71 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

FupDup, on 26 July 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

The Cheetah doesn't have inflated hardpoints. It has 100% Tabletop hardpoints. Zero inflation. Also, it came with ECM in its Prime stock build, so PGI did not "give" ECM to the Cheetah.

Its weapon quirks are basically gone now, as are almost all of the structure quirks (e.g. only +4 on one pair of legs).

Sorry, poor choice of words there. I meant more to say just make it like a Cheetoh, not that the Cheetoh had all that done to it. :3

[1453 R]

Malleus011, on 26 July 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Much of that argument can be applied to any of the IS 'mechs we don't already have. Crusader? You can do the same thing with a Catapult and enjoy better hitboxes. Flashman is a fat Black Knight. Hardpoint inflation and unlimited customization does that.

The Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie and Crusader can't offer anything significantly unique to MWO gameplay at this point, unless PGI changes core mechanics, which they won't.

But they're riding the mechpack train, and they can't get off without crashing, so they've got to sell something.

Thing is, the Wasp and Stinger are egregiously useless in MWO, more than any Crusader or Flashman could be. The Crusader carries a wide mix of E, B, and M - predominated by missiles, but by no means identical to the Catapult's nigh-exclusive E/M fits, while the Flashman has a Timber Wolf-sized engine and could provide the Sphere with heavy mobility they don't currently enjoy.

Wasps? Stingers? Outside of truly, objectively stupid levels of blatant overquirking, there is nothing either 'Mech can do that can't be done, and handily, by other machines. if you want to try and make a case for a 6-jet, 6E Wasp, all right - but the 6E Locust already has issues with heat efficiency when it doesn't sink three extra tons into jets. Trying to get a 6E, 6J 20-ton 'Mech to work would be awful - and then you'd have five other 'Mechs you also need to make work, assuming Piranha does the dumb thing and continues the weird, unnecessary split between 'Wasp' and 'Stinger'.

This'd all be one thing if people actually wanted these 'Mechs in MWO. Thing is, though...the strongest argument put forward by any pro-Wasp/Stinger folks in this thread isn't "this 'Mech would be great in MWO!", or even "I really want to pilot this little guy, it sounds like fun!" The strongest argument people are putting forward in this thread for Piranha taking time out of their 'Mech release cycle to do a twofer and offer a pair of almost completely useless twigweights almost guaranteed to sell poorly here in MWO, where they make their rent money, is "HBS' game would feel incomplete without Wasps or Stingers in it. Piranha should make Wasp/Stinger models so HBS can profit."

That's not an argument that's going to work, and frankly it's an argument I don't like one bit. Not when other 'Mechs that might actually be able to find a niche in MWO could see the light of day, instead.

Or, to put it as succinctly as possible:

#VoteValkyrieInstead

[Y E O N N E]

Vote Raptor instead. Hell, even the Flea is more interesting.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 July 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[jss78]

Malleus011, on 26 July 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Much of that argument can be applied to any of the IS 'mechs we don't already have. Crusader? You can do the same thing with a Catapult and enjoy better hitboxes. Flashman is a fat Black Knight. Hardpoint inflation and unlimited customization does that.

The Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie and Crusader can't offer anything significantly unique to MWO gameplay at this point, unless PGI changes core mechanics, which they won't.

But they're riding the mechpack train, and they can't get off without crashing, so they've got to sell something.

Yup, I guess no 'mech would really offer anything that "new" -- not to the extent that you couldn't drop a standin loadout in some other chassis. I could drop my Crusader loadout in the Jager-A whenever, yet I want the Crusader. Mostly because the Jager is fugly, and I expect Alex's Crusader to look awesome. Yeah, much of it is nostalgia, but then nostalgia is why this game exists anyway, plain and simple. I don't see how a comp-tier player's life should be shattered if they release one 'mech which no-one's forcing them to use anyway.

(Besides, as far as offering something new -- if I were to plot the available IS chassis by tonnage, I bet you'd see a glaring shortage in two places: light ends of the light and medium weight classes. IS has nothing at 20-25 tons that jumps. I liked the suggestion above to give the Stinger/Wasp stupendous JJ quirks: make them stand out.)

[Trauglodyte]

Hit the Deck, on 25 July 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

I think folks at HBS (players and devs) want these 'Mechs in their game because they are some of the most numerous 'Mechs in existence. Of course, some of our Whales (the players, not the Clan 100 tonner) also have expressed interest in owning these precious 'Mechs.

The problem is, that they are not really viable in our current state of the game. A massive hardpoint inflation is needed for a start. Beside giving them the ability to turn into an airplane aerotech and fly, what can PGI do to make them viable and desirable for the masses? Not to mention that it's time for a "Light Mechpack"!

