84 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

Mystere, on 27 July 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Tell me about it.

Yesterday, in a Skirmish fight on Canyon, we found ourselves in a localized 12v5 advantage. Someone called for a push, so I went in and took down one of the enemy and with minimal damage to myself. Afterwards, when I looked behind me, no one else was there!!! All I saw were long-range laser and LRM fire. Argh!

After extricating myself from the pickle I got myself into, I asked what happened to the push. All I got was silence.

So I went "Banzai!" into the enemy, died, quit, and dropped into another fight.

What a bunch of ******* parasites much of the player base has turned into!

You think that's bad, try a sniper/lurm fight on polar when you're in a LPL Blackjack and you somehow still manage to outperform the rest of the team.

[PyckenZot]

Satan n stuff, on 28 July 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

You think that's bad, try a sniper/lurm fight on polar when you're in a LPL Blackjack and you somehow still manage to outperform the rest of the team.

You think that's bad? Try a PUG game with bad mech balance whilst being at your top for a change ,...

[Davers]

Revis Volek, on 27 July 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

There used to be a quoted stat flying around here from i think Mr. Bryan Eckman saying that Assaults matches ended in Cap less then 5% of the time or something ridiculously low.

Even when the team base caps, due to the new mechanic of not capping while taking fire its even harder to pull this off.

I believe the number was more like 16%, but I would assume that at least half of those were players who didn't want to bother with finding some powered down mech. This was when there was no base defenses either. I would hazard a guess that the numbers of cap wins fell when there was base defenses as the last players would always hide in base and had to be killed before the base could be capped.

[Felio]

A couple of days ago I potato'd on purpose to troll this guy who was berating the team and shouting orders on VOIP. I wanted to see if I could get him to the point I would hear spittle hitting his microphone.

[Mole]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the difference you are noticing is due to power creep and the game's current TTK (Time To Kill). From back in the day, I remember watching videos of 'mechs brawling and just slugging it out for several minutes in a knock-down, drag-out, tooth and nail struggle. I know I'd feel a little braver if I knew that I was going to be that difficult to bring down. Now, even if you're in the tankiest of Assaults you can get dropped from fresh to dead in one second flat if you're not careful. People tend to behave with more caution and more cowardice when they are in an environment where they feel like they could be effectively one-shot at one wrong move. This kind of psychology is part of the reason snipers are so effective in real life modern warfare. Your friend sticks his head out of the trench and his head explodes. I bet you don't want to stick your head out of the trench anymore, do you?

[MischiefSC]

Damage taken is almost as relevant as damage done. Kill leeches are bad players, people who use their team as a meat shield are bad players. I get that people who pad their stats by hiding in the back killstealing think they're amazing and that it's everyone else's fault that their w/l is low to mediocre.

Bads gonna bad. At some point some people give up on trying to be good at the game and focus on how to look like they're good at the game without actually being good. They hide to protect KDR, killsteal and hide in the back and don't share armor.

Bads gonna bad.

[Obadiah333]

Be smart and use GXP to level them up, or grind it out like the rest of us and suffer miserably while doing it.

[Satan n stuff]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

Damage taken is almost as relevant as damage done. Kill leeches are bad players, people who use their team as a meat shield are bad players. I get that people who pad their stats by hiding in the back killstealing think they're amazing and that it's everyone else's fault that their w/l is low to mediocre.

Bads gonna bad. At some point some people give up on trying to be good at the game and focus on how to look like they're good at the game without actually being good. They hide to protect KDR, killsteal and hide in the back and don't share armor.

Bads gonna bad.

There's one unit that does that routinely, usually with whatever the most powerful mech at the time is. Makes me cringe just seeing these guys on my team, because I know they're going to try to be the last ones alive to pad their stats and make themselves look good. Then if you're really lucky they'll also complain about having to carry their team for good measure.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 28 July 2016 - 02:30 PM.

[Slicer]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 July 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

LOL ... what a nice little topic. Potatoes discussing who is the least potato-y among them.

@OP Its all relative. You think certain people in your matches are potatoes, while I'd say the same about yourself if you'd be in my match. There is nothing wrong in being bad, but its very wrong when you are being bad on purpose, and certain people are just that, which is apparent from mechs they build and what they do during a match.



It takes like ... one match to get to T4 from T5 if you are a good player. Maybe two if you are really unlucky or chose the wrong trial mech to drive. Most Founders are legit T4/T5 material. On average they are by far a more pleasant crowd to hang out with but also are by far worse in this game.



Sigh ... la la la here we go with this again.
There are no valid objectives in this game apart from killing your opponents, thus damage is what matters the most. Best players in this game are the ones doing more damage on average. Damage kills enemies and killing enemies allows you to live longer to do more damage and so on. Obviously it needs to be damage that kills and not something that spreads all over the place, but it is also reflected in average damage because not being able to do effective damage leads to enemy team killing you and your team too fast for you to do large amounts of your ineffective damage, thus your avg dmg suffers.

You can argue all you want and bring kittens all you want, but in current MWO this is fact.



Entire 8-man of afk'ers maybe. No matter how good you are if your opponent is at least nearly as good he'll be able to spread lots of damage over his mech.



If you die early and disconnect you are bad and bad on purpose.
If you die early and spectate to learn you are bad but improving.
I think it should be pretty clear why bad players are bad now.

I wont lie, i've had my potato moments. Being the spearhead and realizing a tick or two late that others arent pushing. Holding a flank and screaming that 4-8 hostiles are about to crash it, with no help coming even if i can delay the enemy for 30-60 seconds. Bringing Lurms to a fight and my team melting or running at the 1st sign of trouble leaving my *** unsupported at the front (im a 200-500m LRM boater). Usually i only get potato'ed when i make a bad decision, the enemy capitalizes it, and my own team doesnt respond when i call it out when the bad **** is about to go down.

At least if im in my heavy or assault i have a chance to shoot my way out of trouble *cough Dakkabear cough*. In the mediums i'm trying to grind up, i dont have that luxury and need to be ultra aware to see if my allies are a pack of cowards who absolutely refuse to form a firing line or idiots who YOLO after a light.

I'm not worried about facing good players, i just want enough good players on my own team so that my side just doesnt melt at 1st contact or get easily picked off in the sniper standoff while doing no damage in return. I'll do my part In my medium escorting assaults/heavies and scraping ankle biters off their backs/legs. Adding my firepower to the firing line if my side decides to stand their ground. And being active on comms on whatever major developments i see occuring in battle.

It's an interesting trend i see now. Back during Open Beta right after ECM dropped, games were mostly decided by whichever side had better lights. So the side that brought organized Cravens and Streakmandos (this was back before HSR so streaks were damn near mandatory for light v light fighting) would mop up their light opposition and thus win the battle either via cap (if your big boys get rolled by the opposing big boys) or when the lights start crashing the enemies rear in the brawl.

Nowadays i think having superior assault pilots is more important. Its just too easy for an assault to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get instantly ganked by a pack of fast movers or being out in the open and gunned down (we've all seen this happen WAY too many times), hence why i dont mind being on escort duty with my medium. If the teams assaults are smart they'll plod to the proper front in a timely manner while under cover and not let themselves get shot up before the major firefight. With proper application of firepower and armor the team with better assaults will generally win as the faster heavies and mediums provide additional frontline firepower and flank support for the assaults. Against a formed body of mechs, lights usually wont live long if they get hyper zealous in their slash attacks.

Essentially a team that falls behind 2 assaults is in a bigger hole than 2 lights due to the loss of collective firepower. I've seen more occurrances of a team coming back from the early loss of two YOLO lights than from losing two assaults.

[Tarogato]

Slicer, on 27 July 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

"so you seriously just stood in the back the whole time while your team pushed" and he told me to stfu and that he "prolly did more damage than me".

Last time I cussed out somebody for hanging in the back with an ERLL assault, they got double the damage of anybody else in the entire match.

So I don't cuss people out for it anymore, and sometimes I do it myself now. It works. Sometimes just staying in the back and playing safe so that you can output constant damage all match is the best option you have in pug queue because you can't rely on your team to coordinate anything. Of course, some people are just legitimately potatoes and aren't worth the slot they occupy on a team regardless of what they do...

[Slicer]

Yea, but if he had pitched in during the brawl and added his armor to ours in the ensuing melee we coulda come out ahead, he was pretty much untouched til the point he got swarmed at the end.

Not to mention he's the type of assault who gets insta ***** by a light who decided to swing wide and check the backfield for easy targets. DireWhale aint gonna be able to track a competent light backstabber. Remember he's TWO grids behind the battleline shooting into a melee where there was alot of building cover. Basically he's spraying his damage around and only got a kill cuz the rest of us opened up the hell out of the remaining bad guys as they charged him.

Assaults need to be up front, even when i Lurm boat with an assault (i like using MAL-1R due to its LRM15 quirks), i prefer to be 300-600m away at most to make sure my Lurms get max effect and harder to dodge. Also by being mixed into the firing line whatever shots i eat is less shots hitting the true bruisers who are gonna wade in and mess some dudes day up when the push occurs. Even if i'm at near death cherry CT, with my arms + one leg shot off, im still boating 60 LRMs and pouring in heavy indirect fire salvos. Any other mech is heavily disarmed and an insta kill in that same scenario.

Assaults should be up on the battleline at all times imho.

[GreenHell]

(Sigh... I realize this turned into a bit of story time. I swear I didn't mean to type this much. No salt btw, I thoroughly enjoyed the match I'm talking about.)

I do occasionally snipe (or as I was accused of, "hiding at max range"...). When I do snipe, I don't make great effort to hide myself. Indeed I do the opposite, because I know full well that 80% of mechs are built to be effective at 600m or less. That makes my 900m sniper HBK-IIC take about 30% less damage, and that's not even taking into account that people not used to sniping are probably going to miss a lot.

I loved the match where I was able to rack up a huge damage score by openly sniping the enemy team AND distracting them to no end. They stupidly sent a slow Marauder after me and he never made it half way to my spot. A Battlemaster met the same fate (with help from a light on our side, thanks bud ). All the while, I was hitting a whale at 1000m basically for free because he simply couldn't hit me at that range.

That's not to say I didn't take damage because I most certainly did. My left side was dark red armor since the build was all right sided, so I was dead-siding the left. I'll be the first to admit, I did stay up there a bit too long since the only mechs left at the end were myself and a partially damaged W-Hawk. We grouped up for a final brawl, but I was distracted by my own team yelling at me. We didn't last long against their remaining 5 mechs (I did take one with me though ).

However, I like to think my efforts helped us last as long as we did rather than bring us down. At one point I had at least 4 mechs looking my way, and hungry to kill the sniper. I also had the RAPT attention of that whale, who I could tell was none too happy to be my favorite target. I basically forced the enemy team to abandon the central area that they were milling around in.

However, in the end I still get accused as the one, single player who "cost us the game" since I wasn't "sharing armor up front with the team". Even though I was taking plenty of damage. If they'd stopped to think about the ranges I was taking hits, they'd realize that I'm lasting longer due to damage reduction (while doing near full damage in return mind you). But that's not what matters. I wasn't up front, so I'm a bad and I lost us the game right?

I realize the strategy of sniping works best in a group drop, but I had PERFECT position to snipe, and a mech purpose built for it during that game so I took advantage of it. In the end potato is as potato does, but sometimes I wonder who the potato really is... Was I wrong to be sniping most of the game? Or was my team wrong to blame me alone for losing us the game?

TL:DR - I sniped once and got yelled at for it. Perfect sniping position the whole game, loads of damage, but we still lost. Does that make me potato?

Edited by GreenHell, 28 July 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[MischiefSC]

GreenHell, on 28 July 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

(Sigh... I realize this turned into a bit of story time. I swear I didn't mean to type this much. No salt btw, I thoroughly enjoyed the match I'm talking about.)

I do occasionally snipe (or as I was accused of, "hiding at max range"...). When I do snipe, I don't make great effort to hide myself. Indeed I do the opposite, because I know full well that 80% of mechs are built to be effective at 600m or less. That makes my 900m sniper HBK-IIC take about 30% less damage, and that's not even taking into account that people not used to sniping are probably going to miss a lot.

I loved the match where I was able to rack up a huge damage score by openly sniping the enemy team AND distracting them to no end. They stupidly sent a slow Marauder after me and he never made it half way to my spot. A Battlemaster met the same fate (with help from a light on our side, thanks bud ). All the while, I was hitting a whale at 1000m basically for free because he simply couldn't hit me at that range.

That's not to say I didn't take damage because I most certainly did. My left side was dark red armor since the build was all right sided, so I was dead-siding the left. I'll be the first to admit, I did stay up there a bit too long since the only mechs left at the end were myself and a partially damaged W-Hawk. We grouped up for a final brawl, but I was distracted by my own team yelling at me. We didn't last long against their remaining 5 mechs (I did take one with me though ).

However, I like to think my efforts helped us last as long as we did rather than bring us down. At one point I had at least 4 mechs looking my way, and hungry to kill the sniper. I also had the RAPT attention of that whale, who I could tell was none too happy to be my favorite target. I basically forced the enemy team to abandon the central area that they were milling around in.

However, in the end I still get accused as the one, single player who "cost us the game" since I wasn't "sharing armor up front with the team". Even though I was taking plenty of damage. If they'd stopped to think about the ranges I was taking hits, they'd realize that I'm lasting longer due to damage reduction (while doing near full damage in return mind you). But that's not what matters. I wasn't up front, so I'm a bad and I lost us the game right?

I realize the strategy of sniping works best in a group drop, but I had PERFECT position to snipe, and a mech purpose built for it during that game so I took advantage of it. In the end potato is as potato does, but sometimes I wonder who the potato really is... Was I wrong to be sniping most of the game? Or was my team wrong to blame me alone for losing us the game?

TL:DR - I sniped once and got yelled at for it. Perfect sniping position the whole game, loads of damage, but we still lost. Does that make me potato?

So here's the problem. What you did was allow the enemy to concentrate superior numbers and share damage among more people. They were sharing armor among 12 targets, you made your team do it among 11. The moment you hit the field in a sniper you statistically increased the odds of your team losing. So when someone can't shoot you effectively they shoot your teammates instead; this concentrates fire on your teammates. All the enemy has to do is reduce exposure to you and they have effectively eliminated a member of your team from their scope of engagement until they're ready to deal with you.

Sniping breaks up your team so they other team can destroy your team in detail. That means a few at a time. While there are times that a very bad team will fall all over themselves because they were getting sniped - you could say the same thing about LRMs. There are bad teams on some maps that will just fall down and die for LRM boats. However this is the exception, not the rule.

If you're in group queue or comp play playing a sniper as a set role in a coordinated deck that's one thing. Being a sniper in pug queue is functionally turning your team into meatshields so you can farm damage from people while they kill your teammates, padding your stats at the expense of team success.

It's even worse in FP. A 'sniper' or 'support mech' (LRMs) pugging in FP is about as useful to his teams success as a disconnect. It's someone vulturing damage and kills while letting their teammates take the damage and actually carry the match.

It comes down to a simple question:

Are you motivated by having the team win or are you motivated by your own score, even if doing better means making your team do worse?

[Pyrocolonic]

Potatoes grow best in soil fertilized by the self righteous tears of grown mid-life men who take this robit shooting game seriously enough to type up very lengthy and self congratulating posts so that they can be patted on the back by other "very serious" game players. The soil here is among the richest in the world, a true spudtopia!

Edited by Burma, 29 July 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[Besh]

@Slicer :

Send me a friend request in Game . Hit me up for grouping . When I play, I am mostly on Comstar NA, DS 9, where a bunch of good people I met a few weeks ago often hang out to play together .

Edited by Besh, 28 July 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

That Dire Wolf pilot sure sounds quite annoying and useless.

I remember back in beta when the motto was "Follow the d--- Atlas" and everyone ran in to fight.

After 12v12 was added it started getting a bit riskier to push if the enemy firing line was competent. New players also started having it easier, this means we did retain more players, but the players we retain were generally much worse than the old school ones who had to duke it out solo in stock mechs against 8 man Atlas death squads and still managed to stick around.

You got a lot of people who go around now who just suck as people and as players. Drops with good solo teams are great when they happen, but bad teams are a bit more common. Group queue eliminates a decent bit of having to deal with randoms at least, and I mean, who doesn't want to charge 12 coordinated Adders running UAC20s into the enemy lines?

