425 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 15 June 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

Why is this relevant? Because that way, it doesn't punish pushes. When you're pushing into brawl range, a couple degrees of CoF doesn't matter. You're close, so it doesn't have time to spread much at all.

This is somewhat false, pushes often have a couple mid range mechs that can do damage without being at brawl range, whether it be the good ol BK, or the dakka hammer that push with the group they are great suppression and openers for the brawlers.

This also include mid range pushes, not full out brawl rushes as well, you aren't always pushing to get within brawl range, you can also push to shove enemies off important terrain.

[Tombstoner]

My god Bishop you are some sort of masakist. Serously how can you keep doing this.... I know ... its hard to see a beloved IP being so close to greatness but face planting.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 15 June 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

This is somewhat false, pushes often have a couple mid range mechs that can do damage without being at brawl range, whether it be the good ol BK, or the dakka hammer that push with the group they are great suppression and openers for the brawlers.

This also include mid range pushes, not full out brawl rushes as well, you aren't always pushing to get within brawl range, you can also push to shove enemies off important terrain.

Dat Black Widow.

One of the most underrated heavies in the game. Reasonably tanky, fast, plenty of ammo, good mount positions. I'll run it on cold maps instead of an energy boat because a 600m ac20 with ~1 second cooldown is never not funny.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rampage, on 15 June 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I am sorry, I was at the beach all day and I am just getting back to read this. I do not understand how you are going to overcome the randomness of CoF with skill. If your inaccuracy is going to be determined by a RNG then overcoming it is simply going to be by luck ie missing your shot by exactly the amount that the RNG tried to make your shot miss your target and thus scoring a perfect hit. Am I wrong about this?

However, if you make the reticle bounce with the Mech as it moves then you can potentially make adjustments to your shot based on the rhythm of the Mech's gait and still have a chance to land your shot on target intitially. However, the gait would cause your lasers to trace a path as the reticle moved or the uAC to land its second shot in a different location. That, to me, is skill overcoming(at least partially) adverse conditions.

While I understand the desire to add a computer simulated dice role to accuracy from the TT perspective, I have always played MechWarrior as a Mech simulator so adding number generated random inaccuracy in targeting to the game just feels wrong to me unless it is tied to an environmental element such as uneven terrain, wind or the movement of the Mech.

explained, over and over again in the preceding 13 pages. If you don't find the answer there, well, ''m done trying to explain it. But sway and CoF mechanics absolutely are mitigatable, and that is indeed a skill of it's own, and it would indeed reduce RoF, and pinpoint accuracy of focus fire without removing skill from the game, and thus fix a whole lot of nonsense.

But I'm just tired of the bickering, and getting post after post from 1453r, a guy I actually do liek and respect, but who is so biased at the thought of CoF that his posts are exaggerated to a degree that would make Trump blush.

I'm just done.

Can't wait till the double armor again or halve damage to try to fix out of control TTK when power draw fails miserably. It'll finally be what I've been needing to cut the cord form this game completely.

My opinion on the matter can be found in McGral18s signature, which funnily enough I think was paraphrased from one of my conversations with Koniving.

[Cy Mitchell]

^^^^^On many things we agree. On this one we do not. But damnit, now I have to go find a McGral18 post to read his signature....Pffffft!

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 June 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

explained, over and over again in the preceding 13 pages. If you don't find the answer there, well, ''m done trying to explain it. But sway and CoF mechanics absolutely are mitigatable, and that is indeed a skill of it's own, and it would indeed reduce RoF, and pinpoint accuracy of focus fire without removing skill from the game, and thus fix a whole lot of nonsense.

But I'm just tired of the bickering, and getting post after post from 1453r, a guy I actually do liek and respect, but who is so biased at the thought of CoF that his posts are exaggerated to a degree that would make Trump blush.

I'm just done.

Can't wait till the double armor again or halve damage to try to fix out of control TTK when power draw fails miserably. It'll finally be what I've been needing to cut the cord form this game completely.

My opinion on the matter can be found in McGral18s signature, which funnily enough I think was paraphrased from one of my conversations with Koniving.

I'm willing to see how power draw works before I hate it.

No reason to hate it early. Maybe it'll be like IW and surprisingly good.

I'm already ready to cut the mwo cord if there's no real fixes to fw. This is just a frosting thing.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 15 June 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

I'm willing to see how power draw works before I hate it.

No reason to hate it early. Maybe it'll be like IW and surprisingly good.

I'm already ready to cut the mwo cord if there's no real fixes to fw. This is just a frosting thing.

if it's anything like IW, then people will QQ til it's removed anyhow. Anything that adds immersion and depth and something beside click a pixel spamming is not wanted by this game community.

