140 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Rampage, on 15 June 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Cure the Alpha problem and the Oxide, Jenner II-C and Arctic Cheetah become mortal again.

ACH has the same size alpha as FS9 if not smaller....

So this is going to hurt anything other the the ACH, Oxide and IIC Jenner you are saying?

[Baulven]

Darian DelFord, on 16 June 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

As someone who pilots nothing but lights and Jenners specifically.

The D F AND K are in dire need or upgrades with the current state of the game, as well as other lights.

The Heavies and Assaults can whine all they want. But the fact of the matter is lights have been nerfered into the ground simply because they want to be the only thing feared on the battle ground and not worry about their backs and legs.

Something else I find interesting is the "Oh we can't hit them argument" All the while their arm lock is on.

I can hit them just fine for the initial. The problem is try keeping a clan ER-LL on one for the full second plus at the speed they move with the hit-boxes they have. On the IS side this sort of issue isn't as pronounced because of the duration shortening quirks and such that give you burn times around half of what clans deal with. PPFLD shouldn't be a mandatory investment because most teams are now dropping up to a full lance of a single mech in FP.

[Corrado]

Darian DelFord, on 15 June 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Just as stupid as assault mechs that can do 60+ points of damage and take 7 to 8 shots to kill



Yeah like I said. Heavies and assaults want to corner the market in being the only thing feared. Yet there are few lights that can challenge them and they whine

Oxide is fine. the other lights needs buffs. No problem freezing an oxide with an AC40 crab, UAC mauler, dakka bear, SRM bear.

a good light knows how to pilot and never decel in front of a PPFLD beavy/assault. a good assault knows how to pilot to defend the back and leg the lights.

ravens, commies and IS standard jenners needs buffs.

if bad pilots can't shoot down lights, could always roll a skillcrow / skilldog.

[Darian DelFord]

Baulven, on 16 June 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

I can hit them just fine for the initial. The problem is try keeping a clan ER-LL on one for the full second plus at the speed they move with the hit-boxes they have. On the IS side this sort of issue isn't as pronounced because of the duration shortening quirks and such that give you burn times around half of what clans deal with. PPFLD shouldn't be a mandatory investment because most teams are now dropping up to a full lance of a single mech in FP.

Jenners, including the Oxide, have arguably the worst hit boxes of ANY mech currently in the game. Aim for the CT and dead Jenner.

While Clan weapons do have longer burn times they are also better at range and damage. A TW with 2 LPL and 4 ML,s can still have a huge blow to a Jenner or ANY light even if the burn is even for half duration. Most lights have 40 CT and 28 ST armor. That is barely half of some alpha's walking around up there. Add in that most lights except the locust had their accel and decel reduced it makes it damned difficult to stay behind anything. Heavies and Assaults are simply too agile.

While my Jenner Channel shows great matches I have had in my Jenner. For every great match I have had I have had mediocre and matches where I have been flat out destroyed from 500+ meters running at 149 KPH all because my dorito chip was spotted at range for a split second and some kid had better reflexes than I had.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 17 June 2016 - 05:25 AM.

[Aerei]

It's not the Oxide's fault that you can't aim.

[Cy Mitchell]

Chuck Jager, on 15 June 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Oxide has a low alpha, but high fire rate
Cheetah has about the same alpha as many other decent lights but longer clan range and great hitboxes
Only the SRM JennIIC has the great alpha

I do not mind the Oxide rate of fire, but I feel either the rate or the internal structure needs to go. A laser burning light is pretty much dead unless it has many IS smallpulse with duration and can get in close while still moving. It is funny how srms for lights now seem better than lasers for dependable damage - especially against other lights. (my observation - not the best light pilot though)

I have seen some really mediocre Oxides (poor predictable movement) dodge damage as well as some of the Spiders of old, but with better damage numbers.

The Alpha problem seldom involves one Alpha. It is the ability to repeatedly fire Alphas that is breaking the game.

[Big Bertha 00]

Look at the tournament. Nearly every competitive team runs Oxides and KDK-3. I wonder why?

[MrJeffers]

Big Bertha 00, on 17 June 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Look at the tournament. Nearly every competitive team runs Oxides and KDK-3. I wonder why?

Not sure what you're watching, but I'm seeing far more Jenner IICs than Oxides in the tourny. Oxides are practically non-existent.