Both will be fine. Due to JJs, they'll be limited to 4 hard points each. You can do a lot running at 150 kph w/ JJs and a few Small Lasers. You don't need to be a massive bad ***, you just need to help your team.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 26 July 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

Both will be fine. Due to JJs, they'll be limited to 4 hard points each. You can do a lot running at 150 kph w/ JJs and a few Small Lasers. You don't need to be a massive bad ***, you just need to help your team.

4 Small Lasers? That's only 12 points of damage, at very very short ranges. And 150 kph? That's the speed that 35-tonners go, while packing 2-3 times the firepower.

The description you gave in this quote box would make these two mechs be on the same level of crappiness as the Spider 5V.

[dervishx5]

FupDup, on 26 July 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

4 Small Lasers? That's only 12 points of damage, at very very short ranges. And 150 kph? That's the speed that 35-tonners go, while packing 2-3 times the firepower.

The description you gave in this quote box would make these two mechs be on the same level of crappiness as the Spider 5V.

Well that's (one of) the (many) underlying problem(s) with the game: since mechs are divided up by weight class it's generally better to go with the heaviest set from each class due to obvious reasons. Not always the case, but it's a general rule.

Now if FW wasn't complete garbage the 20 tonners would have their place to help balance out the 100 tonners.

[Johnny Z]

InspectorG, on 26 July 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Humanoid Locusts. I would pay $10 for that.

Inflate hard points a bit.
Good quirks.
PPC, SL, MG, SRM, Flamer, MPL.

Give the cockpit a nice FoV sideways. Give arms mobility to 90degrees and we can have fast little gangbangers.
Radar range quirks. Lock on speed quirks.

Hell, for lols I would give one streak cooldown quirks to dogfight other lights.

PGI just needs to get creative. Or just listen to me...

This.

The newbies mechpack. One or the other for same price. Not over powered but maybe on par with a slightly stronger Commando. Commando needs a bit of love some how.

I think the Sting and Wasp will prove their name sakes right with being able to bounce around and do hit and run attacks maybe.

[TheArisen]

1453 R, on 26 July 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

Thing is, the Wasp and Stinger are egregiously useless in MWO, more than any Crusader or Flashman could be. The Crusader carries a wide mix of E, B, and M - predominated by missiles, but by no means identical to the Catapult's nigh-exclusive E/M fits, while the Flashman has a Timber Wolf-sized engine and could provide the Sphere with heavy mobility they don't currently enjoy.

Wasps? Stingers? Outside of truly, objectively stupid levels of blatant overquirking, there is nothing either 'Mech can do that can't be done, and handily, by other machines. if you want to try and make a case for a 6-jet, 6E Wasp, all right - but the 6E Locust already has issues with heat efficiency when it doesn't sink three extra tons into jets. Trying to get a 6E, 6J 20-ton 'Mech to work would be awful - and then you'd have five other 'Mechs you also need to make work, assuming Piranha does the dumb thing and continues the weird, unnecessary split between 'Wasp' and 'Stinger'.

This'd all be one thing if people actually wanted these 'Mechs in MWO. Thing is, though...the strongest argument put forward by any pro-Wasp/Stinger folks in this thread isn't "this 'Mech would be great in MWO!", or even "I really want to pilot this little guy, it sounds like fun!" The strongest argument people are putting forward in this thread for Piranha taking time out of their 'Mech release cycle to do a twofer and offer a pair of almost completely useless twigweights almost guaranteed to sell poorly here in MWO, where they make their rent money, is "HBS' game would feel incomplete without Wasps or Stingers in it. Piranha should make Wasp/Stinger models so HBS can profit."

That's not an argument that's going to work, and frankly it's an argument I don't like one bit. Not when other 'Mechs that might actually be able to find a niche in MWO could see the light of day, instead.

Or, to put it as succinctly as possible:

#VoteValkyrieInstead

We don't need the Flashman, it's just a BK 2.0. Also, the Valkyrie is totally outclassed by the Javelin in every way.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Release them in the same mech pack.

Commando needs radar quirks. +25% should do the trick. With advanced sensors it would actually have a use.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 26 July 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[1453 R]

TheArisen, on 26 July 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

We don't need the Flashman, it's just a BK 2.0. Also, the Valkyrie is totally outclassed by the Javelin in every way.

Flashman comes with a 375 engine. Black Knight comes with a 300. The Flashman is innately faster than the Black Knight and could be made faster still, being a Sphere 75-tonner which could actually outspeed the majority of Clan heavies. There's space in the game for that.