I'm seriously thinking about just going full over to WoWS until HBS sends out Beta invites.

Despite "balance" being relatively better than at most times in MWOs history, I've oddly never found it more stale and unenjoyable. Played my Bears for a week... and literally haven't played since. Was maybe a dozen matches in the month before that. Same the month before that. The staleness of gameplay, the abject idiocy level of alpha strikes, and ease of focus fire, the are-tard level quirks are having to be pumped to counter it....

It's crap.

Yet people absolutely refuse to address the actual genesis of the problem and instead we slap on bandaids to make it stagger on to halfass sacrifice at the alter of Esports.

I surrender.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 June 2016 - 07:32 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Rampage, on 15 June 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I am sorry, I was at the beach all day and I am just getting back to read this. I do not understand how you are going to overcome the randomness of CoF with skill. If your inaccuracy is going to be determined by a RNG then overcoming it is simply going to be by luck ie missing your shot by exactly the amount that the RNG tried to make your shot miss your target and thus scoring a perfect hit. Am I wrong about this?

However, if you make the reticle bounce with the Mech as it moves then you can potentially make adjustments to your shot based on the rhythm of the Mech's gait and still have a chance to land your shot on target intitially. However, the gait would cause your lasers to trace a path as the reticle moved or the uAC to land its second shot in a different location. That, to me, is skill overcoming(at least partially) adverse conditions.

While I understand the desire to add a computer simulated dice role to accuracy from the TT perspective, I have always played MechWarrior as a Mech simulator so adding number generated random inaccuracy in targeting to the game just feels wrong to me unless it is tied to an environmental element such as uneven terrain, wind or the movement of the Mech.

At this point in the discussion, invoking RNG is a straight-up straw man, at least when considering much of what was discussed in the last several pages of this thread.

[Cy Mitchell]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 15 June 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

At this point in the discussion, invoking RNG is a straight-up straw man, at least when considering much of what was discussed in the last several pages of this thread.

You may be right on that. My post was in response to something the Bishop posted several pages back. I made my post before reading the thread all the way to the end. Frankly at this point, I am too exhausted to read those pages and think about it so you can disregard my opinion if you like. It is not like we really have a say in how this problem is going to be (or not going to be) handled anyway. I will now bow out of the discussion and simply go get some sleep. Good night, Gentlemen.

[AEROassault]

I don't know if this has been said before, because I don't have time to read through 10 more pages of people arguing, but this is all a consequence of playing a shooter. Which necessitates that your shots should go where you aim, and that the winner is determined by individual skill (considering all other variables equal). I, personally, play Counterstrike: Global Offensive, a tactical twitch based shooter. In that game, your tactical sense (positioning), ammo management (if your gun has low ammo reloads), and individual skill and knowledge determine if you win individual aim duels. You live or die by the fact that you are better or worse than your opponent. And there are no scopes on (most) conventional rifles, but you can still land head shots at long range (hundreds of feet), if you have the skill. That game of course requires you to be standing still to shoot accurately, but don't start that argument, because your CS:GO avatar accelerates much quicker than a battlemech, so a stop and shoot mechanic would never work for this game. Being able to move and shoot accurately allows us to utilize cover, take shots and play tactically. I need to move to new cover? Cool, shoot them to keep them down as I move. It's not World of Tanks (which I have played too, and quit). TTK in CS:GO is measured in milliseconds. In this game, even if you mess up big time, and peek a whole enemy firing line, you can still survive, and will survive, unless you stand still in front of them. And that is how it should be. You need consequences for just sitting there.
TLDR: TTK is where it should be, because peeking multiple people for long amounts of time should get you killed. Aiming is fine, shots should go where you aim, and the person with better aim should win.

[Antonio]

I think we can all agree that there is a problem and I would say one of the biggest way it manifests itself (for me) is that using a single large weapon is inferior to a bunch of small weapons in most situations.

I really like the idea of the multiple smaller hitboxes within a section and if that was combined with the smaller weapons have a higher fire rate but lower damage per shot I think we would be spot on. Then the role of a heavy weapon would be to punch holes in the armor and the smaller weapons would be DPS. As been also pointed out, it may be unlikely that additional hitboxes will be implemented and I think many players will not like CoF because it takes away agency. I know I would hate it if I fire at a red CT and my reticle is centered but the shot hits a ST instead due to probability (yes over the long run if I have good aim most would hit the CT but we only remember the bad experience of the miss).

