819 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

Hotthedd, on 09 August 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Yes, you are absolutely correct.

I was just underscoring that taking them out of the game altogether, although it would fix the TTK problem, is also just as much against the BT universe.

I'm just going to leave these here:

[Appogee]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Who exactly is this CoD crowd you refer to,

The guys who complain about the gauss charge-up mechanic, who cried so hard about InfoTech that they got it shut down, that are calling out for an infinite respawn mode, that decry every proposed aspect of the game that requires more thought than placing a cursor on a target and clicking.

There are tons of them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

I see no one here saying that this game should be more like CoD

Of course they don't describe it that way. But that's their frame of reference. They want MWO to be the point and click bog standard FSPer they are used to, instead of something more simulator like or true to BT.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

it seems awfully presumptive to think that just because someone thinks that alpha strikes should be a thing

Who is being presumptive now? I want alpha strikes - they are an integral part of BT.

But free, crazy-high-alpha strikes which you can make frequently - instead of as a high risk "last resort" kind of strategy - that's not BattleTech.

Energy Draw has the potential to make alpha strike a thoughtful choice instead of a default behavior.

[dervishx5]

Uh, I'd like an infinite respawn mode. The last CoD I played was that dumb one where you wake up in Pearl Harbor and have to shoot torpedoes coming at your battleship with a Thompson. I think that was like 2003.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

There is no COD crowd here. Just people who want more than a zerg rush DPS race out of this game.

Nonsense. People who want to sit back in min/maxed Mechs firing huge alphas repeatedly with pinpoint accuracy and barely any penalty are a big part of the problem with the game. They make TTK low, they encourage the cowardice of those hiding behind rocks too scared to peek out or manoevre.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

The guys who complain about the gauss charge-up mechanic, who cried so hard about InfoTech that they got it shut down, that are calling out for an infinite respawn mode, that decry every proposed aspect of the game that requires more thought than placing a cursor on a target and clicking.

There are tons of them.

Of course they don't describe it that way. But that's their frame of reference. They want MWO to be the point and click bog standard FSPer they are used to, instead of something more simulator like or true to BT.



Who is being presumptive now? I want alpha strikes - they are an integral part of BT.

But free, crazy-high-alpha strikes which you can make frequently - instead of as a high risk "last resort" kind of strategy - that's not BattleTech.

Energy Draw has the potential to make alpha strike a thoughtful choice instead of a default behavior.

Lets have a game true to MechWarrior. How about that?

Placing cursor on target and clicking is the smallest part of the game, the fact that you would say that is all this game is is laughable.

Alphas aren't free, they cost 40+ heat, and typically you only get a couple before you are pushing heat limits.

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Nonsense. People who want to sit back in min/maxed Mechs firing huge alphas repeatedly with pinpoint accuracy and barely any penalty are a big part of the problem with the game. They make TTK low, they encourage the cowardice of those hiding behind rocks too scared to peek out or manoevre.

"Repeatedly".

Twice hardly qualifies repeatedly. The people who are scared to peek out or maneuver are the ones who aren't smart enough to figure out where to maneuver and peek out, or allowed themselves to get into a position where there is no option. All of those are player issues, not an issue with "repeated" alphas.

[dervishx5]

If you want a game true to the original Mechwarriors, remove the mouse.

Yeah, you could use them in the other games, but they weren't nearly as easy to use.

Oh what, you don't want to do that? Well yeah, because realism is appealing to less people than arcade is. Game Design 101.

And if you do want to remove the mouse, well, realism is less appealing than arcade style. Game Design 101.

Sorry people, you live on a planet that appeals to the masses because it's the logical way to be the most profitable.

#fantasyshaming

Edited by dervishx5, 09 August 2016 - 10:52 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

The guys who complain about the gauss charge-up mechanic, who cried so hard about InfoTech that they got it shut down, that are calling out for an infinite respawn mode, that decry every proposed aspect of the game that requires more thought than placing a cursor on a target and clicking.

There are tons of them.

First, there were a multitude of reasons "infoTech" got shutdown, one of which is because PGI thought the rage was about all of it rather than just the ghost range portion.
Second, this game is a bit more than point and click, otherwise we would see more players using PPCs accurately (which btw are meta currently).

