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Upcoming Faction Play Round Table


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#221 TWIAFU

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 03:53 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 24 July 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:


This begs the question:

Is FP just another game mode or is this *THE END GAME MODE"

If its "just another mode" then the post above makes sense (though I can hear someone at pgi not being happy about missed sales).

If it is to be an EndGame Mode then we should not be worrying about new players other than how to get them stoked to join the FP fray once they've met some minimum criteria.

Maybe if queue times were shorter I wouldn't feel this way, but waiting 15 minutes to play a 30 minute game that ends up being 15 minutes because 2-3 players on your team are not ready to play FP is frustrating. There are people that really want FP games to matter, to mean something, left to watch some pilot run into the enemy firing line 4 times in 8 minutes.

If FP is the EndGame, there needs to be an "attunement" phase like in WoW or any other game. Whether this is merely hitting certain benchmarks before getting into the FP bucket or a new mode that eases players into FP I don't know.


Well put my friend and this question of CW's purpose as End Game or QP with respawn MUST be answered before any of us waste any more breath and effort in making it better.

#222 Falconer Cyrus

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 03:55 AM

According to Games Theory (or how is it called in english?) a game should have:
- a goal
- possibilities
- obstacles

Lets start from the begginning. What the goal of
a) a player?
B) a unit?
c) a faction?

#223 MovinTarget

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 04:23 AM

View PostTWIAFU, on 24 July 2016 - 03:53 AM, said:


Well put my friend and this question of CW's purpose as End Game or QP with respawn MUST be answered before any of us waste any more breath and effort in making it better.


If FP is endgame then One simple way to filter usage is to simply prevent dropping in any mechs that do not at least have basic efficiency. This accomplishes 2 things:

1) you cannot drop in mechs you can't level (i.e. trial mechs)
2) you cannot level mechs in FP (until you you've dropped in them enough in QP to get familiar with them and get a respectable loadout).

so #1 gives players a *MILD BAR* to clear before doing faction play. If you can't acquire 4 mechs and get them basic'd you might not be ready for the endgame mode.

#2 reduces the chances of players using the endgame mode as their personal mass leveling mechanism. As inefficient as it is, don't tell me people didn't load up 3 vipers and kodiak this weekend hoping to get oodles of XP...

Again, this is all moot if FP is *not* EndGame mode.

And I agree with TWIAFU, you can't start talking buckets and population balance until you address for whom. if this is end game mode:

1) its not for leveling
2) teamwork is assumed
3) its hard mode not easy
4) rewards should reflect the challenge

#224 Bud Crue

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 04:44 AM

Many above are proposing a "fix" to the problem of low population by merging the factions. I totally disagree with this or at least I don't see the proposed fix as helping. Just combining the factions into clan v IS does not address any of the underlying problems that have lead to low population.

My observation is that the overall problem of low population is due to:
-the lack of lore based immersion or interaction,
-the tournament drawing off a lot of the best players/'drivers' of the CW population and most importantly
-the changes brought forth by P3 (specifically long tom and the unit tax).

All/Any of these issues need to be addressed first if you want to draw folks to play the mode. Once those fixes are made get buy in from the community with a bit of a good will campaign (events focused on the new and improved CW that you the players help make happen, etc.) and then ADVERTISE the new and improved mode outside of the current community (and not with an utterly misleading video).

Merely combining the factions is going to help wait times so we can keep playing as is. I have difficultly believing that any one is going to get real excited about that and come rushing back to play because of it.

#225 MovinTarget

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 04:53 AM

Great points Bud! I would add that people left because they weren't adequately prepared or frustrated with the experience of disparate skill levels. The latter would be really hard to gauge and resolve, addressing the former *might* help though...

