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IS Light Re-Scales

rescale

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#321 Pragr

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 09:07 PM

Obviously it's late addition to the discussion but I've returned to the game a week ago after six or seven months. I spawned my most favored light mechs and... except the HUD, new game modes and some new crates I haven't noticed any significant differences. Before I will continue with my current experience let me say some details about myself.

I consider myself as a dedicated light mech player. Not the best but still slightly above average. Before I quit the game for couple months (it was before the re-scaling) I had almost 4 000 matches played. Out of those some 1 900 were in lights. And out of those 1 900 almost 900 were in Commandos. My second most used mechs are Pirates Bane and Raven 3L. All together I have some 1 500 games played in either Commando, Locust or Raven.

I've read all those 17 pages of light re-scale discussion. I understand the whole scream of dying lights on one hand. On the other hand I see no difference since my favored mech were not affected by these changes. They were "big" enough before and they are the same right now. I always had to adjust my tactics to the fact I do not sit in the meta. I could play well (for my own feeling) in the past and I can play well now. My second game with Command 1D when I had returned resulted in 4 kills, 4 assists, 2 kill most damage, 460 damage and 250 k C-Bills. It was not a typical game but nothing I could achieve rarely.

Now my two cents to light mech population problem. As few mentioned here the main problem of the game from lights point of view is that the game is strictly damage oriented. The secondary problems are that all maps are too small for any kind of distraction or light "indirect" fight and the constant number of player on both teams.

Regarding the damage. You do no damage -> you get nothing. There are few actions that are not tied together with damage you deal but they are not worth to do:
1) Scouting. You get 3 K for each mech you targeted first. This has usually no effect for your team because only target mechs are visible for rest of the team. So you either earn some money by fast clicking on R key which on the other hand gives your team almost zero advantage or stay focus on one enemy allows your team aimed LRMs and see it on map but you get basically no rewards.
2) Capping the base. But though you win the match for your team for low reward you will be probably hated by the rest of your teammates because they are all damage oriented and they get even less than you.
3) NARCing. You are limited by your team (there shall be any lrm boat and he shall be skilled enough to not fire on any other targets visible for 2 seconds while ignoring the big fat NARCed sitting duck - it's way more common than you would expect). Once again the revenue is too small.
4) Tagging. That the most stupid reward in the game. There is NO reward for tagging except when you break through ECM or get the tag kill. So you sit in the open LOS with your enemy, pointing a bright finger visible for everyone to one enemy and waiting. In 90 per cent cases the one who is tagging would be dead before there would be any damage to tagged target.
5) UAV. Usually it's not worth. You spent way more C-Bills for this consumable than you can earn in 99 per cent. Giving the lights (at least those orienting for gathering intel) the quirk for free use of one UAV would be interesting feature.

I try to use my Commandos, Raven and Locusts as supporters for my team as much as I can. Hell from time to time I even mount tag lasers on one of my Commando. My Raven 3L is packed with tag laser and NARC beams as highly oriented supporter but I got nothing for the job. Yesterday I player FP scouting missions. We won three out of four gathering intel missions because I was in light mech and was the only one who get to the extraction zone. I did nothing except I gathered 75 per cent of intel we got and returned to zone just in time. Thus we won these missions but guess what? I got no LPs because they are all tied up with causing damage to your enemies. Luckily, though I was in pug groups all the time the other guys understood the victory conditions so were not yelling at me not participating in brawling. Without each other we would lost. But I got nothing for my part of the job.

So what's conclusion? Until the game would be so heavily damage dealing oriented, there would be gross of lights focusing on direct damage than doing anything else. And that's the reason why the heavies are so populated because they have the mobility of mediums with damage dealing ability of some assaults. Get people rewarded for auxiliary/support tasks and you'll see less whining about lights from all directions.

For the secondary issues. Introducing of big maps with randomly generated objective locations would help a lot. And I don't mean the Alpine peak when I speak about the big map. Maps where you can get from one side to another in 60 seconds in mechs running 100 km/h are tiny.

Edited by Pragr, 14 September 2016 - 12:29 AM.


#322 Pugsley

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 03:05 PM

I actually really like the free UAV idea for lights. Or maybe something similar tied into a permanent mech module, really just anything to reward scouting and information gathering more.

I think something like the scouting mode data points in normal QP maps. Put a few in random positions around the exterior or other rarely traveled parts of the maps, and have each one captured give everyone on the team 25k Cbills or something. Just something where you can contribute to the team amd help everyone make money without brawling.

And scouting mode really really needs more rewards for being sneaky. I know that if I were sendoing out a scout lance to gather intel and they spent the whole time looking for enemies to fight, gathered a tiny % of the intel they could have, and came back missing half their lance, they would be fired and replaced with some locust pilots asap.

Edited by Pugsley, 30 September 2016 - 03:07 PM.


