413 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Blind Baku, on 06 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

I get that, meant earlier in the thread someone pointed out that something like 15% of crit damage is transferred into structural damage. Increase the volume of crit damage means by nature you increase the volume of structure damage. This you get a weapon that would have an engine element, but statistically does get a damage bonus to UN armored parts.

I have more to post, but it is late so will post, maybe Monday

I'm all for changing the CritDamMult to 5, from 2

That changes it from 5 to 2 crits required to destroy a typical item, and also increases the bonus damage from 0.3 to .75, nearly double damage (or 2.5 damage, or greater)


That's a simple .XML edit, and wouldn't change at all how the weapon works, but at least it would be half decent at Critting with some additional bonus damage of non inconsequential value

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

That logic can be easily circumvented on LBX cannons by rationalizing that the pellet count remains the same as the caliber (2/5/10/20). The pellet damage however, can be changed.

I understand that, but does PGI see it that way, that's the problem.

[Strum Wealh]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 August 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

the thing is id rather have more Pellets, just think the LBX2 has 2 Pellets, not much of a shotgun,
Perhaps they should Double the Pellets(LBX2=4pellets)(LBX5=10pellets)(LBX10=20pellets)(LBX20=40pellets)
with that make Pellet Damage 0.60? i think this would be better than just making damage to 1.2 per Pellet,
Edit- Spelling

Admittedly, I would have been fine with each LB-X class have the same number of pellets per salvo, with the per-salvo damage being split amongst those (e.g. a LB 2-X firing ten pellets at 0.2 damage per pellet, a LB 5-X firing ten pellets at 0.5 damage per pellet, a LB 10-X firing ten pellets at 1.0 damage per pellet, and a LB 20-X firing ten pellets at 2.0 damage per pellet).
And, similarly to what BC suggested previously, the per-pellet damage above applies to armor and structure, but equipment items receive a substantial multiplier (e.g. not less than 5x) of the per-pellet damage on a critical hit.

[BabyCakes666]

LBX needs a buff

so just buff it PGI

you wont fix PPCs so at least fix LBX :/

[pyrocomp]

Blind Baku, on 06 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

I get that, meant earlier in the thread someone pointed out that something like 15% of crit damage is transferred into structural damage. Increase the volume of crit damage means by nature you increase the volume of structure damage. This you get a weapon that would have an engine element, but statistically does get a damage bonus to UN armored parts.

I have more to post, but it is late so will post, maybe Monday

Crit damage of a single 1 dmg pellet is 2 dmg (if I get multipliers correctly). This yields to 0.3 dmg transfered to IS. This is well below anything significant. Really. Even proposed drastical increase x5 multipler to crit damage and 50% damage transfer it still will be 2.5 dmg (aroud 7 dmg per full blast thinned all over to components and their IS) does little to overall situation. People get damage like that from overheating and are usually ok with that.

Anyway, damage per pellet increase is more preferable than pellet count increase as 'server load and hitreg' same for fire rate. Technically less calculations per shot and per sever minute. Easier to push through PGI I think.

Edited by pyrocomp, 07 August 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

I could care less about extra damage to armor or structure.

What I want is when I fire an LB-10X into a stripped of armor target, equipment is ruined because I just slapped it with 50ish points of equipment damage (plus the usual 10 points of structure damage, which should be enough to trash weapons, heat sinks, and ammo left and right.

Raw extra damage to armor/structure just reduces TTK again (and is a sucky thing to add to crit hits while we're at it). Bad weapon systems need to be able to do different things than pure damage or we're in an endless circlejerk of "my weapon doesn't kill fast enough, nerf/buff X again".

Edited by Brain Cancer, 07 August 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Blind Baku]

pyrocomp, on 07 August 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

Crit damage of a single 1 dmg pellet is 2 dmg (if I get multipliers correctly). This yields to 0.3 dmg transfered to IS. This is well below anything significant. Really. Even proposed drastical increase x5 multipler to crit damage and 50% damage transfer it still will be 2.5 dmg (aroud 7 dmg per full blast thinned all over to components and their IS) does little to overall situation. People get damage like that from overheating and are usually ok with that.

Anyway, damage per pellet increase is more preferable than pellet count increase as 'server load and hitreg' same for fire rate. Technically less calculations per shot and per sever minute. Easier to push through PGI I think.