[xTrident]

I paid a little closer attention while piloting my Oxide last night. Calling it OP, eh, maybe. Against mediums and other lights I suppose. Catch an XL engined Jager all by himself it might seem that way as well.

What I noticed the most of anything were player's lack of situational awareness - something that's always talked about. I was easily poking over hills, down canyons, around buildings etc and getting a shot off without getting shot back. Or, if I was getting return fire they weren't hitting me for ****. Let's say the hit boxes are good on the Jenner - that may be, but what about the armor? I wasn't losing much in the way of armor as I'm poking out and being given return fire.

My conclusion, especially after one match in which I ran out of ammo and was just running around four enemy mechs over and over and not dying... Is aim is an issue. I couldn't believe how long it took them to finally kill me running around essentially weaponless. How much of that is the Oxide being OP as opposed to poor aiming?

I don't kill lights all that well, but you know what? It's because I can't hit them for ****!

Edited by xTrident, 17 June 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[DarthHias]

Jenner has bad hitboxes.
People have bad aim.

I mean, a few posts up a guy complained that a Clan ER Large can´t get a good burn on a Light. ?
Mayhaps don´t use the worst weapon to shoot Lights with for shooting lights?`

[Tatula]

xTrident, on 17 June 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

I paid a little closer attention while piloting my Oxide last night. Calling it OP, eh, maybe. Against mediums and other lights I suppose. Catch an XL engined Jager all by himself it might seem that way as well.

What I noticed the most of anything were player's lack of situational awareness - something that's always talked about. I was easily poking over hills, down canyons, around buildings etc and getting a shot off without getting shot back. Or, if I was getting return fire they weren't hitting me for ****. Let's say the hit boxes are good on the Jenner - that may be, but what about the armor? I wasn't losing much in the way of armor as I'm poking out and being given return fire.

My conclusion, especially after one match in which I ran out of ammo and was just running around four enemy mechs over and over and not dying... Is aim is an issue. I couldn't believe how long it took them to finally kill me running around essentially weaponless. How much of that is the Oxide being OP as opposed to poor aiming?

I don't kill lights all that well, but you know what? It's because I can't hit them for ****!

If aim is the problem, then it applies to all fast moving light mechs and not just the Oxide. The structure quirks and the ability to deliver quick front load damage in addition to high DPS is what make Oxides to deadly.

[Mycrus]

Protip - i am what makes oxides deadly.

[xTrident]

Aloha, on 17 June 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

If aim is the problem, then it applies to all fast moving light mechs and not just the Oxide. The structure quirks and the ability to deliver quick front load damage in addition to high DPS is what make Oxides to deadly.

Well I can run around in my Arctic Cheetah doing the same thing. Watched my friend do the exact same thing on the same map in his Spider. I've seen Ravens and Locusts do it. So yeah, I'd say aim is a problem that everyone seems to shy away from.

[Darian DelFord]

Big Bertha 00, on 17 June 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Look at the tournament. Nearly every competitive team runs Oxides and KDK-3. I wonder why?

Look Below

MrJeffers, on 17 June 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

Not sure what you're watching, but I'm seeing far more Jenner IICs than Oxides in the tourny. Oxides are practically non-existent.

[DrxAbstract]

CK16, on 15 June 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

My thing is why do any light mechs need structure added? Sorry but light mechs are not meant to take a hit really.....before you say well they die to fast then....true but usually when a light mech is stopped does one get to one shot them usually.....Light mech ability to survive should only be in thier speed and smaller size....aka face tanking an assualt should not happen, hit and run is what light mechs specialize in not brawling monoemono against larger mechs....

With that Oxide with its combination of over done structure quriks and decent weapons quirks is by far the best.....some could compare the Jenner IIC but the difference both maintain high offensive abilities while the Oxide now has far superior defensive to the Jenner IIC and all other light mechs.....(Oxides can eat my Streak boats for days it's not to right.....I mean come on an Oxide should not beat a Streak Boating Mad Dog or crow EVER if both are fresh and well they both require close range so yea.....)

Nerf the Oxides structure quirks and it will be fine with the rest......

Armor numbers were doubled specifically because Mechs were too easy to kill with the rapid-cooldown weapon translations from TT that PGI instituted - this was when 30 point Alphas were commonplace and HSR didn't exist. Comparatively, Mechs lasted forever (A good thing).