The Valkyrie is an LRM-centric light 'Mech - garbage in MWO, but at least unique, and a potential missile-centric chassis in a weight class which does not really have any missile-centric (Sphere) chassis yet. The Javelin may well be a better overall choice, and would fill a very similar niche, yes. My youth pines for the Valkyrie, an old favorite of mine, but in either case the Javelin and the Valkyrie would fulfill a role currently occupied pretty much exclusively by the MC-only Oxide. It may be a quite narrow role, but it's a role.

The Wasp/Stinger do not fulfill any role that is not currently filled. They are slower and more poorly armed than the Locust. They are less maneuverable/jump-capable than the Spider, with few variants able to outshoot Spiders. They do not carry ECM. They do not carry unusual weapons for their weight class. Their canonical role in lore is "throwaway stopgap option/budget militia 'Mech" - a role which does not translate to MWO, and which would also be occupied by the Locust and the UrbanMech even if it did.

There is no room in MWO for the Wasp/Stinger. Frankly I don't really believe there's room in HBS' BattleTech for them either, beyond simple fluff.

Mechwarrior1441491, on 26 July 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

Release them in the same mech pack.

Commando needs radar quirks. +25% should do the trick. With advanced sensors it would actually have a use.

The Wasp and Stinger, if kept separate, would each require a full 'Mech pack's worth of price outlay - art, modeling, designing, balancing, all the fuss. Releasing a double-pack with the two of them in it would be more palatable to the playerbase, which (rightly so) doesn't want to pay Kodiak prices twice for a pair of twenty-ton Sphere garbage 'Mechs. Doing so, however, is a clear and obvious loss for Piranha. A Wasp/Stinger double pack would cost Piranha twice a normal 'Mech pack's worth of resources, and would sell very poorly due to the Wasp and Stinger both being useless.

Combining the Wasp and Stinger both into a single MWO-style Wasp or Stinger with extra variants in a jumbo-size 'Mech pack would make more sense, but would also trigger the lore grognards who're pushing for these scrapheaps in the first place since they don't actually want these 'Mechs in MWO, but are pretty much strictly looking to get the models done for HBS' BattleTech. Going off lore to try and make a single chassis which might come somewhere within radar range of mediocre goes against their actual goal of "get ALL the Unseen into HBS' BattleTech, no matter how putrid they are!"

As for the Commando? It's intended as a strike 'Mech which recons because it has to, not as a recon-centric 'Mech. Unfortunately it can't really fulfill its purpose in a game where you need 20+ tubes of SRMs and 4+ tons of SRM ammo to qualify as an SRM strike 'Mech. The solution is a rework of the engine system to allow for builds with less than ten heat sinks on exceptionally tiny 'Mechs like the Commando, which is sadly also a thing that will trigger lore grognards.

Outside of this? Putting recon quirks on the Commando dilutes the Commando's identity (such as it is and what there is of it), whilst also stealing from the identities of actual reconnaissance 'Mechs such as the Spider or Raven, which should have priority for Information Warfare™-centric quirks and upgrades.

[Trauglodyte]

FupDup, on 26 July 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

4 Small Lasers? That's only 12 points of damage, at very very short ranges. And 150 kph? That's the speed that 35-tonners go, while packing 2-3 times the firepower.

The description you gave in this quote box would make these two mechs be on the same level of crappiness as the Spider 5V.

Fup, you seriously ***** about everything so why am I not surprised that you'd complain about this too. Take the Locust, give it a JJ or two, and subtract out a hard point. THAT will be the Wasp and Stinger and that isn't bad.

[TheArisen]

1453 R, on 26 July 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Flashman comes with a 375 engine. Black Knight comes with a 300. The Flashman is innately faster than the Black Knight and could be made faster still, being a Sphere 75-tonner which could actually outspeed the majority of Clan heavies. There's space in the game for that.

The Valkyrie is an LRM-centric light 'Mech - garbage in MWO, but at least unique, and a potential missile-centric chassis in a weight class which does not really have any missile-centric (Sphere) chassis yet. The Javelin may well be a better overall choice, and would fill a very similar niche, yes. My youth pines for the Valkyrie, an old favorite of mine, but in either case the Javelin and the Valkyrie would fulfill a role currently occupied pretty much exclusively by the MC-only Oxide. It may be a quite narrow role, but it's a role.

.

Well I don't see a need for anything bigger than a 350 in a 75t heavy but just FYI one of the BK variants can take a 380, anything bigger & you've put too much into the engine & now will lack firepower &/or armor to utilize that speed.

I realize the Val is unseen but there's literally nothing it'd be better at then the Javelin. It'd even be taller because of it's bodyshape compared to the Jav. I understand there's value in nostalgia but I'd also point out the Javelin is an older mech with lots of variants & fans.

[FupDup]

Trauglodyte, on 26 July 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Fup, you seriously ***** about everything so why am I not surprised that you'd complain about this too. Take the Locust, give it a JJ or two, and subtract out a hard point. THAT will be the Wasp and Stinger and that isn't bad.

