413 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

To me it just seems like the LBX is designed to be a good support weapon as it stands. It spreads damage, has bonus crit potential, and it can be fired with less than pinpoint accuracy.

The problem is that it takes up so much space and weighs so much that the cost of using it is too great.

If you want to use the LBX as a primary damage dealing weapon, it is too unfocused for the job, and as a support weapon it is just too large.

If the LBX weighed and was as large as a SRM launcher, it wouldnt be so bad, it could fill a secondary roll.

I just think it's shotgun like mechanic WITH it's size (IS anyway) and weight makes the LBX the lesser choice for both the primary weapon system of your mech and the secondary system as well.

[Y E O N N E]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 August 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

The problem is that it takes up so much space and weighs so much that the cost of using it is too great.

That is basically the problem with every "bad" piece of equipment in the game; the cost-to-benefit ratio relative to other options is inferior. It's why I roll my eyes whenever somebody brings up sized hard-points; it does absolutely nothing to alleviate that problem. If weapons all performed in a way that scaled consistently with resource requirements, we'd be half way to solving the balance issues within each tech set.

[Yellonet]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Light mechs might get disproportionately shafted though. Not only many of them have mere 10-20 armor per section, their internals are also of low value and get busted by your 100% crit real fast.

Exactly. Muahaha.

But seriously, there's no mech that I know of that have less than 10 armour in any one location (max value that is).
Also, as the spread is still the same you would usually not get all pellets to one location.
It could be an effective weapon once enemies have been damaged quite a lot, or if you can sneak up fairly close behind a big mech that has frontloaded it's armour and have less than 10 on the back.
Even with more than 10 armour you could strip off some armour with a few lasers, then immediately blast the LB-x for good effect.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 August 2016 - 05:04 AM, said:

That is basically the problem with every "bad" piece of equipment in the game; the cost-to-benefit ratio relative to other options is inferior. It's why I roll my eyes whenever somebody brings up sized hard-points; it does absolutely nothing to alleviate that problem. If weapons all performed in a way that scaled consistently with resource requirements, we'd be half way to solving the balance issues within each tech set.

I agree.

I think that if the LBX10 keeps the shotgun mechanic as is, it will never be scaled correctly for effectiveness. Really it is basically the ballistic equivalent of something between a SRM4/6+Art and that system is smaller and lighter. Even if pellet damage is increased, it would be what? A SRM6+Art? Lol. A LBX would probably still be less effective and still too big and heavy in comparison.

It is just a weapon that is always going to be passed up unless it can be boated or maybe it fits a location where an A/C10 wouldn't. Idk :/

[El Bandito]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 August 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

I agree.

I think that if the LBX10 keeps the shotgun mechanic as is, it will never be scaled correctly for effectiveness. Really it is basically the ballistic equivalent of something between a SRM4/6+Art and that system is smaller and lighter. Even if pellet damage is increased, it would be what? A SRM6+Art? Lol. A LBX would probably still be less effective and still too big and heavy in comparison.

It is just a weapon that is always going to be passed up unless it can be boated or maybe it fits a location where an A/C10 wouldn't. Idk :/

SRM6 has 4 heat, 4 second cooldown. LB10X has 2 heat, 2.5 second cooldown. If the pellet damage is increased to 1.5, I believe it will be a decent ballistic close range weapon for mech that has the weight capacity for it.

[MeiSooHaityu]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 05:58 AM, said:

SRM6 has 4 heat, 4 second cooldown. LB10X has 2 heat, 2.5 second cooldown. If the pellet damage is increased to 1.5, I believe it will be a decent ballistic close range weapon for mech that has the weight capacity for it.

But should a LBX10 really potentially inflict 50% more damage than it's A/C10 counterpart and weigh 1 ton less and take up one less crit slot? :/

It just seems a bit obscene of a buff. it seems even more obscene when an assault mech is firing 4 of them. Jumping from 40 damage to 60 damage is quite the jump. That's always the problem when balancing a weapon system. You can't just balance for one, you have to balance for multiples. I'd imagine to do this, ghost heat would need to be more severe as well. for 3 or more LBXs firing at once.

