Lore wise, it's also the armour from the 20 damage that makes the target lose damage, not the AC20 round itself.
Suddenly, the mech is a ton lighter on 1 side, and the gyro needs to control that (or the pilot, hence the roll)
These things jump off ledges and run in circles on rough terrain while shooting. Maybe one of the authors that never went to school made up some silly reason, but it's pretty far from actual physics.
Andi Nagasia, on 13 August 2016 - 09:05 PM, said:
lets look at than, a 12GA, Slug, weighs about 1.7Ounces,
thats less than double the Weight of a 22, but lets say its doubled,
thats then .08 Percent, still under a single Percent,
also the Girls Stance wasnt Right, her feet are so close together,
Ether she never Fired a shotgun before, or she was perilously doing it for the video,
in this same respect your Engineers wouldnt install an AC20 in your RVN with out the Proper Dampeners,
Check those numbers. A 22 weighs about 27 grains/.062oz, a 12 gauge slug weighs 383 grains/.875oz. Those were just two common bullets I chose, but that 22 is less than 1/14 the weight.
As for the recoil thing, buffers and muzzle brakes work wonders, but even without them any person with even terrible balance isn't getting knocked over from shooting about any gun out there. I had a 12 gauge double barrel pistol and firing 2 slugs at once once handed was really no big deal. Most of these people arguing about this or that can't have background in firearms with what they're saying.
.
Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:
I think a .22 caliber shell is a bit of an understatement there, that's more akin to an ac2. I think it'd work out a bit more like this:
The reason she fell wasnt because of the size of the gun, it's because she was standing wrong. Raven's, or any other mech, won't ever stand wrong. They're war machines designed to fight.
When we were growing up, my sister at 10 could handle a full sized (long barrel) 12 gauge shotgun target shooting. It's simply a matter of using it correctly.
Because even with fairly big guns, recoil is actually pretty minor; it's just sudden. If you're prepared for it, braced with a correct stance, it's trivial.
Finally, you mention "14 ton gun" like that's a contributing factor in your favour. It's not. The gun doesn't create the recoil, the shell does. The larger and heavier the gun, the less it's going to move: the same amount of force is acting on the gun as on the bullet. But regardless, the guns mass is part of the mechs mass.
My math remains correct: less than 2m/s backwards movement on the mech assuming no friction or active compensation - and both will apply.
Seriously, do you never get tired of embarrassing yourself?
Check those numbers. A 22 weighs about 27 grains/.062oz, a 12 gauge slug weighs 383 grains/.875oz. Those were just two common bullets I chose, but that 22 is less than 1/14 the weight.
As for the recoil thing, buffers and muzzle brakes work wonders, but even without them any person with even terrible balance isn't getting knocked over from shooting about any gun out there. I had a 12 gauge double barrel pistol and firing 2 slugs at once once handed was really no big deal. Most of these people arguing about this or that can't have background in firearms with what they're saying.
ya i didnt have the Individual numbers, i was getting the shell/Round weight from the internet,
taking the raw weight of the box of ammo, then dividing it by the number of shells,
i dont have any .22 or 12GA ammo, so i was using External sources,
When we were growing up, my sister at 10 could handle a full sized (long barrel) 12 gauge shotgun target shooting. It's simply a matter of using it correctly.
That's exactly why I don't date Canadian or American women
First of all I would NOT say that they are "SO OP" or its an exploit to use them.
As a primarily light pilot i will say they are uniquely strong. If you are scouting by yourself and you come across one, 9 times out of 10 you have no hope of winning a 1v1 if he's fresh and if you try to run it's dubious as to whether you'll survive. It would be nice if they had just one weakness but they are just all around too solid. very tough to contend with as inner sphere unless ur in a higher weight class.
edit -- after seeing other saying lights should be brought up to cheetah level instead of nerfing ACH
I agree with this sentiment, either way something closer to parity should try to be achieved. if you do it by quirks or giving other lights better hitboxes or rollback rescaling whatever.
They are probably tougher than they should be for the weight class but its not to a redonkulous extent.
There will always be a "best in the game" mech or so people will say.
Sometimes nerfs suck, some hurt more than others but they're essential to a game's longevity.
extra credits discuss it briefly for those who are unfamiliar with the frequently misunderstood & misrepresented topic.
Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:
And yet there was so much more to TT than there is to MWO.
Yes, because PGI refuses to get more interesting things in here, I'm still waiting on Arrow IV to give me true artillery.
Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:
To ignore the Fluff and LORE now would be a big mistake.
Ignoring a certain piece of fluff is different from ignoring all lore. A lot of BT fluff just doesn't make sense, so the idea of ignoring it for the betterment of the game in context of an FPS seems like a good choice to me.
Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:
Funny thing is the same thing you said about the girl also applies to a light mech. It only weighs 35 tonnes, and most of that weight isn't muscle.
I'm not a physicist so I can't tell you exactly where you went wrong with the math, but it looks like you haven't accounted for the recoil imparted to a 14 tonne weapon or something. The cartridge that knocked that poor girl down when she fired it doesn't weigh that much and isn't that big, but the gun is.
No, nothing was left out. You don't have to be a physicist, it's conservation of momentum. Mac20*Vac20 = Mraven*Vraven. You know the mass of the AC20 round (1/7th of a ton), the Velocity of the AC20 round (650 m/s), and the mass of the Raven (35 tons). Solve for the velocity of the Raven. Basic math is all that is needed. This assumes no friction between the Raven and the ground. With the amount of friction you probable won't see any amount of Raven movement other than a slight tilt backwards.
No, nothing was left out. You don't have to be a physicist, it's conservation of momentum. Mac20*Vac20 = Mraven*Vraven. You know the mass of the AC20 round (1/7th of a ton), the Velocity of the AC20 round (650 m/s), and the mass of the Raven (35 tons). Solve for the velocity of the Raven. Basic math is all that is needed. This assumes no friction between the Raven and the ground. With the amount of friction you probable won't see any amount of Raven movement other than a slight tilt backwards.
In that ton of AC/20 ammo there is not only 7 shells but also there is casing (even a clip, if i remember correctly), feeder, powder. At least. So 1/8-1/9 th of a ton look better. And this leads even less momentum to counter. With recoil dampers that actually lower the force and prolong its action ... Raven should not move at all after this, but can stumble on the run if it was hit by such projectile (or not, depend on the pilot). Raven firing AC/20 (if firing was assisted by FCS, thus ) won't even stumble on the run.
As to the video... Ahem. The girl fell not from the reciol itself (that was low), but from her own reaction to the recoil. But thats a different story.
UPD: AC/20 shell has momentum of ~85 000 kg*m/s. With recoil dampers stopping the AC/20 barrel for 1 second the recoil force will be 85 kN. The in-game graph states that Raven with 255 engine has something like 80 m/s^2 (thats 8 gs, btw) acceleration from full stop. To accelerate 35 tons at 80 m/s^2 the 2.8 MN force is needed. And there is no skidding. That Raven won't even wobble or rock. Most brobably even on the run. Huh...
It bares mentioning that in TT btech there are only 5 shots per tonne of AC20 ammo(not that that would make any difference to your backyard neckbearded physics calculations, you do realize that, among other things you have neglected, that if a fuel tank is made twice as big it will hold 8 times the amount of fuel?), and also that the projectile velocity of 6 hundred whatevers is a MWO-Only-Specific value that PGI has made up and uses to "balance" the weapon with(as it directly affects the amount of lead-in for moving targets).
We're talking about a weapon that is the equivalent of a main gun on a modern day Battleship. Try telling the operator of one of these that "it's just like a .22 and isn't responsible for making the Battleship list in the water every time it fires"...
Even Mobile Howitzers in the Vietnam war, would "break the back" of the carrier, the very first time they were fired.
In the words of R. Lee Emery; "That, is NOT your grand daddies shotgun"
Yeonne Greene, on 12 August 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:
2. Assault and Heavy 'Mechs are Cheating in the game. In reality-based scenario's having a bunch of high-recoil weapons mounted up near the top and fired in unison would cause it to topple over or at least stagger from the sudden, sharp application of torque at the end of a long moment arm with an inherently unstable base. They can also mount these guns in flimsy humanoid arms, which by nature of having so many joints would actually make such a thing untenable. They can also bring LRMs, which are so tiny that you get 180 of these things capable of four times the range of SRMs despite the latter being physically larger. It may as well be powered by Alien UFO fuel. Finally, they can boat Large Lasers, which are gamma ray lasers, which means they shouldn't work at all in the atmosphere except to give everybody cancer because wavelengths over UV just scatter unless it's in a vacuum. Your Large Lasers should only work on HPG and Vitric.