To tie this back to large vs. small weapons and agency over aiming, what if a group of weapons weapons could not hit a single section of the mech (with spread decreasing with range) but the reticle reflected the hit location of each of those weapons so you still had the agency of decided where to place that damage.

Example 1: You point your AC20 at the enemy CT and fire and it its the spot (plus any lead time)
Example 2: You point 6 MLas at the target and each one has its own small reticle and they aren't completely on top of each other. You could fire them in smaller groups and adjust your aim a bit after each shot so that each lands on the CT (giving the enemy some time to twist) or you fire all 6 and most hit the CT but some hit the ST.

In both situations you have complete control of how to get the damage where you want it to be without RNG and it makes a single large weapon relevant compared to group of smaller weapons.

[Lightfoot]

Not much time here, but I often wait to make a shot a moving target for a point where they become fixed, either moving away on level ground or moving toward me. Uneven ground or laterally shifting targets do make hitting the target much more difficult. PnP doesn't have that feature of waiting for a clear shot.

[MischiefSC]

AEROassault, on 15 June 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

I don't know if this has been said before, because I don't have time to read through 10 more pages of people arguing, but this is all a consequence of playing a shooter. Which necessitates that your shots should go where you aim, and that the winner is determined by individual skill (considering all other variables equal). I, personally, play Counterstrike: Global Offensive, a tactical twitch based shooter. In that game, your tactical sense (positioning), ammo management (if your gun has low ammo reloads), and individual skill and knowledge determine if you win individual aim duels. You live or die by the fact that you are better or worse than your opponent. And there are no scopes on (most) conventional rifles, but you can still land head shots at long range (hundreds of feet), if you have the skill. That game of course requires you to be standing still to shoot accurately, but don't start that argument, because your CS:GO avatar accelerates much quicker than a battlemech, so a stop and shoot mechanic would never work for this game. Being able to move and shoot accurately allows us to utilize cover, take shots and play tactically. I need to move to new cover? Cool, shoot them to keep them down as I move. It's not World of Tanks (which I have played too, and quit). TTK in CS:GO is measured in milliseconds. In this game, even if you mess up big time, and peek a whole enemy firing line, you can still survive, and will survive, unless you stand still in front of them. And that is how it should be. You need consequences for just sitting there.
TLDR: TTK is where it should be, because peeking multiple people for long amounts of time should get you killed. Aiming is fine, shots should go where you aim, and the person with better aim should win.

And if the was Overwatch or CS:GO I would agree and I play both.

It's not. In fact that's the whole point of this game being a Battletech game and not a robot reskin of an existing shooter.

This isn't a typical shooter. That's the point.

[YueFei]

They could just add actual aim-punch when you get hit, instead of cosmetic reticle cockpit shake, which doesn't actually cause your aim to deviate.

Something like in MechWarrior 3 or 4. You could juggle someone's aim, smacking their torso around. This meant firing an alpha-strike was a bit of a gamble, because if you got struck just before you decided to pull the trigger and didn't react in time, you could end up firing your entire alpha strike into the dirt or into thin air.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 15 June 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

And if the was Overwatch or CS:GO I would agree and I play both. It's not. In fact that's the whole point of this game being a Battletech game and not a robot reskin of an existing shooter. This isn't a typical shooter. That's the point.

I think that's what he was getting at. That while MWO has elements that are similar to other shooters such as CS:GO, it isn't even close to a normal FPS in the end, and is already far more forgiving.

If y'all want to incorporate some skill based method of aim deviation, such as crosshair sway, I'm cool with that.

If y'all want to incorporate predictable weapon recoil based off weapon types and hardpoint location, I'm cool with that as well.

If y'all want to incorporate some RNG based aim deviation, in which I miss a dual CERPPC shot I should have hit, and I get rekt because that was the last guy on the other team and we're both cherry red CT, and there is 100% nothing I could have done to predict and adjust to make that shot hit, all for the sake of, "Tabletop," nuh uh. No way bruh.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 15 June 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

I think that's what he was getting at. That while MWO has elements that are similar to other shooters such as CS:GO, it isn't even close to a normal FPS in the end, and is already far more forgiving.

If y'all want to incorporate some skill based method of aim deviation, such as crosshair sway, I'm cool with that.

If y'all want to incorporate predictable weapon recoil based off weapon types and hardpoint location, I'm cool with that as well.

If y'all want to incorporate some RNG based aim deviation, in which I miss a dual CERPPC shot I should have hit, and I get rekt because that was the last guy on the other team and we're both cherry red CT, and there is 100% nothing I could have done to predict and adjust to make that shot hit, all for the sake of, "Tabletop," nuh uh. No way bruh.