If we are talking an un-quirked lbx (inner sphere, still can contrive a reason to bring the clan variants), at <200m, putting 7+ pellets on target, on component (torso specifically), for most mediums or larger is not a hard request. So 7*.67=4.69*2=1.407+7(original pellet damage) = 8.407 total damage to structure for that hit... Not better than 10, let alone 20, but when you add time... Less heat, less weight so easier to bring more stuff to bear so more brawling means more potability. Also when you start looking at the fact that anything bigger that a mpl takes up 2+ crit slots and therefore the rolling per pellet is slightly mitigated (especially when you face of with mechs that have ballistics that can fill 8 slots with just one item) and if they didn't fill every slot with crit padding... Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky or a jerk, but test the weapon. Go into it open minded and see how it plays, not just looks on paper. I have 6 game to respond on but that will have to wait till I can sit down at a computer with the ability link screens etc... I also really want to find the time to just sit in the test grounds, but I would really appreciate some one from the vehemently anti lbx side to similarly test because I know I have a bias, I like the lbx (IS), I do very well with it more often than not, but be waste one hand clapping etc...

[El Bandito]

Blind Baku, on 07 August 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

If we are talking an un-quirked lbx (inner sphere, still can contrive a reason to bring the clan variants), at <200m, putting 7+ pellets on target, on component (torso specifically), for most mediums or larger is not a hard request. So 7*.67=4.69*2=1.407+7(original pellet damage) = 8.407 total damage to structure for that hit... Not better than 10, let alone 20, but when you add time... Less heat, less weight so easier to bring more stuff to bear so more brawling means more potability.

Dealing 8 damage on a location at only sub 200 meters for 11 tons of weapon is pretty bad. Sure, there is the equipment crit factor after the armor is gone, but in matches where there are competent players participating, they immediately call out exposed sections and the said section gets destroyed ASAP, which means no need for LBX. In the underhive matches though, anything goes, really.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 August 2016 - 07:11 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Blind Baku, on 07 August 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

If we are talking an un-quirked lbx (inner sphere, still can contrive a reason to bring the clan variants), at <200m, putting 7+ pellets on target, on component (torso specifically), for most mediums or larger is not a hard request. So 7*.67=4.69*2=1.407+7(original pellet damage) = 8.407 total damage to structure for that hit... Not better than 10, let alone 20, but when you add time... Less heat, less weight so easier to bring more stuff to bear so more brawling means more potability. Also when you start looking at the fact that anything bigger that a mpl takes up 2+ crit slots and therefore the rolling per pellet is slightly mitigated (especially when you face of with mechs that have ballistics that can fill 8 slots with just one item) and if they didn't fill every slot with crit padding... Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky or a jerk, but test the weapon. Go into it open minded and see how it plays, not just looks on paper. I have 6 game to respond on but that will have to wait till I can sit down at a computer with the ability link screens etc... I also really want to find the time to just sit in the test grounds, but I would really appreciate some one from the vehemently anti lbx side to similarly test because I know I have a bias, I like the lbx (IS), I do very well with it more often than not, but be waste one hand clapping etc...

Ahem.
If I do remember correctly...

Crits happen only on unarmored components. AC/10 and LBX have same rate of fire (1 shot per 2.5 seconds). Thus in your example 7 dmg per 2.5 seconds and 10 dmp per 2.5 seconds. LBX is less favorable. Armor (except the head) is twice the IS "health" (without quirks, those are pesky things this time of year). So you need to apply 2/3 of damage to the component before the component will go down. Thus for arbitrary 80 armor + 40 IS component (aka heavy heavy or light assault CT) there are 8 AC/10 shots and 12 LBX shots to strip armor. E.g. even if RNG hates you and give you no crits AC/10 will finish that component before the LBX will eat away armor.

Now, crits.
For LBX there is 33% no-crit chance, 39% single crit chance, 20% double crit chance and 8% triple crit chance, total 100% of al outcomes of each pellet. If some some random number rolls for a double crit (numbers between 71 and 92 on d100 if you like it dice style) then for that pellet there is two 4 dmg crits applied to random filled crti-slots within a hit-component. This damage goes to equippement only and is not apllied to anything else. Yes, not applied to anythin else. For 7 pellets under 200 m on a single component it yeilds to 0/5.46/5.6/3.36 additional damage to equippement. E.g. 14.42 dmg to equippement per shot. E.d. this guaranteed to take in a single shot anything lef alone there except AC/20. If there is anything else, then chances to kill something are drastically going down (too lazy at the moment to give a table of chances, but maybe a bit later in another post) as damage is not transferred between filled crits after beeing rolled and applied simultaneously. E.g. even with crit rolled there are reasonable chances that no equippement will get destroyed.

There is a 15% damage transfer from damage to equippement to damage to structure. This is 2,163 addintional dmg to structure above 7 done by pellets that totals to 9.163 dmg per shot.