[El Bandito]

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 August 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

But should a LBX10 really potentially inflict 50% more damage than it's A/C10 counterpart and weigh 1 ton less and take up one less crit slot? :/

It just seems a bit obscene of a buff. it seems even more obscene when an assault mech is firing 4 of them. Jumping from 40 damage to 60 damage is quite the jump. That's always the problem when balancing a weapon system. You can't just balance for one, you have to balance for multiples. I'd imagine to do this, ghost heat would need to be more severe as well. for 3 or more LBXs firing at once.

Considering its spread, why not? The LBX10/20 for example, can't put all the pellets in one section of a mech even under 200 meters. 200 meters! Also, current LBX doesn't have ghost heat. At all. Therefore PGI can use GH to reign in LBX boating easily. Ultimately, damage number can be subject to change. I just want it higher than now.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 August 2016 - 06:58 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

Considering its spread, why not? The LBX10/20 for example, can't put all the shots in one section even under 200 meters. 200 meters! Also, current LBX doesn't have ghost heat. At all. PGI can use GH to reign in LBX boating.

I'll be honest, other than it seeming rather overboard when it comes to the label of the weapon vs the damage it inflicts, I can't REALLY come up with a reason that it couldn't do 1.5 dmg per pellet. Afterall we are in a game of quirks that alter weapon values anyway. Regardless, It still seems ludicrous to me, I'm just being honest.

It would have to add at least a bit of ghost heat I'd imagine.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 03 August 2016 - 06:57 AM.

[Blind Baku]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Light mechs might get disproportionately shafted though. Not only many of them have mere 10-20 armor per section, their internals are also of low value and get busted by your 100% crit real fast.

Yeah, no. How about a % of armor instead? Does that make any fluff or 'science' sense... no, but balance wise it works a little more...

MeiSooHaityu, on 03 August 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

I agree.

I think that if the LBX10 keeps the shotgun mechanic as is, it will never be scaled correctly for effectiveness. Really it is basically the ballistic equivalent of something between a SRM4/6+Art and that system is smaller and lighter. Even if pellet damage is increased, it would be what? A SRM6+Art? Lol. A LBX would probably still be less effective and still too big and heavy in comparison.

It is just a weapon that is always going to be passed up unless it can be boated or maybe it fits a location where an A/C10 wouldn't. Idk :/

As stated above, while you get the benefit of better damage per ton for the SRM (if engaging in Alpha Warrior Online, which is how l33t meta players play), you loose out on the DPS (which, requires face time, so some could argue that is a draw back), which brings me back to something that comes up regularly, Why not buff the cooldown.

Adjust the LBX cooldown (stock) from 2.5 to 2.0 (20%) requirk the applicable mechs (LBX Cool down adjustments to take into account the new native cycle rate while still giving those mechs an edge in the cooldown area), and maybe tweak spread 5 - 10%.

Keep in mind the weapon is a support weapon. It serves best on the second line, trying to force it into a door kicker position without the needed alternative ammo options is not trying to make the LBX serviceable, it's trying to make a whole new weapon.

Also, obligatory "It critz gud"

Edited by Blind Baku, 03 August 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

Considering its spread, why not? The LBX10/20 for example, can't put all the pellets in one section of a mech even under 200 meters. 200 meters! Also, current LBX doesn't have ghost heat. At all. Therefore PGI can use GH to reign in LBX boating easily. Ultimately, damage number can be subject to change. I just want it higher than now.

I don't think it even needs to be 50%. Even at 1.2 damage per pellet, you would create a non-trivial advantage over a standard AC/10 at the short range bracket as the extra damage adds up with each subsequent shot. Doing this, tightening up the spread just enough so that all pellets reliably hit ~90% within the whole torso section of, say, a Cataphract at 540 meters and increasing its rate of fire by 10% would put the LB-10X in a great place. It would have the raw DPS to sandblast targets at range in a way that makes it impossible to ignore even if it isn't incredibly dangerous, and up close it has an edge over the more flexible AC/10.

