151 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Mystere, on 28 June 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Why are people terrifed of significantly increased LRM velocity? It's not as if PGI is capable of creating complex mechanics to make LRMs better and "balanced" at the same time.

Sometimes, simple solutions are better.

The question is exactly the same as always. You increase it, stupid lurmers still whine, you increase it more, they still whine. How far are you willing to go just for the sake of crybabies? Because there is currently no reason to do anything for the sake of balance.

[Mystere]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

The question is exactly the same as always. You increase it, stupid lurmers still whine, you increase it more, they still whine. How far are you willing to go just for the sake of crybabies? Because there is currently no reason to do anything for the sake of balance.

How far? I'm willing to go as far as it would take for the top teams to start regularly using LRMs in relatively the same frequency as every other weapon they currently use. Then maybe, just maybe, dial it back just a bit after that.

Edited by Mystere, 28 June 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[totgeboren]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

You know this is about as stupid as it gets. I might as well start proving how ineffective IS MLs are while shooting them from 700m away. IS LBX10 is an amazing weapon ... at ~100m ranges, and even tho it has max range of 1620m nobody in their mind is going to use it at 1620m. You always have an option, nobody forces you to launch indirectly, but if you do your efficiency suffers, much like when shooting direct fire weapons beyond their optimal range.

It's not as stupid as it gets, because the main argument against LRMs is their indirect fire ability, and I wanted to show just how terrible that ability is.
They can work as direct fire weapons, but then they are again terrible, since just about every other weapon type is better for direct fire. Other weapons also tend to allow you to torso-twist, something an LRM that requires constant TAG lock does not.

Still, the versatility of the LRMs do allow them to keep up somewhat, since other weapons can only do something when they have los. The LRMs are bad with los, but can still do something sometimes even without los, so all in all you can still contribute to the game.

It's just that you get a bit fooled by the damage stats at the end of the fight. Like, I often get 600-800 dmg with my AWS with 3xALRM15+TAG, but I know that at most half of that damage was actually 'useful' damage, the rest was just turning the armour of arms and legs yellow.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mystere, on 28 June 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

How far? I'm willing to go as far as it would take for the top teams to start regularly using LRMs in relatively the same frequency as every other weapon they currently use. Then maybe, just maybe, dial it back just a bit after that.

Realistically they'll never do that because spread, i.e. no control over where you hit. Maybe if LRMs will be no heat, light-speed, insta-lock auto win button. If you want that, then as someone already suggested ... this.

[PhoenixFire55]

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

It's not as stupid as it gets, because the main argument against LRMs is their indirect fire ability, and I wanted to show just how terrible that ability is.

Terrible compared to what? The indirect ability of other weapons? Don't think so ...

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

They can work as direct fire weapons, but then they are again terrible, since just about every other weapon type is better for direct fire.

Yeah, give me another weapon that can put ~60 damage per shot into a mech 900m awawy for 15% heat of my heat bar without even aiming. Absolutely terrible.

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Other weapons also tend to allow you to torso-twist, something an LRM that requires constant TAG lock does not.

Artemis, LoS, fire and forget. AC2s, AC5s do not allow you any torso twisting either, not unless you want them to have their nominal DPS.

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Still, the versatility of the LRMs do allow them to keep up somewhat, since other weapons can only do something when they have los. The LRMs are bad with los, but can still do something sometimes even without los, so all in all you can still contribute to the game.

Everyone in PUGs playes for himself. When you got a group that has a bunch of spotters, narcs and a bunch of LRM boats, covered by a few bralwers, LRM suddenly become very very good in indirect fire too.

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

It's just that you get a bit fooled by the damage stats at the end of the fight. Like, I often get 600-800 dmg with my AWS with 3xALRM15+TAG, but I know that at most half of that damage was actually 'useful' damage, the rest was just turning the armour of arms and legs yellow.

As I've said a page ago, damage doesn't matter, especially so LRM damage. But same goes for raw numbers of laservomit damage, SRM/LBX damage or any damage so to speak. You can't really trace where everyone puts their damage, but the more damage you inflict the more likely you are to win. LRMs is high damage high spread weapon. Gauss is low damage (low DPS) low spread weapon.

