776 replies to this topic

[Zolaz]

It wasnt a mech rescale as much as it was just quirks 2.0 make mechs larger edition.

[LordKnightFandragon]

What is the heat scale for MW3? I noticed just 3 blasts from those 3 MPL were enough to pretty much over heat you. There wasnt a long sustained window of firing, at least not while alphaing, and even chain firing runs you hot after awhile, doubly so for hot guns.

[Otto Cannon]

The rescale needed doing. There's no point complaining that wrongly sized mechs have been corrected, any feedback should be about what requirking can be done where it's needed.

Some mechs will always be a better shape than others because of how some guy once drew them many years ago without ever thinking it would matter. This game uses quirks to try and compensate for things like that, so that's where we have to focus on mech balance.

[Koniving]

DivineEvil, on 21 June 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

I'm not answering that. Not because I don't want, but because I can't. Too much rambling outlet and too little of a coherent opinion. Do you even realise I cannot do anything with that?

Quite disappointed. The entire thing is a very cohesive opinion that I spent 6 hours on, with examples, demonstrations, quoted sources, scientific demonstrations, the definition of "expanding" and how very clearly you couldn't be right about "expanding inward" by that alone followed by the actual explanation of Endo Steel from the Tech Manual where it literally states "The thinner walls would make the bones less stiff for the same diameterof bone, so endo-steel bones have to be noticeably larger."

Bigger.

Furthermore, I explained that I'm actually quite fine with large lights and the like. However, the overall scale of mechs on the high range are too big. If mechs barely if ever got past 15 meters tall, then most of our assaults and some of our heavies exceeding 15 meters is quite unacceptable. I'd be fine with -- and we already have after this rescale, lights of 12 meters tall. You also asked me to demonstrate where in the rescale we have lights as big as 45 and 50 tonners, and I gave it to you.

In fact, everything you asked for proof or examples of, you have been given.

I even gave weapon examples of how the source material -- if actually followed -- would significantly improve the game, time to kill (without quirks and with 1x armor/structure), and even reduce MWO-style alpha potential significantly with the high end being in the 20 to 30 damage range and the max possibly being in the 45 range if even.

Throughout the entirety of the post, I linked them all together with the theme that All of Battletech has to be included for it to work, not just what PGI picked and chose or tampered with.

I was even kind enough to give you the caveat that I misspoke, the highest damage potential was 19 times the source material in the form of the AC/2 which at one point could do 38 damage in 10 seconds. Though this is actually inaccurate, because the AC/2 had a period of time where its damage surpassed the potential of the AC/10, which could do 40 damage in exactly 10 seconds. Also, I made certain to emphasis a correction in your erroneous statement pointing out that damage starts at 0 seconds, because that's when the first shot fires, then reload, fire, reload, fire.

There was, at no point, 'rambling outlet'. Yes, there was some opinions attached to and supported by facts.

But it's okay. I give you a pat on the back for giving up and saving face.
I'm just a bit disappointed that you didn't even try to read it rather than "TL;DR. Too much rambling outlet."

[Bud Crue]

Koniving, on 23 June 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

Most articulate and expansive burn I've read in a long time

Very nice. A+

[cazidin]

LordKnightFandragon, on 21 June 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

What is the heat scale for MW3? I noticed just 3 blasts from those 3 MPL were enough to pretty much over heat you. There wasnt a long sustained window of firing, at least not while alphaing, and even chain firing runs you hot after awhile, doubly so for hot guns.

Not to go off topic but Russ did say in the Town Hall that they've fixed a coding issue and they can NOW implement a proper heat scale with penalties. Dude, if you had just told us a year or two ago we would've understood! Well, probably not but still!

[QuantumButler]

Hilariously inept and poorly thought out.

Typical PGI Quality.

[Jables McBarty]

I like it.

I'm of the opinion that tonnage and volume should be kept on an even ratio. I view it as a move to an inherently more balanced game, as upping in tonnage grants more firepower but larger hitboxes.

Obviously this has helped to balance certain discrepancies, like the 35-40t bracket jump and the 75-80t bracket jump (to the detriment of the 35 and 75 tonners).

Now that we have a realistic scale for tonnage:size, let's use quirk rebalancing to get everything on par.

I'm just baffled that this wasn't done before.

[Red Shrike]

cazidin, on 23 June 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

Not to go off topic but Russ did say in the Town Hall that they've fixed a coding issue and they can NOW implement a proper heat scale with penalties.

[Bradigus]

My overall verdict is that it's bad for most assaults, good for most lights. Most lights did need to be scaled up, but it seems the developers completely forgot to address quirks to compensate. They switched Oxides and Firestarters for Locusts. We are back to square one, a notoriously difficult to hit target that is not only highly mobile, but possesses considerable quirks to make it capable of fighting targets far above it's weight class all on it's own.

If the locust is staying at it's current size, reduce the mobility quirks to simply 10%. As it stands, netcode and server stability make your solid hits bounce all over the place.