A simple CoF is being recommended only from the context of 'even PGI could do that'.

I think we all agree with you in concept - it needs to be something you can mitigate.

We're going afield of the topic by trying to drill down on problems with a single mechanic. Lemme try and sum up.

Problems:

1. The weapon stats, damage, armor, hit locations, all the core mechanics are based on accuracy being an absolute hard to get premium.

2. Damage and how it's handled is based around the idea of damage being spread out and sporadic.

3. Superweapons. Current mech design tends to build around making a single superweapon that when combined with the other stated issues exacerbates pinpoint accuracy by 8 or 9 fold, literally. Mechs are largely build around the idea of the alphastrike being the standard method of fire or at most a 0.5 second delay in getting all weapons on a single location.

4. The current game model tries to keep close to the same stats but has increased RoF 4x, armor 2x and given perfect accuracy. This pretty much completely breaks the underlying mechanics being ported from TT and creates a slew of underlying issues.

Suggested Solutions:

1. Change the mechanics of weapons not just a little bit but a lot. More DoT, drastic reduction of DPS and PPFLD, Ghost Heat 2.0 sort of ideas to limit alpha strikes, big fundamental changes to weapon mechanics to reduce the impact of vastly superior accuracy per-shot.

2. Convergence mechanics use to reduce consistent accuracy and possibly the superweapon problem.

3. A CoF style effect that can be mitigated in a manner similar to convergence effects listed above - only listed independently of convergence because it's seen (perhaps very logically) as a more likely mechanic to see the light of day than something convergence related.

Expectations In Solutions -

1. Whatever solutions are seriously considered they need to be skill-managed. Even a CoF effect (like in most shooters) can be managed by timing or the right weapon loadout. Perhaps shooting 1 weapon (or any group of weapons doing 20pts or less or whatever) has no CoF/convergence issues, have it mitigated by locks or staying on target for 1 second or even just visually obviously reticles where the shot will hit while it's off central convergence with other weapons.

2. It needs to be realistically implemented by PGI. Currently the biggest hurdle to anything more complex than tweeting 'do you want to buy a mech pack'.

3. It needs to promote mech build diversity (not so much frankenmechs but a diverse range of builds and loadouts) and a wide skill curve, as in it needs to have skill-based solutions to added challenges so that developing skill in the game continues to provide reward and advancement. A mechanic whos only purpose is to negate the value of good aiming skills, positioning, etc. is inherently a bad idea.

4. It needs to address as close to all the created problems as possible and will probably include some aspect of all the listed solutions. Bigger changes to weapon metrics, some sort of convergence/situational CoF effects that can be mitigated through skill, some solution to superweapon builds and narrow meta.

So if CoF is more likely than convergence to see the light of day from PGI maybe the concept has merit. So what are some good ways in the context above to create mitigation for CoF that PGI could potentially create that would make that solve the listed issues? Is there a rational convergence solution that would do it that maybe PGI could do? How do you address the superweapon build problem? Is there a fundamental change to weapon function you can think of that would help with some or all of it?

[FalconerGray]

I wrote an extensive concept detailing many ideas that could work in a future title. I wish this game were to have had a serious focus on immersion and simulation details, but I doubt it will ever reach it's true potential.

Have a quick skim through here: http://mwomercs.com/...the-battlemech/

[WarHippy]

MischiefSC, on 15 June 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

I agree we want a ton more accuracy. I'd like to see it move away from building superweapon loadouts and limit big alphas (35+) in some way but I'm pretty flexible on. What it looks like.

Instead of CoF or Ghost Heat 2.0 I would rather have power draw that effects cool downs on weapons. As an example if you go over 30 damage +50% cool down to all weapons fired, over 40 damage +75%, and over 50 damage +100%. At least to me that is more interesting and enjoyable than what is being proposed and still helps on the ttk side of things.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

MWO is EZ Mode in aiming. It's so easy I catch myself repeatedly acting like I actually have to lead my shots in this game, after playing WOWS.

You also act as if precision shooting were not possible (and it VERY much is in WOWS. Otherwise everyone's damage numbers would be the same... guess what? They aren't.).

I can target people's turrets, their bows, smoke stacks, sterns, depending on how much lead I place on the target. My shells, are going to land there, more often than not. And there's a good chance I'm going to knock out that turret, or possibly Citadel an enemy ship, reliably, or at the very least penetrate for significant damage.

