819 replies to this topic

[Just Another Bad Robot Game]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

4 AC5 have always been nice, nothing has changed about them and still suffer from the same deficiencies all ballistic shares. What do you fight at facehug range with them exactly? walls? awesomes?

Perhaps that's your issue and not that of the loadout

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

We know that ballistic boating isnt a problem right now.

Says you, I mean, ballistic boating isn't a problem, but neither are lasers.

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

The only ballistic loadout worth mentioning is dual gauss with ppcs/lpl and thats not boating.

All the threads complaining about the Quad 10 Kodiak 3 suggest that isn't the case, even if it isn't the strongest in comp (where ballistic boats find more use), that's not quite the point. There were more Kodiak 3 threads than there ever were for the Black Knight which is probably one of the strongest mid range laser boats.

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

I think it's healthy for a game to shake things up even if it just shift meta. At least once a year but id like a good balance pass every 6 months, keep the game interesting.

No, shifting the meta is BAD, what the goal SHOULD be is expanding the meta, which actually happened after the rebalance, even if it wasn't perfect. This large of a change however would most likely just shift the meta heavily towards ballistics rather than keeping them balanced, that is, if ballistics aren't equally represented in power draw.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 15 June 2016 - 10:01 AM.

[DAYLEET]

Just Another Bad Robot Game, on 15 June 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

Perhaps that's your issue and not that of the loadout

I have no issue with people with 4 ac5. none.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Says you, I mean, ballistic boating isn't a problem, but neither are lasers.

Energy and Srm boating is out of control. It's both the easiest way to play and most effective.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

All the threads complaining about the Quad 10 Kodiak 3 suggest that isn't the case, even if it isn't the strongest in comp (where ballistic boats find more use), that's not quite the point. There were more Kodiak 3 threads than there ever were for the Black Knight which is probably one of the strongest mid range laser boats.

Theres still complaining about lrm op. UAC10, It's got meh range, its got meh velocity+slow double shot, it takes half a second+ for both volley(6shells) to be in the air, it spreads and it can't be aimed once the shots are fired, im not impressed. It shares the scary effect of lrm which is why you get people making threads. Even SRMS have less negative points than clan ballistics and are more accurate as a whole.

I can see why people drive a k3, it certainly can be fun and different and we will see a lot of them, like the dire the first 4months. It's never going away either because the choices for clan assault are pretty limited.

I still dont know why anyone would take a BK over a Grasshopper outside of quickplay.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

No, shifting the meta is BAD, what the goal SHOULD be is expanding the meta, which actually happened after the rebalance, even if it wasn't perfect. This large of a change however would most likely just shift the meta heavily towards ballistics rather than keeping them balanced, that is, if ballistics aren't equally represented in power draw.

We shall see. Also, we cant just expand meta since the main goal of this thing is to lower the maximum alpha.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Energy and Srm boating is out of control. It's both the easiest way to play and most effective.

Are we talking PUG queue? Because Dakka Kodiaks and PPC/Dakka Warhammers can wreck in PUG queue faster than most, and SRMs require teams to be coordinated to be dominant outside of lights.

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I still dont know why anyone would take a BK over a Grasshopper outside of quickplay.

Because the Grasshopper is all CT and doesn't have the perfect set of quirks the BK does, the only reason to use a Grasshopper is on maps where JJs are pretty important (Crayon Network for example) or where terrain is constantly an issue (Caustic mostly).

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

We shall see. Also, we cant just expand meta since the main goal of this thing is to lower the maximum alpha.

So what level of alpha is acceptable then? The highest meta alpha that I'm aware of is either the BK at 58 or the Quad 10 Kodiak at 80, outside of brawlers which are less of a problem except in maybe group queue.

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

So what level of alpha is acceptable then? The highest meta alpha that I'm aware of is either the BK at 58 or the Quad 10 Kodiak at 80, outside of brawlers which are less of a problem except in maybe group queue.

