66 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

TL;DR:
Rule of cool: 'Mechs bristling with various weapons look cool. Perfect convergence prevents this from happening. Therefore, prefect convergence should go so 'Mechs can look cool!


Have you ever read something where someone said like, that the would build his/her Stormcrow with something like 2xSSRM6+6xERSL+1xERPPC (completely made up) so he can kill Lights while having something which can put a hole on heavier 'Mechs? I'm sure you have or maybe even thought the same thing early on in your career as a MechWarrior!

You know that build sucks because it lacks synergy. Packing 12x cERSL would make you faster at legging Lights and you can brawl with heavier 'Mechs to come out as a victor (not the 'Mech - that would be weird). I don't play the TT game but I imagine that 12x cERSL wouldn't be that effective there because it just sprays an enemy 'Mech all over its components with small lasers due to the game mechanics. Carrying dual Gauss doesn't make you two times as effective with the GRs because each weapon is not guaranteed to hit the same component. It is therefore makes sense to carry a mixed of different weapons because there's a limit of same-weapon-synergy.

Right now I don't really want to talk about how to implement this "un-convergence" because people have created various threads to discuss that. It just came to my mind that weapon convergence creates this "synergy problem" which makes mixed builds worth far less.

What do you think about this? Do you want 'Mechs to carry mixed builds more because it's what makes sense by changing the game mechanics to support it?

[El Bandito]

Which is why I am advocating

[Kangarad]

I am not sure what you are saying....

is iit tht different weapon systems should not converge on the samempoint?
If so please go get a KGC0000 put some srms and lasers on it then go into the testing grounds and look at the onvergence, which would be lasers pinpoint on point and the srms will hit the area to your upper left of said point due to how the hardpoints are set up. which actualy means that you can not effectively fire both weapon systems and have to reaim between firing cycles.

^that is good, because it still leaves everything up to skill and reduces the ability to PPFLD alpha

however multiple weapons , like said dual gauss can be linked together ressulting in total weapon convergence which brings us back to Boating.

[PhoenixFire55]

Hit the Deck, on 30 June 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

Right now I don't really want to talk about how to implement this "un-convergence" because people have created various threads to discuss that. It just came to my mind that weapon convergence creates this "synergy problem" which makes mixed builds worth far less.

If you look at TT and stock loadouts for certain clan mechs there are already far far away from mixed loadouts. Because speed dictates range of engagement, which in turn means you can safely bring weapons of same range. So tbh mixed builds are trash and supposed to be trash in the first place ...

Hit the Deck, on 30 June 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

What do you think about this? Do you want 'Mechs to carry mixed builds more because it's what makes sense by changing the game mechanics to support it?

You can't force it no matter how many crutches and bandaids you add to the game. I've been among those who supported the implementation of manual convergence since forever, however it doesn't change anything in terms of mixed loadouts vs boating. If you look at warfare in general since pretty much stone age, it is always about specializing in doing something and doing it rather then being able to do everything poorly. It is same in MWO.

Still, manual convergence will greatly increase the skillcap for most weapons. LRMs, Streaks, SRMs, LBXs on the other hand won't notice much difference, because LBX for example doesn't converge in the first place. We'll probably see gameplay lean towards brawling quite a lot, which in turn can be compensated by removing all the bandaid nerfs from weapons like Gauss, PPCs, etc. Abominations like ghost heat and upcoming ghost heat 2.0 won't be needed as well. Most importantly TTK will increase for the majority of players.

[vocifer]

Not convergence... different projectile speeds and weapon cooldowns are the ones hurting "rainbow builds". ALL direct-fire weapons converge in the same spot!

No matter how you screw convergence up, it won't solve the problem. You still going to aim with your lasers and ac's differently. You will still shoot alphas of linked lasers. You will still lead targets differently with any weapon type and struggle with different cooldowns.

[Hit the Deck]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 June 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

If you look at warfare in general since pretty much stone age, it is always about specializing in doing something and doing it rather then being able to do everything poorly.