#226 Pihoqahiak

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 05:06 AM

The below are suggestions and feedback that I emailed to PGI and posted here on the forums over a month ago, but thought I would repost in this forum thread since it seems more appropriate now:

"game mode improvements, there are several I would like to address. The first of which being Long Tom Artillery. I will say that it was both fun and entertaining to see the effects of it the first few times, but then the grim reality of its effect on the game and player base became quickly apparent. The main problem it causes is that it chases players away from queuing on a planet where the enemy has Long Tom Artillery active. It can’t be overstated just how much of an issue that really is for promoting a thriving Faction Warfare environment. Another aspect of where the Long Tom falls short in terms of game play, is that it is out of the player’s hands since it is automated. Adding facets to the game that players can use and control really helps put them more into the action and gets them more involved in the battle. The more involved the players are, the better the experience will be. My suggestion for this ties in with another idea for improving Faction Warfare. This is a bit more complex and would no doubt take a fair amount of time and work to accomplish. Shifting Quick Play matches to Faction Warfare matches in a Raiding/Defending Supply Line mode of 8 vs. 8 matches would help bring the majority of the player base into the immersion of Faction Warfare, which is really important to keep a player base interested and active in a game like MW:O. Both Assault Mode and Conquest Mode from Quick Play could be easily adjusted into a Supply Line Raid/Defense scenario, as well as Domination Mode, a supply cache would give an excellent reason to want to dominate an area on the map. Instead of raising or lowering a faction’s Intel like Scouting missions, it would raise and lower a faction’s Supply. The effects of Supply could be things like decreasing dropship timers (or increasing the enemy dropship timers), improved base and/or dropship turrets (perhaps even having some base defenses rebuilt on hold territory if your faction has high levels of supply for that planet), and the final Supply unlock should be a changed version of Long Tom Artillery. Long Tom Artillery should be changed to a free use of Artillery Strike for each player on the team, whether they have that consumable equipped or not. It’s tough to decide if it should be a free use per mech in each player’s drop, or just one free use per player overall during the match. I’m leaning towards starting with one per player overall per match and having those Artillery Strikes use a separate timer from the consumable item strikes. Free uses of other consumables could be potential benefits to having high Supply amounts from Raiding missions as well.

Eliminating Quick Play would not appeal to all players of course. I feel there does need to be a Quick Play style of play available in the game, and I believe it is most likely already in the works. Solaris can easily accommodate both leaderboard/competitive avenues of play, and also have more casual styles of play similar to what Quick Play offers now. Many PvP games have ranked and unranked play available to them and Solaris could incorporate that as well.

Lastly, I feel there could be some improvements of the rewards offered from Faction Play that could be implemented to attract more players into the mode. Top performers in unrewarded areas of game play and the player base could be given minor rewards as currently, only a very small portion of the player base will ever see any rewards (outside of rank achievements and match earnings) from Faction Play. There are many options for this sort of system. Weekly or monthly leaderboards for Scouting (and Raiding/Supply missions if implemented) could give small rewards to the top leaderboard players since you often have players from small units that will never gain tags on a planet contribute significantly to the conquest or defense of a planet through Scouting missions. Similarly, small rewards for Freelancer pilots on the top of their leaderboard could be a good idea."

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 24 July 2016 - 05:07 AM.


#227 DaFrog

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 05:14 AM

View PostAvenger 1337, on 24 July 2016 - 02:12 AM, said:

Another thing:

Why dont you give new players 8 fully equipped mechs (meta builds, modules, skills etc..) of each class and side?
or even 16?
  • starting an mwo account is so painful you have no idea. trail mechs !!!
  • you could remove trail mechs completely
  • "jump start" new players
  • players have a fair chance to participate with equal equipment (not bad equpment and no experiance)
  • give them something of what they can buy more of. make some moneys yay Posted Image
I'm almost 100% certain you lost like 50% of the new players to that trail mech ****.



No. No. GOD NO !!!!!

Enough laser vomit srm fireball quad uac 10s bullcrap.
ENOUGH !

Battletech and to a lesser extent Mechwarrior was about BUILDING ! Making your own mental machine.
You can't shoot straight, I can live with that. You can't drive straight ? That too I can handle.
You're going to show up in a new account with a laser vomit Black Knight or Black jack ?

HELL NO !

Edited by DaFrog, 24 July 2016 - 05:14 AM.


#228 MovinTarget

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 05:36 AM

View PostDaFrog, on 24 July 2016 - 05:14 AM, said:

No. No. GOD NO !!!!!

Enough laser vomit srm fireball quad uac 10s bullcrap.
ENOUGH !

Battletech and to a lesser extent Mechwarrior was about BUILDING ! Making your own mental machine.
You can't shoot straight, I can live with that. You can't drive straight ? That too I can handle.
You're going to show up in a new account with a laser vomit Black Knight or Black jack ?

HELL NO !



yeah the more I think about this.... yeah no...

"Well crap, the free mechs I got on this account just got nerfed... time to start another account with new free mechs in the current meta!"

took me a while to get there but the old programming addage persists: "Ill-conceived features are doomed to exploitation"

#229 DaFrog

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 05:37 AM

Forgot to mention:
Green
Regular
Veteran
Elite

Should be a mention that if you are in a Green or Regular team ( 12 men pug for instance ) and you are about to drop on a planet currently defended by an Elite unit ( NS ), then you should be given the opportunity to abort invasion. Or in defence speak, fall back and regroup, before the fight even takes places.

It handles the DCs, AFKs and ODed in the first minute of a match. You decided to drop nonetheless, face the music.


Elite units will likely moan about this: they won't be playing nearly as many matches as they'd like. But it will limit the seal clubbing and if a match takes place, both parties know fully what they are getting into. As opposed to the 'oh crap, not those guys' attitude once the timer counts down.

#230 MovinTarget

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 05:50 AM

View PostDaFrog, on 24 July 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

Forgot to mention:
Green
Regular
Veteran
Elite

Should be a mention that if you are in a Green or Regular team ( 12 men pug for instance ) and you are about to drop on a planet currently defended by an Elite unit ( NS ), then you should be given the opportunity to abort invasion. Or in defence speak, fall back and regroup, before the fight even takes places.

It handles the DCs, AFKs and ODed in the first minute of a match. You decided to drop nonetheless, face the music.


Elite units will likely moan about this: they won't be playing nearly as many matches as they'd like. But it will limit the seal clubbing and if a match takes place, both parties know fully what they are getting into. As opposed to the 'oh crap, not those guys' attitude once the timer counts down.



I am not entirely opposed to this. Elite teams should be used where they are needed. Not saying I am personally elite, but I have found myself apologizing for a clubbing neither side actually wanted.

#231 C E Dwyer

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:21 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 23 July 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:



To vote Loyalists must also be actively playing, not dormant alts that can be logged onto at opportune times just to manipulate votes.

I completely agree, I was trying to give an over view, details like what counts as active, is something that would have to be thrashed out by the design staff, though obviously you have to take part in F.W, at what level qualifies you to be active is really only something that can only be decided if this was the chosen way to go.

#232 slide

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:24 AM

P4r4gon mentioned this so I will put it here (whats the code for a spoiler?)


Smaller drop group sizes for low population times (Ie Oceanic)

As someone from Australia who plays during the quietest period of FP I am frankly fed up with the effort it takes to kick off a match. Weekday matches are almost non existent and those that do kick off are often the same people playing each other over and over. Part of this problem is because of the requirement for 24 people to play a match can't be met. Even combining all factions to just IS v Clan wouldn't change the queues all that much from what we have now. Other time zones have similar issues as well, but not as bad.

I can't tell you how many times I have sat either solo or with a group waiting for player 12 to show up on either my team or the opposition (it's a lot). Only to see one side get a ghost drop (or 3) whilst you sit there waiting. It is frustrating beyond belief and is a situation which exacerbates the low population issue even further. Fewer people make the situation worse in a continuing downward spiral until there will basically, be no one left.

Proposal: (Invasion matches)
Minimum match requirement 4v4

Instead of the matchmaker waiting for 12 players to queue a match I propose this be reduced to a lance ( a lance can be pugs or group). Once a lance is in the queue the 10 minute timer starts. As the timer counts down additional lances for both sides may enter the queue. At the end of the 10 minutes a match will kick off with however many lances are queued for an even match between sides.
Matches will consist of:
4v0 (ghost drop)
4v4
8v8
12v12

If you are the next lance in the queue but don't get a match your lance immediately kicks off a new 10 minute timer.

The simple reason for doing this is to increase the frequency with which matches kick off. More matches means more fun an ultimately more players. However the varying match sizes I think will shake up the staleness of the mode which will increase interest all by itself.

Map sectors:
With the ability to drop more but smaller teams it may prove that some enterprising groups can some how exploit that to zerg a planet to 50% even quicker. To avoid this I feel we would need to divide each current sector into thirds (or have 39 sectors). Each win will grant 1,2 or 3 pieces of the sector depending on the size of the match 4,8,12. This will encourage more people to queue up and reward bigger groups more than little ones. Sync dropping will be allowed even encouraged but beware your carefully crafted 12 man could be broken up by another group entering the queue before yours (no queue jumpers though, first in first out). Of coarse this could lead to some interesting queue tactics but that is a topic for another discussion.

Often times the queues on planets end up being multiples of 12 with a few extras here and there. Those extras either have to wait for matches to finish, in the hope of pushing into a pug group or get bypassed by a 12man. This can lead to some very long (30min+) wait times even in active queues. With my proposal the small groups have a better chance of a drop (even if it's a ghost) and people entering FP are more likely to stay and join a waiting 2-3 extras than they are now because they know that finding another 8 people to get a match is virtually impossible.

I know that any major updates to FW are going to be a long time coming (new maps, modes etc), I hope that what I suggest wouldn't be to difficult to code (I am no programmer) as a lot of the tools are already in the game. But we need to do something, soon, to enliven the mode otherwise those few of us still playing, and hopefully encourage a few more to join.

#233 C E Dwyer

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:33 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 24 July 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Many above are proposing a "fix" to the problem of low population by merging the factions. I totally disagree with this or at least I don't see the proposed fix as helping. Just combining the factions into clan v IS does not address any of the underlying problems that have lead to low population.

My observation is that the overall problem of low population is due to:
-the lack of lore based immersion or interaction,
-the tournament drawing off a lot of the best players/'drivers' of the CW population and most importantly
-the changes brought forth by P3 (specifically long tom and the unit tax).

All/Any of these issues need to be addressed first if you want to draw folks to play the mode. Once those fixes are made get buy in from the community with a bit of a good will campaign (events focused on the new and improved CW that you the players help make happen, etc.) and then ADVERTISE the new and improved mode outside of the current community (and not with an utterly misleading video).

Merely combining the factions is going to help wait times so we can keep playing as is. I have difficultly believing that any one is going to get real excited about that and come rushing back to play because of it.


These are very fair points, and I agree, and I think a forced merging of factions would have the reverse effect, I think some people are more attached to their faction than some people are prepared to believe.

View PostMovinTarget, on 24 July 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

Great points Bud! I would add that people left because they weren't adequately prepared or frustrated with the experience of disparate skill levels. The latter would be really hard to gauge and resolve, addressing the former *might* help though...


This also has a big effect on population and I think went a long way in destroying the new steam player numbers, they saw free mech bays, tried to play F.W with Trial mechs and poor builds, and were farmed hard, and gave up,the ship has sailed as far as that goes, and I've always been against restricting choice, but maybe there should be a limiter on F.W.

Easist way to implement seems to me, a certain number of Q.P matches, clearly it has to be no fewer than 200 and probably more, or no trial mechs in F.W or to compromise no more than two trials, and the other two mechs must be at least fully elited.

This of course means P.G.I must be willing to expand on the number of free Mech bays new accounts get.

#234 C E Dwyer

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:36 AM

View PostDaFrog, on 24 July 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

Forgot to mention:
Green
Regular
Veteran
Elite

Should be a mention that if you are in a Green or Regular team ( 12 men pug for instance ) and you are about to drop on a planet currently defended by an Elite unit ( NS ), then you should be given the opportunity to abort invasion. Or in defence speak, fall back and regroup, before the fight even takes places.

It handles the DCs, AFKs and ODed in the first minute of a match. You decided to drop nonetheless, face the music.


Elite units will likely moan about this: they won't be playing nearly as many matches as they'd like. But it will limit the seal clubbing and if a match takes place, both parties know fully what they are getting into. As opposed to the 'oh crap, not those guys' attitude once the timer counts down.

I think a way of buffing the less skilled units/players is more suitable, otherwise, your penalising people for being good, but yes, there has to be a way to stop the seal clubbing.

#235 Colonel ONeill

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:46 AM

View PostCathy, on 24 July 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

I think a way of buffing the less skilled units/players is more suitable, otherwise, your penalising people for being good, but yes, there has to be a way to stop the seal clubbing.

Easy fix for Sealclubbing: Dont allow Babyseals!

#236 ice trey

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:48 AM

FP Suggestion - Dropdeck Boom/Bust system

FP does have it's underlying issues, but one thing that I think that would really help the immersion aspect of FP would be inclusion of a boom/bust system for the dropdecks. What it is is basically a system that doesn't force/deny players from using certain mechs, but does encourage them to use those designs that their faction is known for, and use a much more varied selection of mechs than the current stale top 10-some percent of variants.

Basically there are three main modifiers: Preference - Production - and Availability.

Preference can be easily understood by reviewing Battletech sourcebooks. TRO 3039, Historical 3039, Era Report 3052... so on and forth. Simply put, every faction has mech chassis on three levels: Common, Uncommon, and Rare. Common would be the stuff preferred by a faction. For example, the Draconis Combine loves and makes the Panther and the Dragon, but they'd be pretty rare in, say, the Capellan Confederation or Free Worlds League. On the other hand, Mechs like the Catapult, Awesome, Whitworth, and Hunchback are appreciated, sometimes imported, but not made there. Those'd be uncommon. Designs that would leave you scratching your head as to why they have them, like the Raven, Cataphract, or Commando? Those qualify as rare. Common mechs have good modifiers, Uncommon Neutral, Rare bad. This kind of reflects how well respected a mech is in a faction, how well stocked they are for spare parts, etc.

Production would be based on factories around the inner sphere. The old 3025 housebooks already go into good detail about which mech factories are where in the inner sphere, and TRO 3039 also tells about which mechs are still being produced at which factories, and which factories have been turned into nuclear craters during the succession wars. Holding a world with a given factory on it would give positive modifiers for the mechs produced on that world. Losing one would lose you those benefits. Some of the inner sphere factories that were captured by the clans were retooled to make clantech, so taking them might allow them to be retooled to make certain designs or give a small, broad benefit to all designs. Specific designs could then be captured between clans, and a little less uniformity and a little more "Trial of Possession" mentality could be encouraged among them.

Availability is the real interesting one. Using automated data collection, the stats for the rate at which each variant is chosen (Maybe in a given day? A given week?) adds a modifier to each mech. This could be a faction-specific measurement, but I think that with the current player base, logging the community as a whole is the best way to get an adequate sample, especially with some factions being really small. Mechs frequently taken have bad modifiers applied to them. Mechs rarely taken have good modifiers applied to them. For example, if everyone is taking Thunderbolts or Stormcrows, the availability of those mechs goes down, making them more difficult to acquire and maintain. Designs that aren't being taken are in surplus, so (The hypothesised) sellers would be pushing to get rid of them with discounted prices, and spare parts would be piling up. Suddenly there's more of a reason to take the Vindicators and Adders out there.


Now I've been talking about modifiers... As for what these modifiers apply to, I'd suggest tonnage (Though at no time should the average modifier factionwide ever be anything but zero, or there'll be a whole lot of faction jumping when every match is at a handicap), as when your super meta popular 70-tonner that doesn't belong in your faction according to the lore is now worth 85 tons, and the often shunned 60 tonner that your faction loves in the lore now only counts as 45 tons, you're more likely to be drawn one way or another. Other things that could be applied on top of this - Especially the Preference and Factory mods - could be LP modifiers, and on the availability aspect, C-bill earnings modifiers.

Other folks have talked about similar things so I don't think I'm speaking in a vacuum, but things like these help to give the game a bit more immersion. As it is, it's mostly just another flavor of deathmatch with a bunch of factions and dots that don't mean anything. At least this way, they start to mean something.

Edited by ice trey, 24 July 2016 - 06:50 AM.


#237 MovinTarget

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 07:28 AM

View Postice trey, on 24 July 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

FP Suggestion - Dropdeck Boom/Bust system

-snip-



Not going to repost a wall directly above my post but I am down with this modifier concept if it reaches PGI's ear. That would give factions *some* variety and flavor that would perhaps not be completely true to lore, but certainly an homage to it.

Now if we got a repair/re-arm mechanic, *then* we could add speed buffs to fixing/reloading common mechs vs nerfs on rare ones...

#238 SolomonKane112

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 07:59 AM

Hm
More then Rank 20-Payout for loyalists

What should a Loyalist do wth Lvl 20?
Why should the lvl-20 Play more FP for that faction?

Fix the Longtom....pls

Give a "Fast-Drop", if u like for CBills...
The Thing is:
Sometimes u lose a defend, becaus ur killed from the Attackers in there last push - and u have to wait 30 seconds to drop...but if only OMEGA left, then u cant win
So give a "Last-Mech-Defend-Drop" where the last Mech drop after 5 secondes - so u have a chance to win....

#239 Uncle Stickyfinger

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 08:19 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 24 July 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

Now if we got a repair/re-arm mechanic, *then* we could add speed buffs to fixing/reloading common mechs vs nerfs on rare ones...


*I also think repair and rearm should be a thing again, but only for FP.

In return either boost C-Bill rewards in FP or create a new faction currency reward for FP that allows R/R at either a significant C-Bill discount or is used to speed the time of the process, to allow your favorite mech back into the fights again sooner.

*Leave QP as a sandbox and training simulator.

Hell, rename it "simulation mode" and see what psychological effect it has on players who want to play the "real game". If people are content playing in the "Simulator", then let them. I bet a lot more of them will focus on the "real" version of the game and also try a bit harder to improve said "simulator" score to take their new skills out to fight on the galactic stage. And frankly, if people hollered at me over comms and told me "climb back in the simulator and learn how to [push with your team or smth], I wouldn't be near as salty about that vs just the endless chants of "git gud" or cursing their teams out in general. Passion is great but stepping on the people who are also trying to enjoy the game alongside you is counterproductive. Right now the only way to learn to play FP is to go out and do it. No amount of QP match limits will teach you not to try and shoot a hole in a gate in FP. :P So vets please bear with us. A lot of us want to be soldiers, not seals.

#240 ice trey

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 08:20 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 24 July 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:


Not going to repost a wall directly above my post but I am down with this modifier concept if it reaches PGI's ear. That would give factions *some* variety and flavor that would perhaps not be completely true to lore, but certainly an homage to it.

Now if we got a repair/re-arm mechanic, *then* we could add speed buffs to fixing/reloading common mechs vs nerfs on rare ones...


What they apply it to doesn't matter so much to me as that it's applied to something that people care about.

For the big units who rack up hours of play, they have C-bill banks that could be buying entire jumpships. Telling them that they're going to be short-changed a few space bux if they keep chasing that one meta build isn't going to do a heck of a lot. If, however, their drop deck gets gimped by bringing three of the things at an extra 25% weight cost, that's a whole other story.

The main thing is that we encourage players to take 'mechs that are from their faction, not just take the most meta builds, and encourage them to capture factories so that they can get some mechs on the cheap, but not completely block them from choosing that one ultra popular meta mech build that their faction has no business using, just make it less appealing to take. On the flip, include the system that encourages players to take less popular mechs to give the game more variation, and not just ERLL Spam T-bolts VS MadCat/Stormcrow-a-palooza

Edited by ice trey, 24 July 2016 - 08:22 AM.






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