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Of course they don't describe it that way. But that's their frame of reference. They want MWO to be the point and click bog standard FSPer they are used to, instead of something more simulator like or true to BT.

Not all FPS are equal, there are a lot of CS players around here, and CS is not equal to CoD. Now it would be true to say that many players do not care for the level of simulation that some people in the forums push for.

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

Who is being presumptive now? I want alpha strikes - they are an integral part of BT.

But free, crazy-high-alpha strikes which you can make frequently - instead of as a high risk "last resort" kind of strategy

Energy Draw has the potential to make alpha strike a thoughtful choice instead of a default behavior.

It also has the potential to break diversity of strategies, alphas are what keep DPS-oriented builds/strats in line. There is a balance that needs to be achieved and energy draw has a stronger potential to upset it rather than fix it.

As Gas points out, alphas aren't free either.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Placing cursor on target and clicking is the smallest part of the game, the fact that you would say that is all this game is is laughable.

I'm not sure what you think you are responding to. I said the game shouldn't be dumbed down to being just about putting a cursor on a target and clicking.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Alphas aren't free, they cost 40+ heat, and typically you only get a couple before you are pushing heat limits.

"Only a couple"...?! You clearly don't know Mechwarrior.

And the problem is that it's not "only a couple". It's huge high alpha Whales and Kodiaks sitting at the back fora whole match, firing a huge alpha every 30 seconds, wrecking barely-damaged Mechs from 600m away, repeatedly.

That's not Mechwarrior... Not any previous version of the title, not TT, and not even the BattleTech fiction.

Edited by Appogee, 09 August 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[dervishx5]

Dude did you play Mechwarrior 4? This is nothing compared to that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

That's not Mechwarrior... Not any previous version of the title, not TT, and not even the BattleTech fiction.

Have you ever played against Gauss walls before in TT? Even in TT having some mech spit out large amounts of damage at range is a thing, and previous Mechwarriors were actually worse about that as Derv points out.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 August 2016 - 10:58 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

I have no idea what you think you are responding to. I said the game shouldn't be dumbed down to being just about putting a cursor on a target and clicking.

"Only a couple"...?! You clearly don't know Mechwarrior.

And the problem is that it's not "only a couple". It's huge high alpha Whales and Kodiaks sitting at the back fora whole match, firing a huge alpha every 30 seconds, wrecking barely-damaged Mechs from 600m away, repeatedly.

That's not Mechwarrior... Not any previous version of the title, not TT, and not even the BattleTech fiction.

Huge alpha every 30 seconds??? After enduring one alpha I could apply 360 damage in a Black Widow prior to the second alpha. (12 DPS over 30 seconds LMAO)

Sure it is, I have played other MechWarriors and easily dealt a couple 50 damage alphas, no problem. 2 ER PPCs and 2 Gauss is an easy alpha in any MechWarrior game.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 August 2016 - 10:59 AM.

[Appogee]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

It also has the potential to break diversity of strategies,

No, it will create opportunities for more fluid movement and more strategy. It will make the game less prone to "one positioning mistake now you're dead" and more "I'm fighting in a huge highly armored war machine that can take some punihsment".

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

alphas are what keep DPS-oriented builds/strats in line.

Range could keep DPS in line. High manoeverability could keep DPS in line.

Repeated high alphas are for lazy, high-tonnage camping, kill farming, and the kind of insta-gibbing COD players are so fond of.

Energy Draw has the potential to require more flexible multi-dimensional loadouts, more freedom to move around, and will require us all to rethink our MWO builds and strategies.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Phelan Ward's Executioner had no problem firing 3 cLPLs and 4 cERMLs in Grave Covenant, not that what happens in the books should have ANY bearing whatsoever in MechWarrior games (where by the way, alpha strikes have always been in thing)

Mechwarrior games have been primarily single player games designed for single player balance, not multiplayer.

Alpha strikes like we have have NEVER been a part of battletech. Firing all your weapons in a turn just meant for g everything inside a 10s window. That's not even remotely close to an MWO pinpoint alpha.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Repeated high alphas are for lazy, high-tonnage camping, kill farming, and the kind of insta-gibbing COD players are so fond of.