I know this, but this is a game. We can create any rules we like and shape the game in any way we want. That's the whole point

Regarding your range synergy, that's true and it's one of many types of synergy. I still think though that somehow perfect convergence is the most limiting to mixed weapon builds.

[Karl Streiger]

Hit the Deck, on 30 June 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

I know this, but this is a game. We can create any rules we like and shape the game in any way we want. That's the whole point

Regarding your range synergy, that's true and it's one of many types of synergy. I still think though that somehow perfect convergence is the most limiting to mixed weapon builds.

a carefully designed weapon concept could help either.
When you have the choice between ER-Large Laser or ER-PPC the choice should not be that simple.

The original tt didn't take this into account, but here in a FPS its important that each weapon has its roll.

The choice between weapons shouldn't be M4 or AK74 or ....bla bla blub. But Knife, Pistol, Sub, BattleRifle, MachineGun, Grenade Launcer, RPG

Want to blow things at range - really want to hurt:

• PPC - the Sniper huge blow when it hits...but you have to wait an eternity before the weapon recharges.
  
• Large Laser the DMR - fires faster in concentrated zaps of light. Wavelength is optimized for medium ranges (dealing most damage at 500-800m) - DPS is slightly improved in comparison to the PPC
  
• Medium Laser - the PDW of BattleMechs - really fast recharge in short zaps but not really much damage (imagine the mW2 pulse lasers)
  
• Small Laser - the Knife and Unitlity Tool - fire a low wave length beam as long as you press the button

Just as example - and of course you have to consider the damage/range/loadweight so when you have 14t equipment on one Mech and 14t on the other Mech the chances should be equal (not as they are currently in 1 vs 1 - ever tried a sniper build in a 1 on 1 when the other ran a brawler?)

---

In case of the Stormcrow in the OT:
The C ER PPC can cripple a Light or Medium with one hit (HUGE SPLASH) - consider a hit in the CT will rip a Mechs arms and legs off.
The SSRMs are a efficient weapon that save ammunition (not that dumb autolock mechanism) - they have additional critical damage chances and can soft kill a target - or use the hole blown by the ERPPC
finaly those ER Small Lasers - the constant beam can deliver damage when needed not much but very very accurate

so in combat - the Crow will try to hit her prey maybe twice with the ERPPC and it may need its speed to hide during the eternity of recharge. When the enemy is limping it closes for a strike of its SSRMs.
the Small Lasers finally will exploit the damage.

---

Edit:
Add a working S7 heat system and you wouldn't be able to fire all of those guns (or 12 ER-Small Laser in a volley) - of course you can use 2 ER-PPCs on your build - but the heat system will deny you to use both weapons in a single volley. So you may fire on PPC every 6-7 seconds. And hope that nobody catch up in the mean time. (you can also make the shooting more complicated = charge)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 30 June 2016 - 05:40 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Karl Streiger, on 30 June 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

a carefully designed weapon concept could help either.
...
Add a working S7 heat system and you wouldn't be able to fire all of those guns
....

I think PGI have already understood the concept of the former, not saying that it doesn't need further work though.

About the latter, adjusting the heat mechanism is indeed one way to prevent boating. The TT game has both "random component hit" and more punishing heat mechanism.

[MeiSooHaityu]

It's not just perfect convergence that hurts mixed builds, but also (IMO)...

Different ranges for weapons, differing velocities for projectiles, and harder to manage weapon groups for a mix of weapons and ranges. There are probably a couple more too I can't think about right now off hand. Convergence is a problem too, but there are a lot of things contributing in equal amounts.

As for fixed hard points, I'm not really a fan of the idea. I don't think it solves as much as some people assume. It just creates bigger rifts between chassis performance and prevents lesser chassis from performing as well as better designed chassis even within the same class.

If hard point restriction were ever a thing, I would expect a lot of powerful weapon based quirks would need to be implemented on many various chassis to help bring them up to par (especially hard point starved models). I wouldn't have an issue with that either, but I know some do.

[vocifer]

The only way to make "rainbow builds" viable, IMO, is separating the weapon groups completely.

Make it a generic FPS: you switch to a weapon group and you can only use that one at a time.
- Make a delay for switching ~0.5s.
- Limit the number of linked weapons per group ~3ML max or 1PPC/AC10, like that.
And there you go - you have your knife, sniper rifle and whatever else. And players will decide, whether they need 3,4 or more groups with the same 3ML pack when they can only use one of packs at a time, or maybe some different weapon group to carry as a backup will be useful.

Edited by vocifer, 30 June 2016 - 06:22 AM.

[Albino Boo]

The aim of the game is to win and the most common way to win is put as much damage as possible in the smallest area in the shortest possible time. If your desired build doesn't do that as well as another build then you wont win. Rainbow builds are less efficient at killing than boats, because they do nothing well. If you remove convergence people will still not run rainbow builds but boats streaks and lrms instead. Currently if you stay in the open you will get your ct shot out quickly by lpl spam, in the average engagement. If you nerf the laser convergence then you can stay in the open and spam lrms and use streaks to keep off the lights. Less convergence turns all weapons into sandpaper, so people will boat the most efficient sandpaper weapon.

[VorpalAnvil]

Hit the Deck, on 30 June 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

I think PGI have already understood the concept of the former, not saying that it doesn't need further work though.

About the latter, adjusting the heat mechanism is indeed one way to prevent boating. The TT game has both "random component hit" and more punishing heat mechanism.

Using the words "understand" and "PGI" in the same sentence. Lol...

[Karl Streiger]

Albino Boo, on 30 June 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

The aim of the game is to win and the most common way to win is put as much damage as possible in the smallest area in the shortest possible time.
Less convergence turns all weapons into sandpaper, so people will boat the most efficient sandpaper weapon.

well but that is a shite system. When the best killing weapon is the Gauss all peopls run the Gauss.
And when you drive this power creep to overdrive - you just need one Mech with a Gauss - maybe the Shadow Hawk?
Everything else would be worse.

This however is hardly something you really wish for - didn't Hawken use it? (I don't want to use Hawken in a negative sense, i think this game had its merit mainly because it doesn't get strangled by lore)
Oh and to get a rope by lore isn't bad either - because its' your fault when you put it around your neck.

sorry for the disgression

So you have to design the Mech or the weapons that cause synergy effects
not just speed - but the classical tin-opener+crit-seeker or sandpaper + killing blow

take for example Thug vs Awesome - the Awesome is the better killing machine at long range...while the Thug can at least compete until he gets closer for his SRMs.
At close range the Awesome can't beat the Thug because of minimal range.
Add the crit seeking ability of SRMs and every depends on the first shots and how they were placed.

But this is not the only side effect.
Take the Rain Bow build - when we really would have the different peaks instead of just 100% dmg up to effective range (say a single small laser deals as more damage as the large laser at 10m)
(don't find the topic - can someone provide)
So you can create your killing Light Deathstar with 4 Large Laser but when there are two lights with just small laser you may only be able to kill one before the other closes and turns your weapons ineffective.
Now it would have been better when you had just 3 Large Laser, 3 Medium and 4 Small Lasers.

However to working the ranges and reload time have to scaled according to speed - current range might not be enough.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 01 July 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[XtremWarrior]

Another thing that kills Mixed Loadout: Weapons Module.

I have no real problems with them, but it's true that as long as you use one, you'd better boat the weapon it enhances to maximize the benefits.

Take the OP's Stormcrow: you'd put a Cooldown Module on the PPCs and the SRMs? Now pick a 12 ERSLas Crow, put SLas Cooldown and Range and whoop!, you have 12 empowered weapons.

[Juodas Varnas]

XtremWarrior, on 01 July 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

Another thing that kills Mixed Loadout: Weapons Module.

I have no real problems with them, but it's true that as long as you use one, you'd better boat the weapon it enhances to maximize the benefits.

Take the OP's Stormcrow: you'd put a Cooldown Module on the PPCs and the SRMs? Now pick a 12 ERSLas Crow, put SLas Cooldown and Range and whoop!, you have 12 empowered weapons.

The entire module/skill system is complete garbage and getting rid of it completely would just improve the game.

[Red Shrike]

My "rainbow" Warhammer works just fine. PPCs for long range, Medium lasers for medium range, Machineguns for short range and an SRM for medium and short range. All 4 weapon types bound to a different group.

Edited by Red Shrike, 01 July 2016 - 12:31 AM.

[adamts01]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 June 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

You can't force it no matter how many crutches and bandaids you add to the game. I've been among those who supported the implementation of manual convergence since forever, however it doesn't change anything in terms of mixed loadouts vs boating. If you look at warfare in general since pretty much stone age, it is always about specializing in doing something and doing it rather then being able to do everything poorly. It is same in MWO.

I always liked the cof idea. Slow down and fire fewer weapons at once for more accuracy. If there was an accuracy penalty for firing 6 weapons at the sime time, it wouldn't make sense to boat anymore, in most cases.

I don't entirely buy that super specialized analogy either. So many bombers carry AA weapons. Helicopter gunships carry sidewinders as well as tow missiles if there's a chance of enemy air. The m4 is a giant compromise, decent range, fire rate, penetration, size and accuracy. The f-22 is another example. It's first missions were bombing runs where they provided their own ECM and air support. If anything, I'd say the military is moving to self sufficient smaller vehicles and units.

XtremWarrior, on 01 July 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

Another thing that kills Mixed Loadout: Weapons Module.

I have no real problems with them, but it's true that as long as you use one, you'd better boat the weapon it enhances to maximize the benefits.

Take the OP's Stormcrow: you'd put a Cooldown Module on the PPCs and the SRMs? Now pick a 12 ERSLas Crow, put SLas Cooldown and Range and whoop!, you have 12 empowered weapons.

Kind of like I said above, there needs to be a reason not to boat. Ghost Heat definitely helped, and it sounds like Ghost Heat 2.0 will take that a step further. I'm all for it. My current favorite build is a Warhammer 6D, 3ERLL, 2MPL, 4SPL. Crap for serious players, but fun and effective for scrubs in quickplay.

Juodas Varnas, on 01 July 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

The entire module/skill system is complete garbage and getting rid of it completely would just improve the game.

As far as weapons, yes. I do like the idea of mechs being able to tailor themselves for a special role, all we really need are special roles though....

Edited by adamts01, 01 July 2016 - 12:31 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Red Shrike, on 01 July 2016 - 12:30 AM, said:

My "rainbow" Warhammer works just fine. PPCs for long range, Medium lasers for medium range, Machineguns for short range and an SRM for medium and short range.

No small lasers

[Red Shrike]

Karl Streiger, on 01 July 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

No small lasers

No small lasers in favor of maxing out the armor.

Edited by Red Shrike, 01 July 2016 - 12:32 AM.

[LordNothing]

the point of a mixed build is to have a mech that can do battle in as many situations as possible, as opposed to situational builds who have to in various situations stay hidden in cover until the situation it was built for materializes (which may never happen). so while the mixed build is fairly consistently dealing damage as battlefield situation changes, that situational mech is more or less doing nothing.

convergence really doesnt play into it at all, because you usually dont use all your weapons all the time, just the ones relative to your current situation. i might stick a few lerm tubes on my highlander iic and then end up not using them while i brawl with my uac10s and er medium lasers. sometimes the battle goes the other way and i end up lerming for the first 5 minutes (then when i run out of ammo fix bayonets and charge). the odd pairing of srms and (not er) ppcs usually have you using the ppcs outside of 250 and the srms the rest of the time. alpha strikes are usually to be avoided and instead you can use the best tool for the job. you try to use everything at once you just overheat and die.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 July 2016 - 12:40 AM.