Ask Russ, me i would have weight class have different alpha potential like 20/30/40/50, the heat penalty would be severe if exceeded, all weapon of the same type share the same cooldown so you cant pace yourself with 2 weapon group of the same thing, you either play smart or go all in for the kill shot because Alpha should be a gamble not how you build your mech. All mech would lose their weapon quirks, mechs with only 1 hardpoint would be deleted from the game. Id build a wall at the Clan territory and i would make them pay for it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Ask Russ, me i would have weight class have different alpha potential like 20/30/40/50

Yeah, this wouldn't work, just saying that now. My Gauss/PPC Kodiak and Timby would be free and clear, yet the laser boats (half of the lights) would be nerfed, when lights currently have trouble doing meaningful damage, that would not make sense.

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Yeah, this wouldn't work, just saying that now. My Gauss/PPC Kodiak and Timby would be free and clear, yet the laser boats (half of the lights) would be nerfed, when lights currently have trouble doing meaningful damage, that would not make sense.

I rarely play Heavies, i mostly stays with meds then lights then assault sometimes. While im not spectacular in lighta Im perfectly fine with your heavy/assault doing more damage per alpha than my light. There has been easy mode light allowed to exist for too long like the cheatah and oxide, spoiling everyone, thinking they are light pilots.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

There has been easy mode light allowed to exist for too long like the cheatah and oxide, spoiling everyone, thinking they are light pilots.

I guess you think lights are only meant to scout or something, rather than actually be able to contribute to damage then? Because those lights (though the Cheetah is mostly subpar compared to the Jenny IIC these days) are practically the only thing capable of doing that. You may be fine with bigger mechs having higher alphas, but I'm not because lights even currently are not dangerous without that damage output.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 15 June 2016 - 01:51 PM.

[Pjwned]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

I rarely play Heavies, i mostly stays with meds then lights then assault sometimes. While im not spectacular in lighta Im perfectly fine with your heavy/assault doing more damage per alpha than my light. There has been easy mode light allowed to exist for too long like the cheatah and oxide, spoiling everyone, thinking they are light pilots.

So the answer is to put arbitrary, inconsistent extra penalties on lights because people are butthurt that lights are somewhat of a threat? Especially when the proposed "penalties" for heavier mechs wouldn't even matter that is just dumb garbage.

So how about no. If we're dealing with lame, halfassed, uninspired band aid fixes (i.e ghost heat 2.0) instead of addressing the real issues then it at least needs to be applied fairly and consistently.

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

I guess you think lights are only meant to scout or something, rather than actually be able to contribute to damage then? Because those lights (though the Cheetah is mostly subpar compared to the Jenny IIC these days) are practically the only thing capable of doing that. You may be fine with bigger mechs having higher alphas, but I'm not because lights even currently are not dangerous without that damage output.

Lights were always strong in good hands.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

Lights were always strong in good hands.

On average, even in good hands, heavies and assaults are stronger than that.

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

On average, even in good hands, heavies and assaults are stronger than that.

lol? Assault have more firepower and more armor, is your answer to that to add more firepower for lights? Do you want to normalise all mech? all the same firepower, the same agility the same armor yay! bland game! they don't do the same thing on the battlefield, they dont have the same role but the line between them is bluring. If you think heavies and assault got too much powercreep for the rest of the battlemech then fine lets not increase the powercreep with quirks and higher firepower but rather fix the problem.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

lol? Assault have more firepower and more armor, is your answer to that to add more firepower for lights? Do you want to normalise all mech? all the same firepower, the same agility the same armor yay! bland game! they don't do the same thing on the battlefield, they dont have the same role but the line between them is bluring.

Nice strawman, you know they can have similar firepower, but different effective ranges right (or sustained DPS), kinda like they do now? The kiss-of-death Jenner IIC currently has more firepower than an AS7-S but cannot stay in the fight near as long nor does it have the same effective range. The fact is, if they had less firepower than they do now, they would be the worst class by far, rather than just a bit off like they are now.

[J0anna]

Yes and No. I'm not a big believer that TTK is too low. My biggest fears over this system is well, PGI. I think they just don't "get" battletech. Maybe they remember playing MechWarrior 2, 3 or whatever. But there's so much more they are missing. For example, you can create the biggest most beautiful map ever, but only a small portion of it will ever be used since the majority of battlemech weapons are line of sight weapons...