Energy Draw has the potential to require more flexible multi-dimensional loadouts, more freedom to move around, and will require us all to rethink our MWO builds and strategies.

Insta-gibs are a rarity. Maneuverability keeps alphas in line as well.

No re-thinking of strategies required. Just take the competitive alpha builds out and stick with the competitive DPS builds that you are already using.

Wintersdark, on 09 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Mechwarrior games have been primarily single player games designed for single player balance, not multiplayer.

Alpha strikes like we have have NEVER been a part of battletech. Firing all your weapons in a turn just meant for g everything inside a 10s window. That's not even remotely close to an MWO pinpoint alpha.

Let's compare MechWarrior to other MechWarrior game shall we?

The TT references will apply more to the BattleTech game next year.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Huge alpha every 30 seconds??? After enduring one alpha I could apply 360 damage in a Black Widow prior to the second alpha. (12 DPS over 30 seconds LMAO)

Yeah if you are stupid enough to try to face tank for that long, and good enough to land all those shots on the right components, and your opponent is stupid enough to stand there in the open not torso twisting.

Maybe ComStar will drop armored unicorns for you, too.

What you described is part of the trade off. Instead of just hiding behind a rock, popping out and doing 80 damage, popping back in to cool off, and then inst-gibbing the next sucker.

[dervishx5]

Wintersdark, on 09 August 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Mechwarrior games have been primarily single player games designed for single player balance, not multiplayer.

Alpha strikes like we have have NEVER been a part of battletech. Firing all your weapons in a turn just meant for g everything inside a 10s window. That's not even remotely close to an MWO pinpoint alpha.

Yeah, I get where you're going with this. Battletech is more or less an interpretation of how things go (1 brand of AC20 works differently from another, etc). But that doesn't mean that two or more weapons couldn't be fired at once. There's an equal case of weapons being Mechwarrior-styled Alphas as the one you're proposing.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 09 August 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yeah if you are stupid enough to try to face tank for that long, and good enough to land all those shots on the right components, and your opponent is stupid enough to stand there in the open not torso twisting.

Maybe ComStar will drop armored unicorns for you, too.

What you described is part of the trade off. Instead of just hiding behind a rock, popping out and doing 80 damage, popping back in to cool off, and then inst-gibbing the next sucker.

The point is 30 seconds is an absurdly long amount of time between alphas. If you are gifted enough to hang back 800 m away and not be pressured at all, then the other team is failing hard. You can't say farming baby seals with a dual gauss dual ER PPC Kodiak means we have an alpha strike problem, because that is about as representative of this game as me shooting at somebody for 30 seconds straight without trying to get to cover or even spread damage.

[Appogee]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Dude did you play Mechwarrior 4? This is nothing compared to that.

Of course I did. Every single one of them.

And yet, MWO seems to have the lowest TTK of any of them. And that TTK has been getting lower and lower since the day the first BoomJager appeared on the battlefield, culminating in the huge alpha Kodiaks and Dire Stars we see today. Hell, we even had a 6ERPPC Stalker for a while there.

Alphas are too high, and they are a handbrake on the game. Lower alphas, via a mechanic which will at least be more diverse and less one-dimensional than ghost heat, will be a step in the right direction.

[Gas Guzzler]

I have definitely taken a heavy mech from green to flashing red CT in one shot in MW4. If my mouse actually worked properly with MW4 I think TTK would be even lower. Hell, you can alpha 9 ER MLs and a Gauss, on a Hellbringer, with no penalties. Lol.

[Wintersdark]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

Yeah, I get where you're going with this. Battletech is more or less an interpretation of how things go (1 brand of AC20 works differently from another, etc). But that doesn't mean that two or more weapons couldn't be fired at once. There's an equal case of weapons being Mechwarrior-styled Alphas as the one you're proposing.

It's not the timing that I'm concerned with.

Even if those weapons are fired at the same time, they're hitting random locations.

MWO, baring edge cases they're all hitting the exact same point.

Timing works, as there's so much resistance to situational CoF.