There is a good enough balance between all weapons, only thing that creates disbalance is the way players behave in game, i.e. hide, poke, alpha. But even in this kind of gameplay you still see brawlers doing their thing, ballistic DPS mechs doing their thing, LRM boats doing their thing, it just take a little more brains than your average laseralpha.

The only thing I'd change for LRMs is allow them to be dumbfired into a set distance in a very high arc that'll allow them to clear buildings and rocks and hit targets behind them, so that they can be used as an improvised artillery. The accuracy will be bad of course, but you'll be able to force enemies out of cover and such. This way indirect fire actually becomes very useful, or rather actually becomes indirect.

[Navid A1]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

And I suggest you read the discussion you are posting in before making dumb posts.
Two pages back.

Yeah, that is usually the illusion new lrm players have. They don't often realize that what they are doing is spraying damage all over the place while their teammates are actually landing their shots where it counts. They occasionally get the finishing touch. When you get a kill, try to remember that. Well, at least you try to be among your team, sharing armor.

Also, Launching even from 400-450m gives the enemy near 3 seconds to react. If they don't get to cover after your first volley (they'll have 5.5 more seconds because of your cooldown)... that speaks loudly about their level of play, and its the enemy that is actually gifting you free damage, not because LRMs are good.

And don't forget the face time. During missile travel time, you need to face the target, you can not torso twist. You can not snapshot the enemy like you can with more efficient weapons like LPLs and ERPPCs.

You think spread with artemis and TAG are anything near good for LRM15?
go to testing ground and try to shoot a cataphract or centurion from its 10-11 o'clock and see how many (artemis+tag) shots it takes to take them out... don't be surprised if its upwards of 25 LRM15 volleys!

I use an Awesome-8R as an LRM boat. The thing just can not do under 600 damage. However when a kill takes around 500 damage and more than 40 seconds, you know that 1- the enemy was a potato and 2- LRM15s are so sub-par that even 4 of them took that long.

Also, one suggestion for your LRM boat. Downgrade to 4 LRM10s or 5s, and add 2 LPLs and you'll be surprised at how efficient an accurate they are... That is the problem!

[Navid A1]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Terrible compared to what? The indirect ability of other weapons? Don't think so ...

I would agree with you if we had a module that could deflect ballistic and laser rounds (look up radar deprivation module)

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Yeah, give me another weapon that can put ~60 damage per shot into a mech 900m awawy for 15% heat of my heat bar without even aiming. Absolutely terrible.

And again the this illusion. 4xLRM15 does not mean 60 damage to a mech. 10 missiles will miss and 20 will hit arms and legs. meaning that enemy gauss mech with a cherry red ST can put a few more shots into your unfortunate teammates.

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Artemis, LoS, fire and forget. AC2s, AC5s do not allow you any torso twisting either, not unless you want them to have their nominal DPS.

I would agree with you if LRM speed was 1000m/s
AC2/AC5s are nearly snapshot weapons that don't take 4 seconds to reach the enemy (in that 4 seconds you can pump about 75 pinpoint damage to your target blinding them in the process!

Also Artemis with Los does not give you fire and forget capability!

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Everyone in PUGs playes for himself. When you got a group that has a bunch of spotters, narcs and a bunch of LRM boats, covered by a few bralwers, LRM suddenly become very very good in indirect fire too.

That is why i see them used often in comp matches, right?... oh wait.

Edited by Navid A1, 28 June 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Yeah, that is usually the illusion new lrm players have. They don't often realize that what they are doing is spraying damage all over the place while their teammates are actually landing their shots where it counts. They occasionally get the finishing touch. When you get a kill, try to remember that. Well, at least you try to be among your team, sharing armor.

I don't really care about anything you say at this point, coz I just love the patronizing attitude. Considering I'm playing this game as long as you do and most likely far better than you do this is indeed very touching lol

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Also, Launching even from 400-450m gives the enemy near 3 seconds to react. If they don't get to cover after your first volley (they'll have 5.5 more seconds because of your cooldown)... that speaks loudly about their level of play, and its the enemy that is actually gifting you free damage, not because LRMs are good.

Yeah, target retention OP and beats 80% of cover. And even if its one volley its something like a 60 damage volley, about same as highest alpha laservomit does. Potato enemies work the same way for lasers and ballistics, you won't be able to dish out 500+ against evenly skilled opponents no matter what weapons you bring.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

And don't forget the face time. During missile travel time, you need to face the target, you can not torso twist. You can not snapshot the enemy like you can with more efficient weapons like LPLs and ERPPCs.

