out to do, though I don't remember P.G.I actually telling us what its supposed to do, other than be a replacement for ghost heat.

Far far simpler and effective idea's have been suggested by the community.

lowering the heat threshold and increasing dissipation being a really really basic one, but why P.G.I won't do this one, I have no idea why.

My best guess is that Alphanoob, will keep blowing up his mech and leave the game, where the reality is that people are leaving because its alpha this alpha that,

Of course P.G.I know what's best for us, which is why the Steam numbers shrink month after month, and the old guard are leaving in a slow trickle, because well.

P.G.I know best ?

Cathy hit's it right on the head.

[Lily from animove]

No, because heat is more or less the same intended feature just PGI has chosen the value wrong, now if they make "power draw" they basically add just another ressource into this system because the original ressource values were chosen badly.

[mogs01gt]

dervishx5, on 14 June 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

The gauss thing is false. If it's in a novel it's just there for flair. There is no rule regarding this at all.
But the speed thing is true. Moving generated heat.

Im talking about Lore/Novels. I dont care about TT rules.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I just think that the more variety in weapon system types you have on your mech, the higher your unpunished alpha should be. If you've got to aim 2 different ballistics, SRMs and lasers during an alpha strike, you should be able to do more damage without a heat spike than someone who's just firing lasers.

[DAYLEET]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

What happened to balance?

Well, while we don't know if ballistic are getting further balanced with Energy Draw or not they are already balanced regardless of people boating srm/lasers or not. ED wont indirectly buff ACs.

Ballistic at least requires some times to get used to, They each have different stats that make their use different, they are super heavy, they require ammo, the ammo weight a ton each and can blow in your face and some have serious range and heat limitation already.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

ED wont indirectly buff ACs.

Until we know whether ballistics are included in the energy draw system with equal representation as energy, you can't say that for sure. A direct nerf to energy is an indirect buff to ballistics.

[Just Another Bad Robot Game]

TheLuc, on 14 June 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

What a waste of resources, player retention is what is needed, PvE, solo and coop missions against an AI that will bring in players. Keeping this game PVP only just kills it.

That would be the worst idea. It was tried in Armored Warfare and what happened was long queue times for PvP because everyone was off grinding for new tanks in PvE

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Until we know whether ballistics are included in the energy draw system with equal representation as energy, you can't say that for sure. A direct nerf to energy is an indirect buff to ballistics.

We know that ballistic boating isnt a problem right now. That alone is a good indication that a slight nerf on other boating isnt going to buff it. You can expect a certain playerbase to have a kneejerk reaction when their big end of the stick gets shaved but what are they gona do? The only ballistic loadout worth mentioning is dual gauss with ppcs/lpl and thats not boating.

I think it's healthy for a game to shake things up even if it just shift meta. At least once a year but id like a good balance pass every 6 months, keep the game interesting.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ballistics are already "meta". They are effected by energy draw, but to since they don't need to do more than 20-25 damage

[Pjwned]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 07:14 PM, said:

Where exactly was this explained, because the is unnecessary data for HSR to keep track of? Or is this just an assumption?

How is it unnecessary? As far as I understand it that's what HSR needs to do already, and I don't understand how it would accomplish anything worth a damn otherwise, so feel free to explain what HSR does currently if not that.

Quote

I understand that.......the point is, that if the time you lock a target is desynced from the time you fire, there would be a problem, not sure whether this would be an issue, but depends on how the netcode handles that (of which we know little of).

Then don't leave every little thing server authoritative if that would somehow be a problem.

Quote

Since all of those are hitscan, yes, they would be affected just like lasers.

Well I'm not going to get too hung up on the issue of how MGs & flamers would be affected because it would be such a minor effect for both weapons; like I said they would presumably just be left alone if it was actually a problem.

Quote

Vector computations aren't necessarily cheap when you are talking milliseconds.

Still not very convincing, and considering the huge potential benefit of having a reasonable convergence system I would honestly only care if it made the network traffic unplayably bad.

[meteorol]

You will never find out by asking on this forum.

[Just Another Bad Robot Game]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

We know that ballistic boating isnt a problem right now. That alone is a good indication that a slight nerf on other boating isnt going to buff it. You can expect a certain playerbase to have a kneejerk reaction when their big end of the stick gets shaved but what are they gona do? The only ballistic loadout worth mentioning is dual gauss with ppcs/lpl and thats not boating.

I think it's healthy for a game to shake things up even if it just shift meta. At least once a year but id like a good balance pass every 6 months, keep the game interesting.

4x ac5 black widow is easy and versatile, absolutely shreds things from facehug range until well past large pulse optimal. Don't know why you'd ignore obvious things like that unless you're clueless, or because it doesn't fit the point you're trying to make

Edited by Just Another Bad Robot Game, 15 June 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[DAYLEET]

Just Another Bad Robot Game, on 15 June 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

4x ac5 black widow is easy and versatile, absolutely shreds things from facehug range until well past large pulse optimal. Don't know why you'd ignore obvious things like that unless you're clueless, or because it doesn't fit the point you're trying to make

4 AC5 have always been nice, nothing has changed about them and still suffer from the same deficiencies all ballistic shares. What do you fight at facehug range with them exactly? walls? awesomes?

[Johnny Z]

Just Another Bad Robot Game, on 15 June 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

4x ac5 black widow is easy and versatile, absolutely shreds things from facehug range until well past large pulse optimal. Don't know why you'd ignore obvious things like that unless you're clueless, or because it doesn't fit the point you're trying to make

The 4x ac 5 isn't the problem with a 20 alpha. Its the 72 alpha or what ever that's the problem and ghost heat isn't working.

The 20 point alpha requires face time and higher accuracy and even has ammo explosion vulnerability.

The 72 alpha is stupid if 3 or 4 players are packing that, so is the 20 alpha but not even close to the same stupid.

Energy well or pool or what ever wont ruin all load outs I am guessing but will put a hard cap on the stupid alphas I am guessing.

Maybe everyone including me have been over thinking this. A few have mentioned a 30 point damage cap, maybe its 35 or 40 and nothing else changes at all. I don't know but maybe its as simple as that.(thinking about it I bet its capped at 40, DoT same as dual ac 20, results max damage in the game, period. How that translates to mech weight I have no idea at all)

If its more complicated than that it will most likely be effecting mech speed and maneuver.

Edited by Johnny Z, 15 June 2016 - 10:02 AM.