140 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

wanderer, on 17 June 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Well, Oxides got their quirks downgraded and now are bigger, period thanks to the resizing.

How much good it'll do? Who knows.

Mickey Knoxx, on 17 June 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

quirks really seem inline. Not sure how it will play out with the rescale, but we shall see.

The problem is they completely reduced the Accel and Decel and boost the accel and decel of the atlas. Gotta love it

That is a harder hit than the other quirk reduction

The oxide will now become non existent as it will not be able to get the hell out of a bad situation. Its gonna evade like a darn tank now.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 17 June 2016 - 04:07 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Darian DelFord, on 17 June 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

The problem is they completely reduced the Accel and Decel and boost the accel and decel of the atlas. Gotta love it

That is a harder hit than the other quirk reduction

The oxide will now become non existent as it will not be able to get the hell out of a bad situation. Its gonna evade like a darn tank now.

The Jenner IICs will turn even worse. Compared to the Oxide they are already trucks. Now they move up one notch in the movement archtype...

Not that Wolfhounds will fare much better.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 18 June 2016 - 01:23 AM.

[Yosharian]

The Oxide is still insanely durable, it will not suffer all that much. You just can't stop + start as crazily as before.

[maniacos]

Baulven, on 15 June 2016 - 06:40 AM, said:

So since the Kodiak thread is diving into the tournament data can we have the oxide addressed? The ridiculous damage soak it is capable of her agitated me for some time. The combination of clan duration, oxide speed, hitboxes and tankiness make it an exercise in frustration during faction play. Not to mention many teams are starting to run 4 or more now that people understand just how powerful it is.

Uhm... Jenner IIC? It runs almost as fast as a Locust with twice the damage output and twice the armor.
(Disclaimer: No, I am not complaining, I can kill them well enough. I just find it funny complaining about the Oxide when they have Jenner IICs and Cheetas running around.)

[Yosharian]

maniacos, on 18 June 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

Uhm... Jenner IIC? It runs almost as fast as a Locust with twice the damage output and twice the armor.
(Disclaimer: No, I am not complaining, I can kill them well enough. I just find it funny complaining about the Oxide when they have Jenner IICs and Cheetas running around.)

Afaik the Jenner IIC doesn't have +16 structure on each leg?

[maniacos]

Yosharian, on 18 June 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

Afaik the Jenner IIC doesn't have +16 structure on each leg?

So? It's faster and has jumpjets. And it puts out more damage...
If it had the same structure quirks it would be clearly OP.

[Yosharian]

maniacos, on 18 June 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

So? It's faster and has jumpjets. And it puts out more damage...
If it had the same structure quirks it would be clearly OP.

Faster: 10kph? Wow what a ******* advantage, clearly OP

Jumpjets: only a slight advantage

More damage: barely given the Oxide's quirks

[maniacos]

Yosharian, on 18 June 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Faster: 10kph? Wow what a ******* advantage, clearly OP

Jumpjets: only a slight advantage

More damage: barely given the Oxide's quirks

Learn to read.

[Tordin]

As.. as long as my Wolfhounds, Panthers and Firestarters wont be bigger than mediums Im fine. I was kinda glad they made them small. It was just an odd sight in Mech Warrior 4, all those tall lights running around.
Well I guess i'll say more when we have played around with the changes for a while.

[Darian DelFord]

Yosharian, on 18 June 2016 - 01:43 AM, said:

The Oxide is still insanely durable, it will not suffer all that much. You just can't stop + start as crazily as before.

There is no crazily about it. All the Jenners stop and go like tanks as most lights do. There is a reason why he have a very difficult time staying behind assaults and lesser extent heavies. This is one of those reasons. The accel decel change will hit Oxides hard and make it even more difficult. It relies on being less than 100 meters to be deadly. Now the second the assault does a 180 in less than 2 seconds. There will be a dead Oxide

I just hope with his rescale that PGI realized they yet again indirectly or perhaps directly nerfed lights and I hope very soon in the future they get something. I mean seriously the last thing ANY Jenner needed was to have its CT even larger.