Oh yes I can. Artemis OP, plz nerf.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

You think spread with artemis and TAG are anything near good for LRM15?
go to testing ground and try to shoot a cataphract or centurion from its 10-11 o'clock and see how many (artemis+tag) shots it takes to take them out... don't be surprised if its upwards of 25 LRM15 volleys!

Why not. If I got time I'll actually make a video. But how about YOU do it for a change and actually prove smth to me?

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Also, one suggestion for your LRM boat. Downgrade to 4 LRM10s or 5s, and add 2 LPLs and you'll be surprised at how efficient an accurate they are... That is the problem!

No thanks. I like my mechs the way they are. If I want accuracy with LRMs I take Kintaro with 5x5s. FYI, I got a 13.0 KDR on that mech in over 100 matches.

[PhoenixFire55]

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

And again the this illusion. 4xLRM15 does not mean 60 damage to a mech. 10 missiles will miss and 20 will hit arms and legs. meaning that enemy gauss mech with a cherry red ST can put a few more shots into your unfortunate teammates.

Go and check the video. You can even count exactly how many missiles missed. Probably won't need more than fingers on two arms for that. Yeah, those were 10s, but 15s are that much worse that suddenly half the missiles start missing. And as you saw, or rather didn't see coz you don't seem to pay attention, LBX is on that mech for that very reason .. take out / crit open components.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

I would agree with you if LRM speed was 1000m/s
AC2/AC5s are nearly snapshot weapons that don't take 4 seconds to reach the enemy (in that 4 seconds you can pump about 75 pinpoint damage to your target blinding them in the process!

Well surprise surprise! LRMs do blind the target the same way, and LRMs are probably the only weapon that is just as effective in chain fire as they are in alphas. I'll put 60 in the first volley and 60 more in the second volley that reaches beyond low cover enemy hides behind due to target retention or just trajectory follow up.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

That is why i see them used often in comp matches, right?... oh wait.

And once again, you don't bother reading the discussion. Posts 102 and 104 specifically.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 28 June 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[totgeboren]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yeah, target retention OP and beats 80% of cover. And even if its one volley its something like a 60 damage volley, about same as highest alpha laservomit does. Potato enemies work the same way for lasers and ballistics, you won't be able to dish out 500+ against evenly skilled opponents no matter what weapons you bring.

Oh yes I can. Artemis OP, plz nerf.

I just have to ask, do you only play solo?

Also, Artemis only works when you have los, so the direct opposite of fire and forget.

[PhoenixFire55]

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

I just have to ask, do you only play solo?

I fail to see how is this relevant. QP queue, solo only. In a top EU competitive team as well if you must know.

totgeboren, on 28 June 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

Also, Artemis only works when you have los, so the direct opposite of fire and forget.

LoS is calculated by drawing a line between your mech and the target and checking if there are any obstacles. Doesn't matter if you target it, look at it or show it your big scary butt.

[Idealsuspect]

Funkin Disher, on 26 June 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Faster flight speed
Flatter flight path
LRM 10 spread for all launchers
1 ton ammo = 200 damage

Then we can tweak TAG, NARC, ART IV, BAP and modules around the base stats, rather than applying them like bandaids

Again people want balance a weapon with a mauler ... PGI do it already and they are alone to know what is good for MWO

Lrms should have a spread which increase with number of tubes, like we have now but with smaller difference between small to big launchers and a spread which increase with range...
But not sure PGI can write an equation like this they should hire Navid A1 if they need help.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 28 June 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Kubernetes]

Mystere, on 28 June 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Why are people terrifed of significantly increased LRM velocity?

Because we've seen it before. It took PGI what, two days, to roll it back.

[ExoForce]

Me nub, why LRM spread so big? Really?

[wanderer]

Quote

However, this is also true for all laservomit, because any semi-capable opponent will spread the laser (and especially so clan laser) damage by moving, torso twisting and jumping into his arms, legs and all torsoes. It is harder to spread pulse laser damage, but pulse lasers have much shorter range, and that is their balancing factor, just like much bigger heat is a balancing factor for pinpoint PPC.