Sorry Yeonne, looks like the Mob has spoken and shut this idea down, people are just too attached to Duct-Taping the largest weapons system in the game on the head of any mech that has a machine-gun slot... If a Raven with an AC/20 can't suffer negative effects from massive recoil, neither would it be proper for larger mechs to either([Sarcasm{after all an AC20 is just like a 9mm hand gun, right, right guys?}Sarcasm]). This(a more in-depth recoil game mechanic) could have saved an entire Heat Friendly weapons system from the Heat Nerf 2.0 but never mind (gotta ask, how much possible "Power Draw" could be involved in letting loose a firing pin on a spring?).
Thanks for bringing it up in any case.
Unfortunately for the Arctic Cheeta and Kodiak, they're both up for the nerf bat... Quite a prize for being top performer in a competition eh?
Edited by Drunken Skull, 14 August 2016 - 04:19 PM.
Lets debate reality in a sci-fi fantasy game... Seriously in all these debates about recoil your not even thinking about the whole different planet/gravity/temperature thing. The whole concept of everything is out of whack from reality so its a moot point. Things in this game are based on a GAME balance issue, not reality balance. So yeah, just stop....
Well, if gravity increased, the friction would be more and if gravity decreased, the friction would be less.
Why do all modern games have a physics engine?
Completely agree with the problem that " Things in this game are based on a GAME balance issue, not reality balance. So yeah, just stop.... "
So, why bring in hearsay and things made up in the novels to sound cool and say that they should be the reality in a FPS game? After all, we are discussing an FPS's balance issues, and not tabletop.
Drunken Skull, on 14 August 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:
It bares mentioning that in TT btech there are only 5 shots per tonne of AC20 ammo(not that that would make any difference to your backyard neckbearded physics calculations, you do realize that, among other things you have neglected, that if a fuel tank is made twice as big it will hold 8 times the amount of fuel?), and also that the projectile velocity of 6 hundred whatevers is a MWO-Only-Specific value that PGI has made up and uses to "balance" the weapon with(as it directly affects the amount of lead-in for moving targets).
Unfortunately for the Arctic Cheeta and Kodiak, they're both up for the nerf bat... Quite a prize for being top performer in a competition eh?
1) You clearly underestimate how little of a difference the increase of mass from 142 kg to 200 kg makes on a 35,000 ton object that we call a battlemech. As clearly pointed out, the mech will start moving at a speed of around 3 m/s on a perfectly smooth surface. On say, concrete, it would probably not even move a metre backwards. Which in the grand scheme of things, like a human moving a cm
2) KDK-3 got nerfbatted twice -- once with the KDK-3 losing agility quirks and then the blanket UAC10 nerf. The KDK-3 is still the most dangerous assault mech in the game, so were those warranted or not?
Edited by Keshav Murali, 14 August 2016 - 06:06 PM.
Drunken Skull, on 14 August 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:
It bares mentioning that in TT btech there are only 5 shots per tonne of AC20 ammo(not that that would make any difference to your backyard neckbearded physics calculations, you do realize that, among other things you have neglected, that if a fuel tank is made twice as big it will hold 8 times the amount of fuel?), and also that the projectile velocity of 6 hundred whatevers is a MWO-Only-Specific value that PGI has made up and uses to "balance" the weapon with(as it directly affects the amount of lead-in for moving targets).
We're talking about a weapon that is the equivalent of a main gun on a modern day Battleship. Try telling the operator of one of these that "it's just like a .22 and isn't responsible for making the Battleship list in the water every time it fires"...
Even Mobile Howitzers in the Vietnam war, would "break the back" of the carrier, the very first time they were fired.
In the words of R. Lee Emery; "That, is NOT your grand daddies shotgun"
"neckbeard physics" with some actual math > random guy claiming that a ~140kg (most likely much less) shell being fired from a 35,000kg mech should cause said mech to go flying backwards at the same speed of the shell because he says so...
Also making a fuel tank twice as big will make it hold....twice as much.
You're thinking of making something twice as tall while keeping scale. That is when you get 8 times as much. But that is because the object is actually 8 times the volume, even though its surface area is only 4 times as much.
Drunken Skull, on 14 August 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:
It bares mentioning that in TT btech there are only 5 shots per tonne of AC20 ammo(not that that would make any difference to your backyard neckbearded physics calculations, you do realize that, among other things you have neglected, that if a fuel tank is made twice as big it will hold 8 times the amount of fuel?), and also that the projectile velocity of 6 hundred whatevers is a MWO-Only-Specific value that PGI has made up and uses to "balance" the weapon with(as it directly affects the amount of lead-in for moving targets).
