521 replies to this topic

[Drunken Skull]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

I wasn't aware an AC20 shell weighed 35 tons. I wonder how they squeeze 7 into one ton of ammo... that defies physics.

It's not so much the weight of the shell but the amount of explosive required to lob a 143 kg shell out of a cannon that weighs 14 tons and takes up 10 critical slots, so your'e talking about a 14 tonne piece of recoil to stabilize there.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

It's not so much the weight of the shell but the amount of explosive required to lob a 143 kg shell out of a cannon that weighs 14 tons and takes up 10 critical slots...

So you don't understand conservation of momentum then, is what you are saying? In short, 1/245th of velocity imparted on the AC20 shell will be imparted on the Raven, assuming no non-conservative forces involved and the Raven weighs 35 tons and the AC20 shell weighs ~1/7 ton.

[FupDup]

AnarchyBurger, on 12 August 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

Jesus god almighty! Anyone who thinks any light is op needs to stop playing with a goddam joystick steering wheel.

Fixed.

[Drunken Skull]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 August 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

2. Assault and Heavy 'Mechs are Cheating in the game. In reality-based scenario's having a bunch of high-recoil weapons mounted up near the top and fired in unison would cause it to topple over or at least stagger from the sudden, sharp application of torque at the end of a long moment arm with an inherently unstable base. They can also mount these guns in flimsy humanoid arms, which by nature of having so many joints would actually make such a thing untenable. They can also bring LRMs, which are so tiny that you get 180 of these things capable of four times the range of SRMs despite the latter being physically larger. It may as well be powered by Alien UFO fuel. Finally, they can boat Large Lasers, which are gamma ray lasers, which means they shouldn't work at all in the atmosphere except to give everybody cancer because wavelengths over UV just scatter unless it's in a vacuum. Your Large Lasers should only work on HPG and Vitric.

^ It was your mate that brought it up so not sure why he's right but I'm wrong for agreeing with him.... I think some of you are just out for blood at this stage...

[Clownwarlord]

um no ... is it the best light? yeah probably

the only other contenders for top light are jenners, firestarters, and raven. as for such I would say the Arctic Cheetah is better than these because the others which are IS mechs (other than maybe Jenner IICs), and what that means is IS XL engine kills mech when side torso is gone. while the clan mechs having Clan XL are still rock'n.

So yeah better like the majority of clans over IS mechs.

[FupDup]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think some of you are just out for blood at this stage...

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

LET THE FORUMS BUUUURN!



(Skip to 1:40)

Edited by FupDup, 13 August 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FupDup, on 13 August 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

LET THE FORUMS BUUUURN!

NO I'M AT WORK! I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO MY MEMES D:<

[Tarogato]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

"run around" which is all you guys can do in a kiddie pool sized map. Interception isn't an issue cause you're still thinking you will be in a space the size of a bathtub. Say the convoy is 10 clicks out headed west at 100kph along a highway. You're not getting anywhere near it in time even in medium mechs...

See how this is one simple example of a situation that is beneficial to light mechs but no other classes? It's the sort of PVE that would make light mechs fun. They simply aren't as they are, they have no freedom and no real purpose in a bathtub Deathmatch. You yourselves have admitted how hard you have to work to be "Gud" at piloting them in the current scenario we have now.

Another example, you are tasked with killing an enemy airbase, but you have to get there before all their assets take off and start coming for you. Again, the speed of the light will win the day, larger mechs won't get there in time and will have to contend with being bombed and straffed by all the aerospace that took off whilst being pecked at and hounded by Helicopters and the now alert base defense troop.

These aren't fanciful dreams, they are stock mission examples from MW2 onwards.

You just don't get it, do you?

MWO IS NOT A PVE TT SIMULATOR. This is World of Tanks with 'mechs. Get over it - it's never going to be anything more than that. If this isn't the game you want to play, then I kindly ask you to because what you're looking for is not here and never will be here.