[Novakaine]

All I can freaking say it is a damn shame to have to lead a push in a lurm boat!

[Slicer]

Besh, on 28 July 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

@Slicer :

Send me a friend request in Game . Hit me up for grouping . When I play, I a mostly on Comstar NA, DS 9, where a bunch good people I met a few weeks ago often hang out to play together .

And speak of the devil, last drop i was facing off against you! Haha that was a perfect example of a potato game. Polar Highlands Conquest. my team mostly light-heavy and no assaults, we did a decent job getting to theta in a group and overrun a coupla overzealous lights capping there (after much coaxing on my part). Then i peak my head over the ridges to see your main body charging in at us, spotting multiple Kodiaks and other assorted big nasties. Now we're up 12-9/10, but we're toting a bunch of non meta/ecm light meds and have 3 caps to 2. Whats the smart thing to do? Fall back behind a ridge and wait for your charge and have some fast movers get ready to slash your rear on your assault... Instead we just have guys try to outsnipe big *** mechs with big *** guns (Gauss Rifles, ER PPCs, etc) vs our ER LL (at best, more like ER ML), get gunned down like dogs, then have some more folks try to YOLO in there for gods know what reason all the while im screaming at them to fall behind the ridges and await a push. Sigh... to add insult to injury i think you guys even detached a coupla guys to counter cap so we got run over 12v 6-7 big *** mechs.

Dakota1000, on 28 July 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

That Dire Wolf pilot sure sounds quite annoying and useless.

I remember back in beta when the motto was "Follow the d--- Atlas" and everyone ran in to fight.

After 12v12 was added it started getting a bit riskier to push if the enemy firing line was competent. New players also started having it easier, this means we did retain more players, but the players we retain were generally much worse than the old school ones who had to duke it out solo in stock mechs against 8 man Atlas death squads and still managed to stick around.

You got a lot of people who go around now who just suck as people and as players. Drops with good solo teams are great when they happen, but bad teams are a bit more common. Group queue eliminates a decent bit of having to deal with randoms at least, and I mean, who doesn't want to charge 12 coordinated Adders running UAC20s into the enemy lines?

Ah yes those were some terrible *** days of 8mans vs PUGs. I got in when it was limited to 4mans vs, still a huge comms advantage and one whenever i drop i wonder, "is me and my crew better than our opposing 4 man?". Yea i miss the days where im riding my Atlas DDC and yelling out to follow my fat *** into a brawl and people were apt to listen since i got ECM. As i said in another thread, our new players seem to be a bit more timid than the ones we had in the past who all seemed to be hyper aggressive and enjoy a good brawl.

Ugh, those old school trial mechs... god those who stuck around truly were made of sterner stuff...

[PhoenixFire55]

Slicer, on 28 July 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

I wont lie, i've had my potato moments ...

We all do. The difference is doing it once and learning from it and doing it all the time. What I've tryed to make clear is the difference between a potato and a decent player is that the former cares not about what is right, cares not about advise that is given etc. As I've said, when a person dies and disconnects right after thats a flashing potato sign.

This is, supposedly, argubly ... a team game. I.e. when you launch this trash you are kinda saying you want to play a team game. And yet 99% of players I meet every day in PUGs actually give a zero damn about teammates and helping their team win. Same way 9 out of 10 groups of 5+ players launching into a group queue have zero coordination and zero clue about how a premade should play.

Why are people like that? I guess you can say its human nature - being lazy, being stupid. If MWO was a single player game then I'd say its fine if you want to be lazy and stupid while playing a game yourself. But as its a multiplayer, i.e. a social activity, then just like any social activity you have to abide by the rules and either try or gtfo. And yet they don't. Thats why I'll never be lenient towards potatos.

It was different in CB, because CB was full of BT/MW fans, most people cared, most people were willing to improve, to be team players and so on. Now the majority of them are gone, pizzed off by PGI or the same potatoes that flooded the game after it went open, the same potatoes that PGI is building their game for, which they clearly stated many times, and which is apparent by the "balancing" and "fixes" they make.

[FalconerGray]

AnTi90d, on 27 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

If I'm forced to play five Crapquest Conquest matches in a row, I stop caring and turn into a potato.

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