#323 Mister Bob Dobalina

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 11:11 PM

View PostPragr, on 13 September 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

Obv'tsly it's late addition to the discussion but I've returned to the game a week ago after six or seven months. I spawned my most favored light mechs and... except the HUD, new game modes and some new crates I haven't noticed any significant differences. Before I will continue with my current experience let me say some details about myself.

I consider myself as a dedicated light mech player. Not the best but still slightly above average. Before I quit the game for couple months (it was before the re-scaling) I had almost 4 000 matches played. Out of those some 1 900 were in lights. And out of those 1 900 almost 900 were in Commandos. My second most used mechs are Pirates Bane and Raven 3L. All together I have some 1 500 games played in either Commando, Locust or Raven.

... tiny.


Totally agree on the second part. Can't, however, so totally agree on the first part as it so happens that my favourite and for my playstyle most rewardin Mech got around a quarter to a third bigger and that did very well affect me big time.My stats my wolfhounds immediatly dropped about the same quarter to third as it got bigger and after a few weeks I had to pretty much abandon him completely because I just could not get it to work again. Panther pilots are pretty much in the same boat. I know that playstyle plays a big role in that perception, but in my case it just broke the Mech. II got the Locust instead, mainly Pirates Banes. I love it, but to be honest, it feels like borderline tiny and I am just waiting for PGI to supersize it because scared Teddy drivers are complaining. Enjoy your favourites as long as you can to the fullest. They might be gone someday.


#324 Wraith 1

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 02:19 PM

View PostPragr, on 13 September 2016 - 09:07 PM, said:

...games played in either Commando, Locust or Raven.


Commandos weren't changed. Ravens were already oversized, and had the smallest increase in size of any light. Locusts got smaller.

Try a Jenner, Firestarter, Wolfhound, or Panther and see if you still think the rescale is fine.

#325 AeusDeif

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:58 PM

I will say here what I say about any weight class.

The most important part of the scale is the forward facing profile, because you have to face the enemy to shoot them.

So for balance, remember that mechs with high mounted direct fire hardpoints will hide that profile and still be able to shoot. Mechs with low direct fire mounts must expose more to shoot. And manwalkers should not be taller and wider than birdwalkers, unless they have toughness quirks. See the 60 tonners as a good example, (http://i.imgur.com/g7JDxEu.png) the quickdraw's forward profile is similar to the vulture's and rifleman's. The dragon with it's lower df hardpoints is more compact. That's a good balance.

Lights are a little different b/c they rely more on speed. the ones that need the most help (smaller profile/quirks) are the ones that can't go fast or can't mount much weaponry. Please remember this; simple guiding principles can yield good results.

Edited by AeusDeif, 20 October 2016 - 05:11 AM.


#326 Pokey McFlankerson

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:27 AM

View PostAeusDeif, on 05 October 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

Lights are a little different b/c they rely more on speed. the ones that need the most help (smaller profile/quirks) are the ones that can't go fast or can't mount much weaponry. Please remember this; simple guiding principles can yield good results.

Good points in your post.. you are forgetting about movement quirks however. Despite being quicker, lights now feel like your piloting mediums. Some lights feel even MORE clunkier than some mediums. I wouldn't mind the resize as much if they didn't lose their original maneuverability. Their fun factor doesn't come close to what it was and now you may as well ton up and take a medium, which most of the community seems to have done.

Edited by GINGO ROBOT, 06 October 2016 - 04:40 AM.


#327 762 NATO

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 09:12 PM

Yes, PGI, we are still mad about this.

Cheers!

#328 Coldethel

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 07:33 PM

View PostRampage, on 18 June 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:


Seriously? Do you need glasses? Can you only see in one dimension? Or are you just purposely trying to make stuff up?

All the Mechs are now properly proportioned in relation to one another whether they are Assaults or Lights, Clan or IS. This is how they should have been all along.

Some folks just cannot deal with change. Adapt or die.

Thank you. Please read this everyone. Stop whining about how your pet mech just got bigger. It should have been bigger in the first place. Now learn how to pilot it correctly.

#329 SlightlyMobileTurret

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 08:19 PM

Almost everyone who's played a light in this game and are not wearing rose tinted MW4 glasses ("Lights are not supposed to do as well as other weight classes!!!!") agrees they're in a bad position right now. Very bad.

Please teach us all to pilot it correctly, I'm sure you know better than everyone else.

Edited by Keshav Murali, 10 October 2016 - 08:19 PM.


#330 Ovion

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 09:15 PM

View PostColdethel, on 10 October 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Thank you. Please read this everyone. Stop whining about how your pet mech just got bigger. It should have been bigger in the first place. Now learn how to pilot it correctly.
Yes, a little bigger, but not as big as they are.

35T Light Mechs are literally the size of 50-55T Mediums atm.
There are smaller Medium Mechs, and some near sized Heavy Mechs.
It's completely absurd.

#331 Mister Bob Dobalina

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 12:56 AM

View PostColdethel, on 10 October 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Thank you. Please read this everyone. Stop whining about how your pet mech just got bigger. It should have been bigger in the first place. Now learn how to pilot it correctly.