So lets say you create this perfect system that limits alpha's to 30 points of damage, and you fit 5 Ml's on it for 30 points of damage...Does your 10% damage boost kick you over the threshold? What happens if I put a module on it, does that count against me? Does the fact that the IS can set up ML's to exactly reach a 30 point alpha, while the clans have to reach 28 lead us to imply that each group might have a different limit.

And so we implement "Ghost heat 2.0" as I suspect it will wind up being called, and we go through the trouble of evaluating and (most likely) changing the quirks on EVERY mech, to implement another system, rather than just adapting the heat scale from TT to work in a online shooter...For what exactly? All this when we could be working on gameplay or making the battles mean something, or bringing lore into the game. These areas receive little if any attention.

This game could be SO MUCH MORE than it is. Imagine this. The clan team drops on a large map with the orders to 1) secure a bridge 2) advance to a mag rail station and 3) take and hold it. The IS team drops with orders to 1) Hold the bridge 2) failing that hold the town and failing that 3) hold the mag rail station

Make the bridge destructible, the IS can destroy it, but lose exp and cbills if there are no clanners on it, the clanners have multiple ways of crossing the river, but the bridge is the most direct, you could set up the victory conditions such that different objectives have different values (decisive victory, marginal victory). And on and on, there is really so much more that CW could be, but I fell PGI either lacks the will or the imagination to pull it off...

So ghost heat 2.0, we all know that PGI will ram this down our throats and tell us it's the best thing since sliced bread. As for me, I decide whether I pull the trigger on the huntsman or not depending on what happens with this...

[Ryllen Kriel]

Let's just force all energy weapons to work on solar panel technology! One alpha per one week of charging! Let's burn the world by going green with clean, renewable energy and medium lasers...go Cpt. Planet!

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Nice strawman, you know they can have similar firepower, but different effective ranges right (or sustained DPS), kinda like they do now? The kiss-of-death Jenner IIC currently has more firepower than an AS7-S but cannot stay in the fight near as long nor does it have the same effective range. The fact is, if they had less firepower than they do now, they would be the worst class by far, rather than just a bit off like they are now.

Not a strawman argument, the lights can use the same weapons than the assault to an extent so they have the same range. They have less armor but can more easily fire from cover to cover or backstab, break the enemy line, expose the entire enemy team, secure kills, perimeter defense etc etc. Lights had less firepower than they do now and managed just fine. You want to powercreep damage in and normalise mech using damage. Lights manage just fine before so what has changed? Damage is only one stats, stop focusing on it for lights, a light can have half as much damage than an assault and still be more of an asset to the team than the assault.

[shopsmart]

The players are responsible for creating the meta as is. Lasers are way over done. But create a game where turning your torso to absorb damage seems a little rediculous (from a TT perspective). Longer burn times and cool down might be a simple approach. Or convergence, but that is a dead horse. Would definitely start to simulate how ballistics work by having to keep face time. But the energy draw system I would like to a degree. I use to play armored core and that game used a engine/thrust for energy. So bring it on PGI.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

the lights can use the same weapons than the assault to an extent so they have the same range.

No they can't, expecting to use any ballistic with relative firepower of an assault is absolutely not possible on lights, you boat energy or missile weapons to give you similar firepower, but often at the cost of heat efficiency (sustained DPS) or range.

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Lights had less firepower than they do now and managed just fine.

The only time that was the case was during the days of the Streak Raven, the Ember had quite a bit of firepower before they nerfed MGs and introduced power creep.

DAYLEET, on 15 June 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

a light can have half as much damage than an assault and still be more of an asset to the team than the assault.

Sorry, but no, not when we are talking more than one light unless that damage was mainly to rear torsos and not the front. Unfortunately with the nerf to the RVN-4X's range, they really only can backstab (splat Jenners and SPL Cheetah/Jenner IIC) or flank (ERML Jenner IIC/Spider), with one most likely being the scout (Cheetah or Spider). They aren't near the priority of the Kodiak or Mauler, especially if they have their firepower nerfed.

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

The only time that was the case was during the days of the Streak Raven

Then i guess we will never agree.

[MW222]

Let's just hope they will pull it if they screw the pooch or trip over Lamp Posts again.

Post patch, pooch screwed royally!

Chrome and pin striping, just like I said.

Edited by MW222, 21 June 2016 - 11:29 AM.