Tordin, on 18 June 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

As.. as long as my Wolfhounds, Panthers and Firestarters wont be bigger than mediums Im fine. I was kinda glad they made them small. It was just an odd sight in Mech Warrior 4, all those tall lights running around.
Well I guess i'll say more when we have played around with the changes for a while.

Unless something changed from last night wolf and FS grew by 30+ %

[Yosharian]

maniacos, on 18 June 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

Learn to read.

You need to learn to think.

Darian DelFord, on 18 June 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

There is no crazily about it. All the Jenners stop and go like tanks as most lights do. There is a reason why he have a very difficult time staying behind assaults and lesser extent heavies. This is one of those reasons. The accel decel change will hit Oxides hard and make it even more difficult. It relies on being less than 100 meters to be deadly. Now the second the assault does a 180 in less than 2 seconds. There will be a dead Oxide

Solution: don't stop + start, just do hit + runs. Most of the problems I have dealing with Oxides stem from them being exceptionally difficult to kill in a timely manner due to their insane structure bonuses, and their ability to put out very strong alpha strikes in quick succession. The 'nerfs' touch neither of these issues.

The Firestarter, Jenner IIC and ACH, all premier brawler/hit'n'run lights, do not have leg structure quirks. When the ACH first came out it did, and eventually they got removed - and whadya know, ACHs were actually close to balanced for the first time since their release.

Lights are already extremely hard to hit, DOUBLING their structure, especially in the leg area, is an insane bonus and one that should be reserved for the very worst lights. It's not something the Oxide should have.

Edited by Yosharian, 18 June 2016 - 07:05 AM.

[Tordin]

Darian DelFord, on 18 June 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

There is no crazily about it. All the Jenners stop and go like tanks as most lights do. There is a reason why he have a very difficult time staying behind assaults and lesser extent heavies. This is one of those reasons. The accel decel change will hit Oxides hard and make it even more difficult. It relies on being less than 100 meters to be deadly. Now the second the assault does a 180 in less than 2 seconds. There will be a dead Oxide

I just hope with his rescale that PGI realized they yet again indirectly or perhaps directly nerfed lights and I hope very soon in the future they get something. I mean seriously the last thing ANY Jenner needed was to have its CT even larger.



Unless something changed from last night wolf and FS grew by 30+ %

At least the Wolfhound is tanky, even with an XL. I can get used to it, but it dosent mean Its for the better.

[Darian DelFord]

Yosharian, on 18 June 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

Solution: don't stop + start, just do hit + runs. Most of the problems I have dealing with Oxides stem from them being exceptionally difficult to kill in a timely manner due to their insane structure bonuses, and their ability to put out very strong alpha strikes in quick succession. The 'nerfs' touch neither of these issues.

The Firestarter, Jenner IIC and ACH, all premier brawler/hit'n'run lights, do not have leg structure quirks. When the ACH first came out it did, and eventually they got removed - and whadya know, ACHs were actually close to balanced for the first time since their release.

Lights are already extremely hard to hit, DOUBLING their structure, especially in the leg area, is an insane bonus and one that should be reserved for the very worst lights. It's not something the Oxide should have.

I am sorry but when you are trying to stay behind someone you have to stop and start. Doing "attack runs" sounds cool but is a bit more tricky depending on the map and location. Simply put Oxides like all lights rely on not being seen. Doing straffing runs can be suicidal

You and I have a very different opinion on insane structure quirks. The ST has a +8. Which is easily negated by 2 MLs. Every one knows NOT to aim for a jenners legs but aim for the CT. If you aim for the legs your doing it wrong. Sorry but that is a fact for the Jenner

The mechs you mentioned are all humanoid shape and can roll damage soooo much easier than a Jenner and the IIcs make up in their weapon damage and range. Have you seen what I can do with 6 c MPLs on a Jenner?