Precision shooting in WoWs? Sort of I guess. Well timed shots would be more accurate. Timing your torps or firing your guns from range is more a guessing game than precision shooting. With long travel times on projectiles you are mostly hedging your bets on what the other player is going to do so you at least hit let alone hit exactly where you want in that game. The RNG "CoF" mechanic actually helps you hit targets more than you would if you could fire pinpoint in that game(at least at range). Having pinpoint with a 10+ sec flight time for incoming shells effectively means you only need to dodge one point of impact rather than several.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Maybe this game isn't so popular in part because of how shallow the gameplay is? Shallow gameplay is in part created by the fact that let's be honest, MWO is easy.

The game is shallow, but the firing mechanics are not why, or at the least are much farther down the list than many other things. As for easy I disagree. Easy aiming maybe, but people still struggle with that so even then I have my doubts.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

You rack up as big of an alpha strike as you can, setup a gunline somewhere, and either push into your enemy's backside and whup their *** or you wait for them to be stupid and charge you.
Or you mindlessly circle about, ignore caps and just kill everyone.

WoWs could be defined in similar dumbed down terms.
Bring big boat, setup a gun line of ships somewhere, and either push into your enemy's flanks and whup their *** or you wait for them to be stupid and charge you.
Or you mindlessly circle an island, ignore caps and just kill everyone.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

You think skill doesn't factor into WOWS? It does. A hell of a lot more than it does in MWO.

Skill does factor into both. You may think it doesn't here, but if it didn't you wouldn't have people with vastly different skill levels here.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

"Go play WOWS THEN!" the supposed Skill Crowd will say... I play this game because it has big effing robots in it. That doesn't mean this game can't take from frankly it's Betters to become better itself.

I enjoyed WoWs for awhile, but I am done with that game and that company. Frankly absurd policies with regard to over powered ships that revolve around them not fixing them but instead no longer selling them so that only a special few that purchased them early have them going forward. That in my book is even worse than P2W and puts them well below PGI in terms of scuminess.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Non existent armor mechanics, non existent detection mechanics, further de incentivise lighter chassis.

Info warfare is something we have all wanted, and it is something that PGI needs to address. However, that has little to do with the topic at hand.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Cap not mattering compared to the Murderball, means there's no reason NOT to murderball on every game mode, ever. And that's equally stupid.

That was my experience in WoW as well. Group up murder the enemy. I will say that objectives did receive more attention than they do here, but they were often still ignored in favor of fighting.

Mavairo, on 15 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

For a Thinking Man's Shooter™ there's a whole lot of Stupid and Simple in this game's actual gameplay.
And if you support the shallow gameplay as it is...maybe you aren't so Thinking Man or "Skilled" ™ as you think.

The "thinking man" part involves more than just playing in matches it also includes building your mechs etc.. There is a lot of room for improvement to be sure, but don't pretend WoW is some sort of bastion of rich game play because it really is pretty shallow in and of itself.

Edited by WarHippy, 16 June 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 16 June 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

How do you address the superweapon build problem?

This will never be addressed without giving super quirks in such a way that bracket builds don't sacrifice so much firepower compared to specialized build.

I don't remember which thread I put it in, but if a bracket build has around 75-80% the firepower of a specialized build, then a bracket build might be viable against the specialized build, but until that is the case, specialized builds (or superweapon builds as you call them) will always be the goto. The risk of having weapons that behave and are used in different situations is just never worth the reward currently, and won't without large and very targeted balance changes.

[RussianWolf]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 15 June 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Consider the following:

The reticule consists of two elements: a cross for the torso weapons and a circle for the arm weapons. As variables stack up, the circle goes from what is essentially a point to more of a proper circle, while the area encompassed by the open center of the cross likewise expands. At rest, with no heat or other factors in play, firing the arm weapons will land all shots within the arbitrarily small arm reticule, while firing the torso weapons will land all shots within the arbitrarily small area enclosed by the arms of the cross. At high precision reduction, the arm weapons will impact at the outside edges of the arm reticule circle, dividing them into what are essentially two tight groups. Similarly, torso weapons will impact at the inner edges of the arms of the cross, leading to up to four tight impact groups (head for the upper arm, CT for the lower arm, and STs for the horizontal arms).

Your accuracy remains 100%, but your precision is predictably reduced in a way that is reflected graphically. Now, additional effects might apply based on how the heat scale ends up performing (say, fuzzing the reticule or other HUD elements, which is a common choice for MW devs when relfecting heat effects). The Academy would naturally be updated to reflect this mechanic, and it'd apply another layer of skill when managing weapons during intense combat.

Then maybe we can get the PPC effect added in that scrambles your entire HUD for a few seconds.... YES PLEASE!!!!!