Don't you tell me you don't have a "Pet" Mech of your own and don't you sell me that you would not object if PGI nerfed something out of it. PGI rescaled volumetrically while the facing silhouette is actually the most impacting factor in targeting and hitting. But let's pretending the rescaling of the appearance was "justified" in it's occured extent.

Consider this:

View PostGINGO ROBOT, on 06 October 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Good points in your post.. you are forgetting about movement quirks however. Despite being quicker, lights now feel like your piloting mediums. Some lights feel even MORE clunkier than some mediums. I wouldn't mind the resize as much if they didn't lose their original maneuverability. Their fun factor doesn't come close to what it was and now you may as well ton up and take a medium, which most of the community seems to have done.


Preach!

#332 M T

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 02:48 PM

I'm surprised they let this crap continue for as long as they have. They care zilch about their playerbase.

#333 VorpalAnvil

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 04:08 PM

View PostColdethel, on 10 October 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Thank you. Please read this everyone. Stop whining about how your pet mech just got bigger. It should have been bigger in the first place. Now learn how to pilot it correctly.

Considering that you sport a pathetic .53 KDR in lights, you're going to excuse me if I don't take light piloting advice from you.

#334 Wraith 1

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 11:31 PM

It isn't just about being easier to hit. People who still give a heck about lights aren't the ones running around in the open, relying on their opponents not being able to hit a fast moving target. We're quite aware that it's our job to not be where we can be hit in the first place.

Being bigger reduces the amount of cover that is actually useful to you. There are a lot fewer places on the map where I can safely be now, which reduces my ability to flank, harass, and push. Having to compete with mediums for good firing positions doesn't help either, and I can no longer pass in front of mechs that could previously shoot over me without issue.

Movement archetype is also tied to size. Speed reduction on steep inclines is percentage based, so lights take the biggest hit. Differences in hill climbing ability aren't really apparent with most weight classes, but there's a reason I'd rather take a Commando to Canyon Network than a Wolfhound.

All the lights which got bigger also had their run animations adjusted to their lengthened stride. This made them feel much clunkier and less fun to play in general.

I'm not asking for 50% cooldown quirks or a total de-scaling of lights, but some accel/decel/top speed quirks would be nice, with maybe a buff to class V JJs or setting all lights to the 'tiny' archetype. I want to be speedy, dammit.

#335 AeusDeif

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 05:18 AM

View PostColdethel, on 10 October 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

Thank you. Please read this everyone. Stop whining about how your pet mech just got bigger. It should have been bigger in the first place. Now learn how to pilot it correctly.


I read it; not only was it false, but even if it were true, it would make half the mechs heavily disadvantaged.

These are giant walking robot tanks. If you'll observe modern tanks, they are -all- low to the ground with tiny forward facing profiles compared to their side or top-down profiles.

PGI making robot tanks with a huge forward facing profile for no other reason but to keep them proportional in volume is essentially ignoring how mechanized combat works. The playerbase already adapted -- by hardly playing the upsized manwalkers. Meaning a huge amount of game content goes unplayed. That's bad game design.

Most lights were pretty easy to kill before the upscale, in my experience. Completely unnecessary, un-asked-for change.

Edited by AeusDeif, 20 October 2016 - 05:19 AM.


#336 AeusDeif

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 05:51 AM

View Post762 NATO, on 06 October 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

Yes, PGI, we are still mad about this.

Cheers!


Still waiting to see if they meant it when they said 'this is not permanent or final'

They started with a small selection and then we got the rescale -a year later-

Quote

The limited focus of that initial approach soon became an all-encompassing evaluation of all ‘Mechs


Really don't want to wait another year to see if they learned anything from this.

Edited by AeusDeif, 20 October 2016 - 05:52 AM.


#337 762 NATO

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 11:17 AM

Only light I drive regularly anymore is an urbanmech. At least its fun! Pulled the oxide out of the dust pile for KMDDs in last event. Its back in there now. It might get out and take a stretch whenever GROG Corps gets back into FW.

#338 Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 12:14 PM

View Post762 NATO, on 20 October 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Only light I drive regularly anymore is an urbanmech. At least its fun! Pulled the oxide out of the dust pile for KMDDs in last event. Its back in there now. It might get out and take a stretch whenever GROG Corps gets back into FW.


You sir are a man! The most manliest of men!

#339 762 NATO

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 09:00 PM

Lulz.

Cheers!

#340 Artannis Veritieri

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 07:40 AM

Is there any merit from transitioning from the volumetric approach to the lore based technical readout approach? Theoretically every mech has a certain height that is in its Technical Readout. I play all tonnages but lights have been hit pretty hard by the rescale. That doesn't even account for the balance issues with IS vs Clan lights. Being able to survive the loss of a shoulder is a pretty big advantage, add in higher damage due to weapons weighing less, to a lesser degree a range advantage, coupled with equivalent speeds and equivalent armor. I can't bring lights to IS vs Clan scouting unless the idea is to avoid any and all contact...like a real scout...that has their match score penalized...for being a real scout.





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