Lights are only hard to hit if you have aiming issues. As someone who pilots a Jenner almost exclusively. If I get caught in the open the enemy has no problems killing me.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 18 June 2016 - 08:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Darian DelFord, on 18 June 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

I am sorry but when you are trying to stay behind someone you have to stop and start. Doing "attack runs" sounds cool but is a bit more tricky depending on the map and location. Simply put Oxides like all lights rely on not being seen. Doing straffing runs can be suicidal

You and I have a very different opinion on insane structure quirks. The ST has a +8. Which is easily negated by 2 MLs. Every one knows NOT to aim for a jenners legs but aim for the CT. If you aim for the legs your doing it wrong. Sorry but that is a fact for the Jenner

The mechs you mentioned are all humanoid shape and can roll dame solo much easier than a Jenner and the IIcs make up in their weapon damage and range. Have you seen what I can do with 6 c MPLs on a Jenner?

Lights are only hard to hit if you have aiming issues. As someone who pilots a Jenner almost exclusively. If I get caught in the open the enemy has no problems killing me.

light mechs used to stop and start behind people before we had these things called quirks.....

Huh.


Back to basics, I guess?

As for the "aiming issues" I've watched plenty enough Comp Streams and watched Lights get away with murder. Yes they get hit more often, overall, but still get totally borked hitreg all the time. Thing is, the Light Pilot is usually unaware of the "misses".

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 June 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 June 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

light mechs used to stop and start behind people before we had these things called quirks.....

Huh.


Back to basics, I guess?

Yup. Then the assaults got them to

[ice trey]

When I first bought the Oxide, the Firestarters had recently been released, and people laughed the Oxide off of the playing field. I didn't hate it, though lack of jump was a huge hit when compared to my other Jenners.

For a while, people talked about it as if it was the next big thing. I was too busy trying to level my marauders and archers.

Now it's being dialed back again. For me, this isn't an issue. Just don't chase the meta. It's a losing battle if you're not clocking two hours a day.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Darian DelFord, on 17 June 2016 - 04:03 PM, said:

The problem is they completely reduced the Accel and Decel and boost the accel and decel of the atlas. Gotta love it

That is a harder hit than the other quirk reduction

The oxide will now become non existent as it will not be able to get the hell out of a bad situation. Its gonna evade like a darn tank now.

Ok... seriously... how hard is it for folks to understand. The Oxide and Jenner IIC are Boom and Zoom mechs. You don't slow down, you don't stop, you very very rarely hit more than one or two alphas per attack run. For frack's sake you don't sit around circle jerking the enemy letting them get shots off at you.

It's not about getting the kill on the first pass. It's about making them afraid. Letting them stew in their fear, never knowing when you're going to come back and finish them. Never knowing which of their friends is next. A boom and zoom light is a bomber, an assassin, and above all a psychological weapon.

Now stop playing the damn thing incorrectly.

Ok... old man Narc is tired of shaking his cane at the kiddies... gonna take a nap now.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 18 June 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 June 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

light mechs used to stop and start behind people before we had these things called quirks.....

Huh.


Back to basics, I guess?

As for the "aiming issues" I've watched plenty enough Comp Streams and watched Lights get away with murder. Yes they get hit more often, overall, but still get totally borked hitreg all the time. Thing is, the Light Pilot is usually unaware of the "misses".

LoL. My response was quicker than your edit.

I am not saying hit reg is gone. But many assaults and heavies use it as a crutch for not aiming and hitting or using clan ER larg lasers and wanting to know why the light was not vaporized when they spread it all over.

The reverse is true. Lights think they are great due to hit reg issues that do crop up. However I think that the hit reg is no where near as prevalent as it used to be. Just spectating people you see very quickly people just don't know how to aim. Especially against a light that knows how to be unpredictable

Narcissistic Martyr, on 18 June 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Ok... seriously... how hard is it for folks to understand. The Oxide and Jenner IIC are Boom and Zoom mechs. You don't slow down, you don't stop, you very very rarely hit more than one or two alphas per attack run. For frack's sake you don't sit around circle jerking the enemy letting them get shots off at you.

