114 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Tarl Cabot, on 11 August 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

The only way I can see PGI doing something to stop pure gen rushes/kill very little in its current setting would be to make the gens indestructible til x-amount of mechs have been destroyed, x-amount of time has passed or both. I put generic mechs since PGI could make it just defenders, attackers or a combo of both.

That's just too artificially gamey for my taste. I'd rather PGI actually create good game modes and tie them together by adding a real planetary campaign system while they're at it. There are enough ideas floating around the forums for this. But either PGI is just hopelessly incapable, is infected with the "not invented here" syndrome, or even both. I suspect the last.

MaxFool, on 13 August 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Give gens and omega lots more hit points, like maybe double, but have them lose percentage of hit points for every defending mech that is killed. ..

Also too gamey.

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2016 - 08:18 PM.

[Mystere]

feeWAIVER, on 12 August 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

~Leone,
Yes, I do realize that... but I really think you're missing the forest for the trees here.
When I came back to this game, some about 8 months ago, your forum posts and comments helped a lot in getting me acclimated back into the game.. So I will reply to you specifically with the utmost respect.

You do realize that the skill ceiling for gen rushing is very very low, yes? Teams that cannot win Defenses or Counter Attacks, can win on Attacks by just gen rushing.

Alternately, the burden of skill in defending a gen rush is disproportionately high in this one specific game mode, because one gen rushing wave can easily seal the deal for the entire match. It requires not only that ability to take down 12 mechs much quicker, but also prior knowledge that you are going to be gen rushed in the first place based purely on past experience with units that crutch on it.

If we're talking about overall game balance, this is a problem, and we need to be intellectually honest with ourselves and each other.

Now, one could argue that the ability to gen rush serves as a proverbial 'noob tube' so even new and less skilled players/units can compete and feel like they can win sometimes, and that would be a decent argument.. but I don't believe encouraging cheese tactics is good for the balance or fun factor of the game mode.

What do you accomplish with gen rushing? You end the game early, with everyone getting less play time, loyalty, and cbills. Then everyone goes back to Queue to wait for another drop. It's just not good for the game mode.


The solutions to this are simple:

A. Increase Hitpoints of Gens and Omega- because now they melt like butter.
B. Repair Gens in between waves- to allow a second breath after a devastating gen rush.

Just as background, the "problem" of generator rushing was "solved" the weekend after the invasion mode was first released. Heck, even PUGs eventually learned to stop it. I've been in PUG/skittles teams that successfully stopped 12-mans (not good ones I presume) from doing so.

Yes it sucks when it happens to you, but that's the tactic produced by the game mode. Increasing their hitpoints again, after several buffs have already been made (increased hitpoints, indestructible covers, only specific angles of attack possible) is just pointless in my book.

Ultimately, the better solution is to have more and better game modes that have actual depth (or a planetary campaign system providing said depth by tying several game modes together).

Is PGI up to the task? I'll let you be the judge of that.

[Daidachi]

Mystere, on 14 August 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

Is PGI up to the task? I'll let you buy a mechpack..

FTFY.

[feeWAIVER]

Mystere, on 14 August 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

Just as background, the "problem" of generator rushing was "solved" the weekend after the invasion mode was first released. Heck, even PUGs eventually learned to stop it. I've been in PUG/skittles teams that successfully stopped 12-mans (not good ones I presume) from doing so.

Yes it sucks when it happens to you, but that's the tactic produced by the game mode. Increasing their hitpoints again, after several buffs have already been made (increased hitpoints, indestructible covers, only specific angles of attack possible) is just pointless in my book.

Ultimately, the better solution is to have more and better game modes that have actual depth (or a planetary campaign system providing said depth by tying several game modes together).

Is PGI up to the task? I'll let you be the judge of that.

Having "more and better game modes" doesn't solve the skill ceiling imbalance with FP Attack Phase gen rushing. Period.
And no offense, but you have a hidden tier, 0.49 kdr, and over 15,000 forum posts, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't bump your count on balance discussions. Thanks.

[Mystere]

feeWAIVER, on 14 August 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

Having "more and better game modes" doesn't solve the skill ceiling imbalance with FP Attack Phase gen rushing. Period.
And no offense, but you have a hidden tier, 0.49 kdr, and over 15,000 forum posts, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't bump your count on balance discussions. Thanks.

Ooh! Stat shaming. How classy of you. And you meant no offense. Sure.

It's a game mode design problem in particular, and in general a problem with CW, being the mere skeleton that it is.

But sure, buff the generators some more, after several buffs already. It will surely help make CW more interesting to the general populace.

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2016 - 10:04 PM.

[exiledangel]

gen rushing is a acceptable means of winning just like the defenders coming over the closed gates and attacking the attackers before there set. if your team can't stop a gen rush maybe 12 sniper assault mech defense is your problem when getting gen rush.

the one thing I noticed is the clans are the ones whining about it but they have the best anti light mechs in the game with the streak crow , streak dog ,small Pulse nova. maybe taking those 85+tons beast the clans like so much is stopping the from taking mechs to stop a light rush.

I miss fighting liao and marik because both sides expect a gen rush so they sacrifice snipers and brawlers for 1-2 anti lights mechs and that is a enough to stop a gen rush in its tracks ya they might get 1 or 2 gens.

I would also point out that if you stop a light rush75% of the time the defenders win.

whining about the game mode is not going to do anything about it setting your 12 man u to defend vs a possible light rush is just good drop calling. if you don't wan to set up a anti gen rush mech or 2 and you get gen rush you got out drop called by the other team.

I think this quote sums it up.