Oh, and the Phoenix Hawk is too big for how fragile it is.

Edited by Bradigus, 23 June 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Myke Pantera, on 21 June 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

My verdict is mixed.
I am glad for the Nova. I understand the need to enlarge the Crab. But i am rather unhappy with how things went for the Wolfhound, Firestarter, Jenner and especially Panther. These one-alpha-to-the-side-and-youre-dead mechs will have a hard time surviving until the new heat scale mechanic that supposedly fixes Alphawarrior is out. Luckily I'll have the Phoenix Hawk to spend time with now. And I'll force myself to like it, no matter how good it'll turn out to be ^^

Wolfie, Firestarter, and Panther all work quite well with a STD250. Yeah you're slower, but you're a threat right up until they finish you off. Their overall hitboxes are fairly good still so once you take away getting instasploded they're viable.

The Jenner... well let's face it, it has 3 hitboxes. The legs and the MASSIVE CT you can hit from 360 degrees. Without it being small and with the new movement profile, it's got nothing going for it now IMO.

[BigBenn]

The verdict: after playing more and more, I think the re-scale was MUCH IMPROVED!!!

Besides, How can you argue with all 50 ton IS mechs being 95% the same size (in volume)??? Ditto for all weight classes.

Each mech has their positive/negative attributes. Learn them and use the good stuff to the fullest and minimize the negs the best you can.

[Jetfire]

The rescale needed to be step one. Next they need to watch and adjust quirks as needed but at least mechs are about the right size now for their mass.

Volume was the only sensible way to adjust scale on a baseline. Glad they didn't do something stupid like height or frontal cross sectional area.

[LordKnightFandragon]

cazidin, on 23 June 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

Not to go off topic but Russ did say in the Town Hall that they've fixed a coding issue and they can NOW implement a proper heat scale with penalties. Dude, if you had just told us a year or two ago we would've understood! Well, probably not but still!

I really cant wait to see what PGI does with that to.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the shrunk the Catapult to a Petsized Little Beast with this 65t and the two big Rocketcubes , and the Timberwolf ? nothing ..10t more has the timber (and massive weaponsarms!)+2 Misslecube like the Catapult,and the Mauler with this massive Launcher...=bigger ?

[Ramon B]

They've killed the Spider... it was my favourite mech, now is useless

[LordKnightFandragon]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 23 June 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

the shrunk the Catapult to a Petsized Little Beast with this 65t and the two big Rocketcubes , and the Timberwolf ? nothing ..10t more has the timber (and massive weaponsarms!)+2 Misslecube like the Catapult,and the Mauler with this massive Launcher...=bigger ?

They shrunk the Catapult to the height every mech shoulda come down to.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

you will perfetfair Hitboxes and Balance ...play with simple Geometric Figures (Cubes) not with exotic complex Models with many elements (each element with own dense, and Weight)..best play Faceball 2000...

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 23 June 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[Malleus011]

Overall? It had to happen, and it's good that it's finally complete.

However, the rescale has create some new balance issues, which will need to be addressed as data is collected.

[Koniving]

LordKnightFandragon, on 21 June 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

What is the heat scale for MW3? I noticed just 3 blasts from those 3 MPL were enough to pretty much over heat you. There wasnt a long sustained window of firing, at least not while alphaing, and even chain firing runs you hot after awhile, doubly so for hot guns.

Now that I'm aware of your question... (Quoting something, anything, would make me aware of them faster).

The heatscale for MW3 was "30" for just MW3, if you installed Pirate's Moon (the expansion) it ups to 40 (40 is also what MW2 has) (which is what you have in MWO with No skill tree and 10 SHS. Same lack of skill tree and 10 DHS gives you 50 and with each heatsink it goes up in addition to your cooling, something no other mechwarrior has ever done. Not even MechAssault. And no mechwarrior has had problems to this point; not even Mechwarrior 4 with its 60 threshold.).
Btw, 40 threshold looks like this in MWO + 20% threshold and cooling for a cold map. (Which is actually 50 threshold and 1.25/second cooling).

Heat Sim.

(Two things to note: One that starts very high in heat. Two, the heat scale that PGI had for much of 2012 including melting heatsinks and exploding ammo had come to an end that same patchday with this new overheat system... and three this is using 3x or greater weapon rates. MW3 only used 2 times greater.

Spoiler

And in what I was advocating, I wanted 1x damage rates across multiple shots for lasers, 1x rates with single shots for Gauss and PPCs [meaning one use per 10 seconds], and 2x damage rates across multiple shots [with risk to jam on all] for autocannons [risk much higher for std and LBX over UAC]). So even 1x armor/structure and 1x cooling would be viable with STD or DBL heatsinks without overheating quite like that -- except with PPCs where you should, or with rifle heat since it' d be all in one blow. Btw, missiles would be 1x and mech mortars 1x as well.

Edited by Koniving, 23 June 2016 - 11:26 AM.