Dude, just stop. The more you talk, the less intelligent you sound. Volume has not even started to become relevant to this discussion, so I have no idea where you got this from.
Yes, there are only five shots per tonne in TT, also irrelevant as there are only ten shots per tonne for an AC10 yet here we have twenty to account for the doubling of armor values.
650m/s is "MWO-Only-Specific" that PGI "has made up?" Dude, are fncking high?
The M107 HEDP 155mm howitzer shell weighs in at 41.86kg. The recoil produced from the firing of a single MACS charge (Charge 1) at 0 degree QE is 15.1m/s against the hydraulic recoil dampening system. The muzzle velocity of that round is ~450m/s.
Here is a video of one of my friends howitzers (the woodland one) and mine (the tan one) firing a Charge 2 fire mission (in case you don't know, Charge 2 is twice the powder charge). The muzzle velocity of the round is about 690m/s with a Charge 2 and the M109A6 weighs in at just over 27 tonnes.
A Charge 1 in the real world is about 2.5kgs to get a 42kg projectile moving at 450m/s. A Charge two will get it moving 690m/s, which means that the powder charge is about 32% the weight of the projectile.
So back to one tonne of AC20 ammo, the projectile weight would be ~98kg and the appropriate powder charge around 45kg. And that's assuming separate powder charge and projectile and not a fully self contained shell. Which is unlikely as having separate shells from charges is a needlessly complex way of doing things. So a casing would be another 25% of the weight (by comparing the weights of modern cannon ammunition) so now we're looking at 60kg projo, a 35kg casing, 45kgs of propellant.
Still want to say a Raven would fall on it's *** from firing an AC20?
Quote
We're talking about a weapon that is the equivalent of a main gun on a modern day Battleship. Try telling the operator of one of these that "it's just like a .22 and isn't responsible for making the Battleship list in the water every time it fires"...
Even Mobile Howitzers in the Vietnam war, would "break the back" of the carrier, the very first time they were fired.
[citation needed]*
*Don't bother, I'm artillery in the real world and you clearly are poorly read regarding ballistics.
Quote
In the words of R. Lee Emery; "That, is NOT your grand daddies shotgun"
Context of said quote is in regards to how battle rifles handle differently from hunting weapons, 1/10 for the effort.
EDIT:
Also UM-R60L would like a word with you.
Edited by Saint Scarlett Johan, 14 August 2016 - 07:28 PM.
Now that I have reasonable fps i have spent the weekend hunting down lights in a JNR F and the ACH is easy game, just dont let it get behind you and alpha your torso before you know its there
Drunken Skull, on 14 August 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:
It bares mentioning that in TT btech there are only 5 shots per tonne of AC20 ammo(not that that would make any difference to your backyard neckbearded physics calculations, you do realize that, among other things you have neglected, that if a fuel tank is made twice as big it will hold 8 times the amount of fuel?), and also that the projectile velocity of 6 hundred whatevers is a MWO-Only-Specific value that PGI has made up and uses to "balance" the weapon with(as it directly affects the amount of lead-in for moving targets).
We're talking about a weapon that is the equivalent of a main gun on a modern day Battleship. Try telling the operator of one of these that "it's just like a .22 and isn't responsible for making the Battleship list in the water every time it fires"...
Even Mobile Howitzers in the Vietnam war, would "break the back" of the carrier, the very first time they were fired.
In the words of R. Lee Emery; "That, is NOT your grand daddies shotgun"
Sorry Yeonne, looks like the Mob has spoken and shut this idea down, people are just too attached to Duct-Taping the largest weapons system in the game on the head of any mech that has a machine-gun slot... If a Raven with an AC/20 can't suffer negative effects from massive recoil, neither would it be proper for larger mechs to either([Sarcasm{after all an AC20 is just like a 9mm hand gun, right, right guys?}Sarcasm]). This(a more in-depth recoil game mechanic) could have saved an entire Heat Friendly weapons system from the Heat Nerf 2.0 but never mind (gotta ask, how much possible "Power Draw" could be involved in letting loose a firing pin on a spring?).
Thanks for bringing it up in any case.
Unfortunately for the Arctic Cheeta and Kodiak, they're both up for the nerf bat... Quite a prize for being top performer in a competition eh?
Please stop. You're embarrassing yourself. And that's coming from someone who posts anime gifs on forums regularly.
12
Mcgral18, on 13 August 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:
