101 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

Moldur, on 08 July 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yeah, but we're talking about MWO. It would be cool for a mechwarrior game with a myriad of different kinds of encounters and engagements where those advantages mattered more, but it is all just imagination in MWO. For the large majority of engagements, of which there is little variation in the 12v12 deathmatch among a dozen maps and 3 modes, a 65 ton Ice ferret is worthless compared to the other options available.

Stormcrow... 65-ton Stormcrow

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 08 July 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

It was never intended to fully replace the TBR... It was designed to replace TBRs in stars featuring lighter mechs. And in that sense, it did achieve its primary design goal. It also achieved its secondary goal of providing heavier stars with scouting and flanking capabilities.

"The Inability of the Mad Cat heavy Omnimech to keep up with the rest of its Star mates in running battles was of such concern to Clan Wolf's leaders that they ordered their technicians to develop a new design to supplement and eventually replace it. The Linebacker, so named because it's unusual hunched over torso is reminiscent of the hulking players of ancient North American-rules football, was the result of their efforts."


Overview,
TRO 3055

It very clearly states replace the Timby, so it kind of failed in that regard.

[Moldur]

ScarecrowES, on 08 July 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

Stormcrow... 65-ton Stormcrow

Whatever lets you sleep at night. Cheers.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 08 July 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

"The Inability of the Mad Cat heavy Omnimech to keep up with the rest of its Star mates in running battles was of such concern to Clan Wolf's leaders that they ordered their technicians to develop a new design to supplement and eventually replace it. The Linebacker, so named because it's unusual hunched over torso is reminiscent of the hulking players of ancient North American-rules football, was the result of their efforts."


Overview,
TRO 3055

It very clearly states replace the Timby, so it kind of failed in that regard.

It does also specifically state it's star mates, which were lights and mediums - and running battles. And since it DID replace Timbies in lighter stars, it kind of succeeded in THAT regard, eh?

Moldur, on 08 July 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Whatever lets you sleep at night. Cheers.

Accuracy matters.

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 08 July 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

It does also specifically state it's star mates, which were lights and mediums - and running battles. And since it DID replace Timbies in lighter stars, it kind of succeeded in THAT regard, eh?



Accuracy matters.

In a limited fashion yes, I would say it succeeded in supplementing it, not an out right replacement.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 08 July 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

In a limited fashion yes, I would say it succeeded in supplementing it, not an out right replacement.

See, everyone can win in a war of semantics

[Agent1190]

ScarecrowES, on 08 July 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Just a note here... you're comparing merely free tonnage here, but you're ignoring beneficial fixed equipment. In this case, the Linebacker gives you 4 DHS in the engine on every variant as fixed equipment. That takes away from free tonnage, but still contributes to offensive equipment. Effective equipment tonnage (which includes free tonnage and any locked offensive equipment) is better for comparison. After all, it's not like you're going to load every ton on a mech with weapons.

So in such a case, the Linebacker gets 21.5 effective equipment tonnage to the Stormcrow's 22.5 effective equipment tonnage. Same speed, same equipment weight, same possible builds, but smaller and more armor/internals. The Linebbacker also has better hardpoint locations, especially for the torsos.

Very true - I did overlook that aspect of the Mech.

[davoodoo]

ScarecrowES, on 08 July 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Just a note here... you're comparing merely free tonnage here, but you're ignoring beneficial fixed equipment. In this case, the Linebacker gives you 4 DHS in the engine on every variant as fixed equipment. That takes away from free tonnage, but still contributes to offensive equipment. Effective equipment tonnage (which includes free tonnage and any locked offensive equipment) is better for comparison. After all, it's not like you're going to load every ton on a mech with weapons.

So in such a case, the Linebacker gets 21.5 effective equipment tonnage to the Stormcrow's 22.5 effective equipment tonnage. Same speed, same equipment weight, same possible builds, but smaller and more armor/internals. The Linebbacker also has better hardpoint locations, especially for the torsos.

Also remember that you need to add half ton of armor to max linebacker

On the other hand
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3585b145eb885cf
23 tons of whatever you want and best possible hardpoint locations you can get.

And then 65 ton heavy mech sporting firepower lower than 50 ton medium isnt a great endorsement and its completely outlcassed by its 65 ton competition the ebj which can put as much as 29 tons of equipment and 3 tons of dhs for a total of 32 tons of equipment, nearly 50% more while still moving at considerable 87kph, 18kph or 5m/s or 17% slower.

Edited by davoodoo, 08 July 2016 - 12:48 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

davoodoo, on 08 July 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

Also remember that you need to add half ton of armor to max linebacker

On the other hand
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3585b145eb885cf
23 tons of whatever you want and best possible hardpoint locations you can get.

And then 65 ton heavy mech sporting firepower lower than 50 ton medium isnt a great endorsement and its completely outlcassed by its 65 ton competition the ebj which can put as much as 29 tons of equipment and 3 tons of dhs for a total of 32 tons of equipment, nearly 50% more while still moving at considerable 87kph, 18kph or 5m/s or 17% slower.

Who runs max armor? Beyond a certain amount, you're just wasting tonnage - hence "efficient armor," which the Linebacker mounts already as stock.

Beyond that, why are so many people hung up on the exact weight of weapons. If the weight of weapons a mech could carry was the only measure of ability of a mech, noone would ever take mediums or lights at all. And yet, usually the number of folks in the medium and light queues are equal to the number of the folks in the heavy and assault queues.

Let's look at it objectively. The Linebacker is going to be able to mount loadouts that are the same as the ones in the Stormcrow, while being equal in speed and smaller in size while carrying the amount of armor and internals ten extra tons affords. If the Stormcrow is a top tier (or near) mech with its particular qualities, why is the Linebacker worse for having the same qualities that make the Stormcrow what it is, and then adding other good qualities to it? If Stormcrow is top tier, why is Linebacker trash tier for being better than it?

And let's look at other 65-tonners. You're looking at a mech that should easily run builds that the Catapult is famous for, while doing so at 20-30kph faster. The Cat has seen a massive resurgence since it got shrunk to appropriate size. Would a Catupult-A1 or Butterbee somehow perform worse if it was running 20kph faster? And the builds that make the Cat good (and so the Linebacker), the EBJ is incapable of doing.

So better than a Catapult, and better than a Stormcrow, but somehow trash tier. Doesn't add up.

[Clownwarlord]

390 xl ... contemplating on buying my first mech pack of the year.

[Trauglodyte]

Agent1190, on 08 July 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Before you post - please leave the "OMG PGI GET'S NONE OF MY MONEY TILL I SEE X FEATURE" out of this thread. I want to limit this to the Mech's potential performance, not the company's performance.

So, do you "Linebacker?" It's a 65 ton Stormcrow with 17.5 tons of pod space (16.5 with Max Armor). BTW, the Stormcrow has just over 22.5 tons with max armor. FF and Endo locked, no Jump Jets, and (at first glance) a good spread for fixed armor and structure slots, so you should be able to use max ballistics in side torsos.

I just worry about getting a Mech that trades pod space for speed (remember the Ice Fridge) - sure it's faster, but does it make up for the 10-11 tons of lost pod space (Ebon Jag has 28 free tons with max armor)?

Thoughts?

I look at it like this:

• Do you like Clan mechs?
  
• If you don't, you don't buy it. If you do: Do you need/want a(nother) 65 ton mech?
  
• If you don't, you don't buy it. If you do: Does it offer you want you need/want in a mech?

My only real issue with the Linebacker, beside the name, is that the strong point in the mech is the speed. But, what exactly does it going 104 kph, with Speed Tweak, really offer you? In this game, you're either going 50-60 kph, you're going 90-100 kph, or you're going 135+ kph. If you're anywhere between those numbers, you're wasting tonnage. So, at the heart of the matter is the question:

• What good is that speed and, regardless of that answer, do you have the disposable income to allocate to it without feeling bad or pinched?

To me, it is nothing more than a 65 ton Shadowcat w/o ECM and JJs. They look similar, the speed is going to be similar, and the load-outs will be similar. So, if you like the Douche Cat, you'll like the Douchebacker.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 July 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[dervishx5]

Anyone else feel the mech would be more suited if the legs connected near the back of the torso rather than directly underneath it? I feel it should be more Adder-looking, would give it more uniqueness too with the geometry.

Edited by dervishx5, 08 July 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

NeoCodex, on 08 July 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

DOA.

Dead on Announcement?

Yup... that sounds right.

[ScarecrowES]

dervishx5, on 08 July 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

Anyone else feel the mech would be more suited if the legs connected near the back of the torso rather than directly underneath it? I feel it should be more Adder-looking, would give it more uniqueness too with the geometry.

Not sure if that's possible. Animation requirements limit how the legs can be positioned relative to things they could clip through while animating. The arm-hip position on the Linebacker is more or less the default position for MWO mechs. The Adder has the advantage of having the arms spread more, and so are less affected by the same clipping issues.



With the Linebacker having to reach a proper 100kph running animation, you're going to have to keep the arms well away from the legs - pretty much necessitates that they be oriented as vertically close to twist axis (mech centerline) as possible.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 July 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[dervishx5]

Yeah I guess. Should probably be shorter though. We'll see what the model looks like.

[ScarecrowES]

dervishx5, on 08 July 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

Yeah I guess. Should probably be shorter though. We'll see what the model looks like.

They can have it start at a more squated standing state like the Mad Dog and Timberwolf. There is plenty of room with those legs to squat a bit. But even if it stood upright, it's going to fair no worse than the Ebon Jag. Remember the current stance for that mech is taller than it was originally, and it's still got the second shortest torso height in the heavy category. The Linebacker can't be any taller than the EBJ unless it stands very straight on its legs - so I don't think it will suffer too badly.

[dervishx5]

If they get the geometry right it actually might actually be an underrated mech like the Rifleman. I'll withhold judgement for now because so many mechs have been "DOA" before but turn out to be pretty playable.

And it was either this or what, the Crossbow? Thank [insert deity] we didn't get the Crossbow.

[ScarecrowES]

Realistically, even though our perception tells us this thing is standing tall - since most of us know the Linebacker in its TT form - it really stands quite squat already.




That's not a cscale comparison, obviously, but is just there to illustrate how far the legs are squatted compared to other reverse-joint mechs. It's already squatted more then either the Mad Dog or the Catapult, both of which had their stances lowered during the rescale.

However, from those two mechs especially we can get an idea of the scaling we'll be talking about later. Similar basic side profile to the Mad Dog, but a shorter torso height, and much more dense... arms brought tight to the body and pushed forward. More squatted than the Catapult at the same weight, but with a much more dense and compact build? Anyone wanna tell me how this mech isn't going to be absolutely tiny compared to the rest of the heavies?

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 July 2016 - 04:57 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

THIS is my best guess at scaling. Since we can reasonably use volume as a reference now, as well as base comparisons to mechs with similar volumetric features. I think this is a pretty fair guess.



Again, just a guess, but a well-educated one.

[Clownwarlord]

I decided to purchase the mech pack. As stated it looks like it would be a mech for side flanking. Or mobility platform. Some builds I am thinking of are 2 erppcs (1 each side torso) and back up by medium lasers in the arms. Other ideas would be splat-backer. Named for 6 srm pods I will try and smack in with speed to run around my enemy and splat them.

I am hoping it will be shrunk like the catapult because of its bulk in the side torsos and arms.