Now, start using a weapon that automatically spreads that damage and can further be spread by the same methods.

And part of your damage will automatically miss the target entirely. And for that matter, LPLs pretty much define engagement range at this point.

Quote

Well, fyi, unlike all direct fire weapons, it is equally easy/difficult to take out stationary and moving targets with LRMs. And torso twisting works for damage spreading with direct fire weapons as well.

Incorrect. Faster targets will actually cause more missiles to whiff the target (and they tend to hit lower as well), especially if you're moving perpendicular to the launch.

[Navid A1]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

I don't really care about anything you say at this point, coz I just love the patronizing attitude. Considering I'm playing this game as long as you do and most likely far better than you do this is indeed very touching lol

I know you don't care. But i'll try. You may see reason. Who knows.
In your own post, you said this is the first time you are playing LRMs in 1.5 years... that is new LRM player in my book.

Yeah... you most likely play better than me. Far better than me.
Yet you don't know artemis don't give you fire and forget capability. The moment you lose lock, your missiles are wasted.

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yeah, target retention OP and beats 80% of cover. And even if its one volley its something like a 60 damage volley, about same as highest alpha laservomit does. Potato enemies work the same way for lasers and ballistics, you won't be able to dish out 500+ against evenly skilled opponents no matter what weapons you bring.

Omg... with these comparisons, why do i even bother to make you understand anything. all good... keep lurming man... they are good.

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Oh yes I can. Artemis OP, plz nerf.

You still think artemis gives you fire and forget capability?

There is more to that. Did you know if someone NARCs a target, a launcher with no artemis is more accurate that a launcher with artemis.

You must know that, right?.. because you play far better... right?

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Why not. If I got time I'll actually make a video. But how about YOU do it for a change and actually prove smth to me?

I actually did test it before i make the post, why don't you test it for yourself? its not like only I have access to training grounds!

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Go and check the video. You can even count exactly how many missiles missed. Probably won't need more than fingers on two arms for that. Yeah, those were 10s, but 15s are that much worse that suddenly half the missiles start missing. And as you saw, or rather didn't see coz you don't seem to pay attention, LBX is on that mech for that very reason .. take out / crit open components.

I say it again if you didn't get it the first time. out of 60, 10 will hit the ground and out of that 50 that hit the mech, 20 (if not more) will hit arms and legs
Oh, So now you need LBX to crit? (as if a single LBX is useful)

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Well surprise surprise! LRMs do blind the target the same way, and LRMs are probably the only weapon that is just as effective in chain fire as they are in alphas. I'll put 60 in the first volley and 60 more in the second volley that reaches beyond low cover enemy hides behind due to target retention or just trajectory follow up.

Sorry, LRMs don't stun-lock. Its 0.6-0.8 second volley length and the 5.5 second clear time.
Also... you seem to seriously think artemis gives you fire and forget.. don't you? (or trajectory follow up as you call it)
but what do i know... you just play far better than me.

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

And once again, you don't bother reading the discussion. Posts 102 and 104 specifically.

Yup i read that... i just smiled at how wrong you are.

lets see what you said:

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Realistically they'll never do that because spread, i.e. no control over where you hit. Maybe if LRMs will be no heat, light-speed, insta-lock auto win button. If you want that, then as someone already suggested ... this.

which is 200% wrong.
LRMs are not used in comp play because you can not win trades with it, the time you need to gain a lock and launch your missiles is enough for the enemy to puch a collective 80 alpha to your face.
Even if you manage to lauch your missiles unmolested, they will NEVER hit... because in comp play, effective use of cover is rule number 1 and everyone is decked with radar deprivation modules.

That is why even if LRMs had 100% CT tracking capability they still would not be used in comp play!

Actually what Mystere said in post 102 is the exact reason why LRMs is not in comp play... because missile travel time does not allow trading.
But again... you are so l337 and comp and amazing and play far better than me.


happy lurming i guess.

[GreenHell]

So what we're really asking for is the removal of Radar-Derp module, and changing ECM to the tabletop mechanics.

Right?

[ExoForce]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 June 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

..and LRMs are probably the only weapon that is just as effective in chain fire as they are in alphas.