Now we're dealing with 50-70 Alpha repeaters and HSR with a low TTK... However the decline in life expectancy was not, and has never been, proportionate: Speed was disproportionately more valuable with lower Alphas and lack of HSR than Armor was and that has since flipped with Armor now being disproportionately more valuable than Speed... although more Armor typically came with greater firepower, the firepower potential is 100% greater now than it was then. Combine this with the flip from Speed to Armor and you have a 'bigger is better' eventuality that is counterproductive to a healthy gameplay environment where all weights and chassis should be equally viable.

While Speed and Armor effectiveness are both heavily dependant on pilot competence and have their own respective strengths that appeal to different situations, the number of situations where Armor is more ideal is quite a bit larger than Speed.

There's too much on the other side of the equasion, which causes any players wanting to play those weights to gravitate toward Lights/Mediums that possess the best combination of quirks with weapon loadouts - this is normal, expected behavior across all weights. The difference being the extremely limited selection of viable Lights/Mediums as a result of the previously mentioned imbalance between Speed and Armor that is only compounded by the multitude of other factors like crap hardpoints, weapon selection and quirks.

So... Lights like the Oxide having survival-oriented quirks on a playing field where the cards are stacked against them is perfectly acceptable and more Lights/Mediums should have them, as well as agility quirks like Accel/Decel and Turning Speed.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 17 June 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[Tatula]

xTrident, on 17 June 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Well I can run around in my Arctic Cheetah doing the same thing. Watched my friend do the exact same thing on the same map in his Spider. I've seen Ravens and Locusts do it. So yeah, I'd say aim is a problem that everyone seems to shy away from.

All the other lights mentioned - Cheetah, Spider, Raven, and Locust, have ECM variants, which does help in allowing them to stay alive longer. Not due to bad aim, but due to people not shooting at them because they can't see the red Dorito and therefore not aware of them. Cheetah is the only one among them that can deliver a decent alpha, and was another light that received OP complaints before the structure quirk reduction.

[Darian DelFord]

DrxAbstract, on 17 June 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

Armor numbers were doubled specifically because Mechs were too easy to kill with the rapid-cooldown weapon translations from TT that PGI instituted - this was when 30 point Alphas were commonplace and HSR didn't exist. Comparatively, Mechs lasted forever (A good thing).

Now we're dealing with 50-70 Alpha repeaters and HSR with a low TTK... However the decline in life expectancy was not, and has never been, proportionate: Speed was disproportionately more valuable with lower Alphas and lack of HSR than Armor was and that has since flipped with Armor now being disproportionately more valuable than Speed... although more Armor typically came with greater firepower, the firepower potential is 100% greater now than it was then. Combine this with the flip from Speed to Armor and you have a 'bigger is better' eventuality that is counterproductive to a healthy gameplay environment where all weights and chassis should be equally viable.

While Speed and Armor effectiveness are both heavily dependant on pilot competence and have their own respective strengths that appeal to different situations, the number of situations where Armor is more ideal is quite a bit larger than Speed.

There's too much on the other side of the equasion, which causes any players wanting to play those weights to gravitate toward Lights/Mediums that possess the best combination of quirks with weapon loadouts - this is normal, expected behavior across all weights. The difference being the extremely limited selection of viable Lights/Mediums as a result of the previously mentioned imbalance between Speed and Armor that is only compounded by the multitude of other factors like crap hardpoints, weapon selection and quirks.

So... Lights like the Oxide having survival-oriented quirks on a playing field where the cards are stacked against them is perfectly acceptable and more Lights/Mediums should have them, as well as agility quirks like Accel/Decel and Turning Speed.

Very much true

As I have stated for a long time now, lights have been directly and in-directly nerfed practically out of existence.

[Dar1ng One]

Mycrus, on 17 June 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Protip - i am what makes oxides deadly.

I call Bull-s**t.

Your deadly in anything.

Mmmmmmm..... yes

Mech-Cellent!

[wanderer]

Well, Oxides got their quirks downgraded and now are bigger, period thanks to the resizing.

How much good it'll do? Who knows.

[-Natural Selection-]

wanderer, on 17 June 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Well, Oxides got their quirks downgraded and now are bigger, period thanks to the resizing.

How much good it'll do? Who knows.

quirks really seem inline. Not sure how it will play out with the rescale, but we shall see.