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. if he is ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, Appear where you are not expected.
Sun Tzu, the art of war.

so you can't stop a light rush you were unprepared to stop him. A good Drop caller will defend Vs all possible attack strategy which includes gen rushing.

edit had to add one more quote.
you can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended

sun-tzu

Edited by exiledangel, 15 August 2016 - 05:20 AM.

[MaxFool]

Did anyone even talk about light rushes? Gen rushes in early waves are not generally done with lights anymore.

[Husker Dude]

MaxFool, on 15 August 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

Did anyone even talk about light rushes? Gen rushes in early waves are not generally done with lights anymore.

I posted about this last week or so, but they certainly are, at least when Clan is attacking (specifically Ghost Bear).
I'm sure it's seen far less when IS is on attack, since Clan streaks are devastating against IS lights and there's not really a comparable counter for IS, but the GB assault lance distraction/light rush is extremely common lately, even against skittle defenses.

[Tom Sawyer]

Imagine a game mode where there was more than gens to be rushed. Imagine a game mode with multiple objectives spread out over a large map. Imagine a game mode where there was more than just a channeled flow of go here and fight there.

[Mystere]

Tom Sawyer, on 15 August 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Imagine a game mode where there was more than gens to be rushed. Imagine a game mode with multiple objectives spread out over a large map. Imagine a game mode where there was more than just a channeled flow of go here and fight there.

Now imagine such a game mode tied together with other different game modes by a planetary campaign system.

[exiledangel]

@ tom sawyer and mystere you guys have a great idea. so I went out and bought a lottery ticket I have better odds winning the jack pot then FP ever being like that

[Mystere]

exiledangel, on 15 August 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

@ tom sawyer and mystere you guys have a great idea. so I went out and bought a lottery ticket I have better odds winning the jack pot then FP ever being like that

Good luck with that lottery ticket then.

Edited by Mystere, 15 August 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[multisoul]

there is no such thing as gen rushing since many updates. what is happening now is a mayor defense fail
if you are intercepting the enemy and focusing fire (also hitting) there should not be 12 healthy mechs inside your base

[Crockdaddy]

SmokeGuar, on 06 August 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

I think you are misunderstanding the point.
IS units rush gens and primarily ignore mechs.
Clan units get kill lead and then drop gens.

This is because IS boats take much greater punishment before dying, Clan boats simply cannot do gen rushes the same way.

Not to state the obvious but Clan Mechs have greater range. Use it. Clan mechs XL engines don't kill the mech when exploding. Clan Mechs the majority of which (non assault) move at 87 KPH use that to your advantage.

Tom Sawyer, on 15 August 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Imagine a game mode where there was more than gens to be rushed. Imagine a game mode with multiple objectives spread out over a large map. Imagine a game mode where there was more than just a channeled flow of go here and fight there.

I too have played Battlefield on both Rush and Conquest. I believe many other games have multiple objectives. Weird.

[DarklightCA]

multisoul, on 11 September 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

there is no such thing as gen rushing since many updates. what is happening now is a mayor defense fail
if you are intercepting the enemy and focusing fire (also hitting) there should not be 12 healthy mechs inside your base

Actually unless you are a organized 8-12 man than stopping 4 waves of mechs that choose not to fight back and use all their waves to rush generators is pretty hard to stop. Some maps it's easier for the defense to deal with that but a lot of maps doesn't offer much space between the gates and the generators to where you can properly kill them all before they make their way to the generators.

Which is why gen rushing is regarded as such a cheap tactic. I don't have a problem with the idea of gen rushing as generators are objectives but I have a problem with all the people that use it as their go-to strategy not even bothering to atleast try and fight or win by other means. Especially when it's other organized groups that do it.

[fbj]

People still play this game?

[Stormbringer13]

SmokeGuar, on 06 August 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

I think you are misunderstanding the point.
IS units rush gens and primarily ignore mechs.
Clan units get kill lead and then drop gens.

This is because IS boats take much greater punishment before dying, Clan boats simply cannot do gen rushes the same way.

I've defended quite a few times against Clan Gen rushes, so you must not be dropping with the same crews.

Drunk Canuck, on 07 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

It makes you look like a coward who doesn't want to fight good competition. It's amazing how ironic this community is. People cry about getting whipped by better teams, so rather than stepping up and working on their fighting skills, they cheese the objectives and ignore the fact that they are going to get sub 250k C-Bills when they ultimately lose to a team that can and wants to fight.

It's called tactics. And making the most of poor game design.

What I don't understand is if we are rushing the base, blowing up generators and the big gun, why not just aim a bunch of Long Toms at the base and kill two birds with one stone.

Edited by Stormbringer13, 12 September 2016 - 03:57 PM.

[nagdamnit]

Count Zero 74, on 08 August 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Btw, I found this in the 420 recruitment thread:

"Recruiting is invite only for the moment. Do 1500 dmg on 4 mechs in Faction Play on the regular, and you can be considered. =D"

Which is quite funny imo cause most of them struggle to break a 1000 whenever I play against them. As before PM for screenshots.

I lol'd

[Crockdaddy]

fbj, on 12 September 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

People still play this game?

Not me. I play Ark, BF 1 Beta, CIV, Stellaris, Warhammer type games ... and every few months MWO / forum warrior.

[MischiefSC]

Playing The Center with Primitive Plus right now.

I like the map better. Also.... effing *huge*.

RimWorld is a lot of fun too. Subnautica is probably the best of the 'little known' survival games though it's only SP. Planet Explorers runs a close second and it does do multiplayer, though a very coop environment.

Bannerlord though. All other things in gaming are just making time until Bannerlord is released.