Excuse me, but LRM chain fire is much more devastating then alpha. Fact. o7

[wanderer]

Quote

Because we've seen it before. It took PGI what, two days, to roll it back.

Name another weapon where adding 55 velocity would cause that many tears.

Please. Any of them. Mind you, an LRM launch at 120 velocity took over 8 seconds to hit maximum range. At 175 it was 5.7 seconds. Now it's 6.25 seconds. At 200 velocity it'd be a nice even 5 seconds to travel 1000m.

Or, in more sensible (500m) ranges, that's 4.16 (120 velocity), 3.12 seconds (160, current velocity), 2.85 seconds (175 velocity) to target. Not including lock-on time, of course. 200 velocity would mean it'd take 2.5 seconds to target.

Surely, three-tenths of a second was the end of the world as we went from 175-160, as much as that added 40 velocity would unmake worlds now.

[PhoenixFire55]

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

In your own post, you said this is the first time you are playing LRMs in 1.5 years... that is new LRM player in my book.[

You mean to tell me they changed how LRMs wor at some point over those 1.5 years?

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Yet you don't know artemis don't give you fire and forget capability. The moment you lose lock, your missiles are wasted.

lol .. Nope. You need to lose LoS as well. In most cases you lose lock because you lose LoS, or lose LoS even before you lose lock. When you clearly see a target you launched em at you can unlock it all you want.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

There is more to that. Did you know if someone NARCs a target, a launcher with no artemis is more accurate that a launcher with artemis.

I didn't beacuse I don't use non-Artemis LRMs nor plan to.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

I actually did test it before i make the post, why don't you test it for yourself? its not like only I have access to training grounds!

Links or it never happened.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

I say it again if you didn't get it the first time. out of 60, 10 will hit the ground and out of that 50 that hit the mech, 20 (if not more) will hit arms and legs
Oh, So now you need LBX to crit? (as if a single LBX is useful)

And I say it again, go and watch a posted video, then count exactly how many missiles missed. Out of 1500 fired maybe 30 or so. And I don't need LBX to crit, I use it because it crits. Mechs with open torsos / legs tend to disagree with your assesment of LBX usefulness as well.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Sorry, LRMs don't stun-lock. Its 0.6-0.8 second volley length and the 5.5 second clear time.
Also... you seem to seriously think artemis gives you fire and forget.. don't you? (or trajectory follow up as you call it)
but what do i know... you just play far better than me.[

IS LRMs, volley length? You shooting LRM20 out of a 6 tube hardpoint or smth?
It does, but follow up is an entirely different thing.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

which is 200% wrong.
LRMs are not used in comp play because you can not win trades with it, the time you need to gain a lock and launch your missiles is enough for the enemy to puch a collective 80 alpha to your face.

Oh yeah, comp play is always all about trades. Probably thats why we often see Atlases with AC20+SRMs, SRM Griffins and even Splatcats nowadays. Those mechs are so amazing at trades. Quad AC5 BlackWidows and Maulers are also amazing at trades with their 20 damage alphas.

I wonder what would have happened if MWOWC was being held on Polar instead of Canyons.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

... because in comp play, effective use of cover is rule number 1 and everyone is decked with radar deprivation modules.

LMAO ... oh yeah. I sense a great competitive player here. Yeah, everyone is using radar derp in comp play. Can't leave the hangar without it, absolute must have.

Navid A1, on 28 June 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Actually what Mystere said in post 102 is the exact reason why LRMs is not in comp play... because missile travel time does not allow trading.
But again... you are so l337 and comp and amazing and play far better than me.

happy lurming i guess.

lol ... What a surprise really, because there aren't like 10 posts in this thread clearly stating that same thing. But neither comp play nor PUGs are only winning trades, I do play better so I know it.

Happy Lurming 2U2. I'll make sure to put radar derp in all my mechs from now on, just in case I run into other competitive players. Would be such an embarassing moment if they lurm me and I don't have radar derp. Tsk tsk tsk, we can't allow that.

ExoForce, on 28 June 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Excuse me, but LRM chain fire is much more devastating then alpha. Fact. o7

No, its situational. If you know you have a very limited window of opportunity to fire at a target you alpha, and a one blob of LRMs from something like an LRM60 Awesome it truly devastating. Of course if you got a solid lock for an extended period of time you chain them.