It's not about getting the kill on the first pass. It's about making them afraid. Letting them stew in their fear, never knowing when you're going to come back and finish them. Never knowing which of their friends is next. A boom and zoom light is a bomber, an assassin, and above all a psychological weapon.

Now stop playing the damn thing incorrectly.

Ok... old man Narc is tired of shaking his cane at the kiddies... gonna take a nap now.

That is one role yes. But by no means there only roll. And a light should never circle anything

Edited by Darian DelFord, 18 June 2016 - 08:49 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Darian DelFord, on 18 June 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

LoL. My response was quicker than your edit.

I am not saying hit reg is gone. But many assaults and heavies use it as a crutch for not aiming and hitting or using clan ER larg lasers and wanting to know why the light was not vaporized when they spread it all over.

The reverse is true. Lights think they are great due to hit reg issues that do crop up. However I think that the hit reg is no where near as prevalent as it used to be. Just spectating people you see very quickly people just don't know how to aim. Especially against a light that knows how to be unpredictable



That is one role yes. But by no means there only roll. And a light should never circle anything

I can agree with that, it is BETTER. It's just amazing how many try to play off liek it's totally about skill when you still watch, with regularity, Light Mechs streak into a cluster of 4-6 enemy, unload a few payloads, then streak off barely hurt. Mind you, there are for sure those times Hitreg lines up, Light goes splat.... and usually is followed by cries of Hax or a ragequit.

My thing isn't that I don't feel the pain, at least short term. But that it was a needed fix, and has been for 4 years, and I have personally been riding PGI on it since before Open Beta launched. Scale and Hitboxes should NOT be used to balance, but as baselines to build the rest of the balance from. We absolutely need as few variables in that as possible, if there is ever to be a chance of actual balance.

We have some things that are a lot more out of control... geometric shape, basic hardpoints and locations. But if you have a solid baseline, with Scale, and simply approach Hitboxes as "always the best possible for each chassis", it make sit a lot easier to build the rest. You can look at the Geometry, Speed factor and such and go...look this mech..it's got base Geo, it's going to take damage, so maybe we need to enhance it's offensive potential with hardpoint inflation. But without an impartial objective floor to build from, it's realyl not possible to get those things balanced.

Also, in an ideal world, this would allow them to minimize use of Quirks. Which are currently an out of control bandaid.

That said, PGI needs to get more proactive, keep changes MINOR, but also a lot more often. Every month should see quirk tweaks based off the telemetry between. But small ones.

And PGI absolutely needs to deliver on some form of Role Warfare and rewards based on it, especially info war.

But I can tell you, the way the game has been going since the last major quirk pass? On paper was one of the more balanced eras, in actuality, was the worst IMO since the height of poptarting.

As for only role? Of course not. But a light should have to leverage that speed and mobility to beat an Assault 1v1, not just be able to park and stutter step behind one, but probably actually have to hit and run, and then set up a new ambush point. And they should never win charges against an Assault, which i have witnessed Oxides do with some regularity. (bad hitreg combined with stupid levels of offensive quirks ftw!)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 June 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 June 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Sorry on my phone and to much text means I can't type

Do I think it's needed not this way no. Should have been started with the assaults and go down. Do it one weight class at a time. Seriously all this did was need lights into the ground until something changes. They WILL be more easily hit now and I do not think that is really controversial.

PGI does not have a good track record of fixing what they broke. I mean hell the hit boxes on the Jenner are still bugged and have been since beta and every patch I submit a bug report that to this day has not been fixed.

I am all for balance changes. And if this is the start fine. I just think they started wrong. You will see the light queue plummet. The life of a light was already damned difficult as it was prior to this patch

In regards to quirks. Worst move ever

diverse skill trees should have been in this game since day one. That would have bright far more balance to the game than anything

The problem PGI has not picked up on yet is when they make sweeping changes like his they are then chasing their *** for the next 6 months trying to even things out