Subtracting weapon hardpoints for JJ is the logic that led to the Spider 5V having a cap of 12 JJ's. Let's learn from the past this time...

It's really not the same as the Lolcust. The Lolcust has better scaling (humanoids have more surface area for the same volume than chickens), higher mounted hardpoints, and a higher engine cap (especially important for mechs with sub-250 limits).

[Syn Pryde]

twenty twenty twenty now

[50 50]

Personally I would like to see the mechs in the game. I like the variety.
While it may not be superior to some other mechs, having some additional options in the different tonnages is a good thing and gives players choice.
I have no doubt that the artists at PGI would do an outstanding job in redesigning the mechs and I hope those designs make it into other titles and also back to the table top.
It seems that the Wasp has a few variants that would do well with lasers and possibly an odd missile build or two.
The Stinger comes across as being a ballistic build with the machine guns but similarly does have some laser options so there can be a slight difference between the two.
As 20 ton jump capable mechs, both the Stinger and Wasp offer something different in the 20 ton weight group that we do not have at all.

At present, and particularly in quick play, the emphasis is heavy on straight up combat so naturally the favoured mechs are those that excel in combat. Fulfilling a role outside of dealing/taking damage in the current game setup is very limited and less useful so until the scope of the game expands enough that these roles become more valuable the status quo will continue.

I would also like to suggest that the game is going to change significantly with skill trees which will give many mechs a chance to shine on their own and with some of the unique skills we caught a glimpse of such as the jump jet vectoring, who knows what other options we may get.

So I would suggest that the Wasp and Stinger do have a place in the game, it would be a shame not to have them.

From a mech pack perspective, difficult to say. I don't really think it needs to change much, but because they are both very similar I might suggest that they are released as two different packs with 3 variants, a special and the hero but with no reinforcement.
Or, have the option of getting either the Wasp or Stinger base pack of 3 variants + special and get a reinforcement pack of 2 Stinger or Wasp variants respectively. That is, buy the Wasp base pack and add on the Stinger Reinforcement... or the other way around.

[JediPanther]

I'd go for ultimate package on the stinger wasp depending on how much of the robotech look was retained. Make it was small as a catapult or locust and xl 300 cap and it will be fine with just 4 med lasers. It would have to have a transformation mode or at least the keep the guardian mode.

[Johnny Z]

These light mechs would be an alternative to the Spider is one of the best things about them.

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 January 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[50 50]

I liked the L.A.M.s for their mobility but they were also heavier and the chance of them getting into the game is non-existent thanks to legal issues.

Might be funny to use the key that opens missile bay doors etc to expand the wings but that's just fluff and who wants to present a larger target to the enemy.

The base builds offer a 120 engine to get their top speed of 90ish kph before speed tweak.
A big problem here is the way the heatsinks are handled with the engines as the mech requires 6 additional heatsinks to meet the minimum 10.
They both have 6 jump jets which should give them pretty good height and jump agility for a 20 ton mech.
3 tons of weaponry then limits them to 2 tons of armour.
The Wasp would get it's leg missile hardpoint moved to the left torso or left arm.

With the option to add more jump jets and a larger engine the speed and jump agility could match other similar mechs in the light class but the better question would be the one that plagues all the chassis: "Why take mech A over mech B?"
We don't want mechs to be a clone of one another, renamed and redesigned, so having a few points of difference is what makes each mech appealing.

The Locust, Commando and Spider seem like the 3 mechs to make comparisons against. The Spider is the toughest competitor as it has the speed, jump ability and similar weapon hard points but an additional 10 tons to utilize.

So... primary points of difference that the mechs immediately offer:
Jump Capable > Locust and Commando.
Full Arm Actuators > Locust
A smaller profile may help vs the Spider as might the 10 ton difference if considering drop deck combinations.

We can then theorize some other options:
Maximum Engine rating.
Maximum number of Jump Jets.
Ability to carry ECM.
AMS hard points.
Actual number of weapon hard points and placement.

But let us not forget some of the other values:
Torso twist range.
Arm movement range.
.... plus a few base agility values such as turning speed, acceleration/deceleration and movement type. (Tiny, Small, Medium etc)

These may all seem like minor points but each of these attributes gives the mechs their own unique feel and identity.

Edited by 50 50, 12 January 2017 - 12:10 AM.

[Oldbob10025]

El Bandito, on 26 July 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

Hollander is the only IS Light I am interested in.

Oh yes the Hollander. I suck at gauss but would love to see this Gem in the game.

Navid A1, on 25 July 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

unless they are 5$ packs... i'm not interested.

I like the idea Navid but doubt they would sell it for $5.00 pack but might do a single mech purchase for $5.00 would be fine for me