The concept scales for the other LB-X weapons as well.

[InspectorG]

Dakota1000, on 02 August 2016 - 07:19 PM, said:

You do realize you are essentially saying the LBX 2 should only do 1 damage per shot to an enemy with armor, right?

You realize the weapon would be completely worthless because you'd never manage to open the enemy's armor up to use that extra bonus, right?

And how much damage you think an LBX2 is gonna net you at range? Both those pellets gonna hit? The same component? On a likely moving target? LBX5? 20?

And if they get better at closer range like you propose, why not just take SRMs? You can get a way better alpha with SRMs per ton than an LBX.

Part of the Problem is LBX had a different role in BT that PGI didnt factor.

[InspectorG]

El Bandito, on 02 August 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

0.5 damage vs. armor? I didn't know people can further mess up the LBX, given its current sad situation.

And once that armor is gone?

At decent range, an LBX20 becomes an LBX60-100 depending on how many pellets land and crits.

How long does armor last in a good brawl? With teammates who can aim down range?

[YourSaviorLegion]

You guys are kidding right? LBX is not really under powered at all you're just using it wrong...
https://youtu.be/mJ5YDGGFjv0

[Mcgral18]

YourSaviorLegion, on 03 August 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

you're just using it wrong...

[YourSaviorLegion]

Actually I forgot PGI gave MS special LBX cannons my bad... you can continue your rant now

[El Bandito]

InspectorG, on 03 August 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

And once that armor is gone?

At decent range, an LBX20 becomes an LBX60-100 depending on how many pellets land and crits.

How long does armor last in a good brawl? With teammates who can aim down range?

You are still sitting on 10-20 tons of worthless weight while waiting for the brawl to start though. And even then you need exposed targets. I definitely do not like it.

YourSaviorLegion, on 03 August 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

You guys are kidding right? LBX is not really under powered at all you're just using it wrong...
https://youtu.be/mJ5YDGGFjv0

I can get that score with lurms. Doesn't change the fact lurms are still bad, though it is for another thread.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 August 2016 - 08:38 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Mcgral18, on 02 August 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

And you'd be wrong

Simple as that

Feel free to be wrong, but try to avoid spreading that nonsense.

You know what, you don't justify a response because you made no argument, but **** you. I'll spread whatever the **** I want, so if you want me to shut up you'll just need a better argument.

Quote

An LB15 would be worse than a LB20x presently is...which is bad. Borderline usable, at best.

A better LB20x might change my mind on taking one, instead of the completely superior Goose Waffle

For clarity, the "LBX15" in quotes is a LBX10 with 50% more damage. The Goose Waffle wouldn't be entirely superior in a brawl, because it has a longer cooldown, weighs 2 more tons, has less damage per ton of ammo (half because the 200 damage/ton has been boost by 50% for the buffed LBX), and explodes if you sneeze at it. Of course, it'd still might lose out to the GR where the the GR shines, but that's beside the point when you can have a 10 ton, 15 damage, 300 damage per ton weapon system. That ammo efficiency alone would make it effectively lighter.

[InspectorG]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

You are still sitting on 10-20 tons of worthless weight while waiting for the brawl to start though. And even then you need exposed targets. I definitely do not like it.

Like boated Streaks?

[El Bandito]

InspectorG, on 03 August 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

Like boated Streaks?

3xSSRM6 = 9 tons. CLB10X = 10 tons. 3xSSRM6s can not only deals much higher damage to armor, it can completely screw over Lights. LB10X in the version you are advocating pales in comparison. 0.5 damage to armor is a stupid stupid idea.

[YourSaviorLegion]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

You are still sitting on 10-20 tons of worthless weight while waiting for the brawl to start though. And even then you need exposed targets. I definitely do not like it.




I can get that score with lurms. Doesn't change the fact lurms are still bad, though it is for another thread.

I do it consistently and the best I've done is 1300... but whatever you want to believe