Now goes AC/10. Chances are: 58% no-crit chance, 25% single crit chance, 12% double crit chance and 5% triple crit chance, total 100% of al outcomes. Additional damage with those chances on average is 0/2.5/2.4/1.5 that totals to 6.4 dmg on average shot. In real this leads to 10 dmg per crit. If you get this crit you anyway kill something on that component. This even adds somthing around 0.2-0.5 dmg from ammo explosions, but I'll skip that.
Now damage 15% transfer leads to additional 0,96 dmg to structure above 10 dmg done directly. Again LBX is at a disadvantage.

Now, dual LBX for 22 tons and 12 critslots (ammo is not factored) give you 12 dmg per 2.5 seconds (that is 4.8 dmg/s) against armored component, and 7.33 dmg pre second against unarmored components.
AC/20+MG for 14.5 tons and 11 critslots (ammo is not factored) give you 20 dmg every 4 seconds (that is 5 dmg/s with MG not firing) against armor and 5.48 dmg per second (MG not firing) against structure. MG has 4.32 damage to equippement per shot (43 per second is PGI really set their rate to 10, not 8 shots per second) and addiitonal 0,658 dmg per shot to structure (again 6,68 dmg per second if PGI really have MG at 10 round per second as they stated).

LBX looses to single AC/10, dual LBX looses to AC/20+MG. Why you state LBX is good? You like LBX, that's Ok, I like them too, but I cannot say they are in a good shape or there is any reason to take them other then 'damn, I like'em'.

EDIT: typos

Edited by pyrocomp, 08 August 2016 - 12:13 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Average chances to kill a 10 hp equippement item (anything except GR, ECM and AC/20) with one LBX shot on an unarmored component with 7 pellets hitting said component.


NB: for the AC/10 those chances are 42% always. Not so, getting updated table.
The probabilities to kill an fresh 10 or less hp equippement item (anything except AC/20) in a component with less than 10 armor on it (not necesserilly exposed) via a single AC/10 shot.


AC/10 is more effective than LBX against an equippement item that occupies less than half of all filled critslots in a component. E.g. it is more effective against boats (which are most cases, if I get current meta correct) and ammo.

PS: This table refers to fresh components only.

EDIT: updated table to correct values (messed a little at first). Can dive out math behind to calculate probabilities for any other situation.

Edited by pyrocomp, 09 August 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

That didn't format very well.

[pyrocomp]

El Bandito, on 07 August 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

Dealing 8 damage on a location at only sub 200 meters for 11 tons of weapon is pretty bad. Sure, there is the equipment crit factor after the armor is gone, but in matches where there are competent players participating, they immediately call out exposed sections and the said section gets destroyed ASAP, which means no need for LBX. In the underhive matches though, anything goes, really.

Nope, those chances do not matter as it turns out.

Brain Cancer, on 08 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

That didn't format very well.

Corected that.
Btw, before you save it it looks well.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

NB: for the AC/10 those chances are 42% always.

Interestingly enough that's also about the odds in TT of getting an equipment destroying crit period regardless of damage.

7 pellets at 42% each pretty much would guarantee things getting wrecked if applied to MWO.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Daily reminder that LBX still needs a buff.

[pyrocomp]

Dakota1000, on 09 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Daily reminder that LBX still needs a buff.

It is even worse if comparision is done against reasonable build.

[Antares102]

Dakota1000, on 09 August 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Daily reminder that LBX still needs a buff.

What he said. Now its my turn.

Edited by Antares102, 10 August 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Antares102, on 10 August 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

What he said. Now its my turn.

We should keep this thread active until something gets done.

LBX has been needing a fix for a long time, much like many other weapons. We need people to keep constantly asking for a fix rather than jumping onto the next hot topic. At the very least have a PGI member come in and say they'll take a look at it.

[Andi Nagasia]

Dakota1000, on 10 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

We should keep this thread active until something gets done.

LBX has been needing a fix for a long time, much like many other weapons. We need people to keep constantly asking for a fix rather than jumping onto the next hot topic. At the very least have a PGI member come in and say they'll take a look at it.

well ive Shot Russ a Tweet so he can look at it,
perhaps we will get an Official Response soon,

[Andi Nagasia]

Talked with Russ on Twitter, just got a Response,

Twitter0 said:

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 1h1 hour ago

@AndiNagasia been thinking about more pellets or more pellet dmg for a while but at this point will let energy draw settle in then assess

they are looking to increase Damage, but want to wait for Power Draw to settle in first,

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 August 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Talked with Russ on Twitter, just got a Response,

they are looking to increase Damage, but want to wait for Power Draw to settle in first,

I suppose everyone's nagging, including that of mine, has some effect.