"Kiddie pool sized map." What do you really want? A 25-minute walking simulator with 4 minutes of combat? Do you really think 70,000+ other people playing this game actually want that? You seem to agree that lights need to be useful in some way - so give them objectives that are so far away that only lights can reach them in time. That is both an incredibly lazy solution and demands a fundamental change in the design philosophy of this game. Also, do you really think that making the maps large enough will prevent lights being "uber-skill stabbie in tha backie" mechs? No. It would just take longer for the lights to get around the back and do their uber-skill stabbies in the backies. In order to change that behaviour, you'd have to nerf lights, as a whole, into the ground so hard that they can't fight other classes of mech. Is that what you want? Maybe... just maybe.... that kind of made sense in past mechwarrior games where the emphasis was on the single player campaigns and not to mention the mech models were simpler and easier to produce. But consider how long it takes PGI artists to concept, model, and texture mechs today at the high standard for detail that they consistently maintain... modeling a light mech for release into this game requires the same effort as modelling any other mech in the game from medium to assault. PGI has to make a return on investment. If lights were so mindboggling weak that people only used them when specific mission types required them to (just like past MW titles), then nobody would be purchasing light mechs and PGI would be losing money on producing them. Light mechs *must* be viable *in this game.* If you are convinced that light mechs are overpowered (meaning they are stronger than mediums, heavies, and assaults) in this game, presently, then for christ's sake, PROVE IT.

Once I get my hands on the L/M/H/A versions of the public quickplay leaderboards in spreadsheet form, I expect to see that the average matchscores and kill rates to be higher for the assaults and for the lights to be the weakest. Mark my words. If I'm wrong about this, then I owe you a very perplexed and thoroughly flummoxed expression on my face. But I can tell you right now, for everything I've ever put into a spreadsheet for this game, I've always seen the lights perform weakest in all possibly measurable metrics. It's a consistent trend that I challenge you to refute with non-anecdotal evidence.

Edited by Tarogato, 13 August 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[dario03]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 02:00 AM, said:

If a rifleman or catapult Alpha fires 2 gauss or 2 ac20, I think it's a fair expectation that they should run the very real risk of falling flat on their asses from the recoil, and in the case of the AC20 Raven, well the physics of the situation should speak for itself...

Physics doesn't post here much. Thats why I asked for you to show us the math.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 13 August 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

You just don't get it, do you?

MWO IS NOT A PVE TT SIMULATOR. This is World of Tanks with 'mechs. Get over it - it's never going to be anything more than that. If this isn't the game you want to play, then I kindly ask you to because what you're looking for is not here and never will be here.


"Kiddie pool sized map." What do you really want? A 25-minute walking simulator with 4 minutes of combat? Do you really think 70,000+ other people playing this game actually want that? You seem to agree that lights need to be useful in some way - so give them objectives that are so far away that only lights can reach them in time. That is both an incredibly lazy solution and demands a fundamental change in the design philosophy of this game. Also, do you really think that making the maps large enough will prevent lights being "uber-skill stabbie in tha backie" mechs? No. It would just take longer for the lights to get around the back and do their uber-skill stabbies in the backies. In order to change that behaviour, you'd have to nerf lights, as a whole, into the ground so hard that they can't fight other classes of mech. Is that what you want? Maybe... just maybe.... that kind of made sense in past mechwarrior games where the emphasis was on the single player campaigns and not to mention the mech models were simpler and easier to produce. But consider how long it takes PGI artists to concept, model, and texture mechs today at the high standard for detail that they consistently maintain... modeling a light mech for release into this game requires the same effort as modelling any other mech in the game from medium to assault. PGI has to make a return on investment. If lights were so mindboggling weak that people only used them when specific mission types required them to (just like past MW titles), then nobody would be purchasing light mechs and PGI would be losing money on producing them. Light mechs *must* be viable *in this game.* If you are convinced that light mechs are overpowered (meaning they are stronger than mediums, heavies, and assaults) in this game, presently, then for christ's sake, PROVE IT.

Once I get my hands on the L/M/H/A versions of the public quickplay leaderboards in spreadsheet form, I expect to see that the average matchscores and kill rates to be higher for the assaults and for the lights to be the weakest. Mark my words. If I'm wrong about this, then I owe you a very perplexed and thoroughly flummoxed expression on my face. But I can tell you right now, for everything I've ever put into a spreadsheet for this game, I've always seen the lights perform weakest in all possibly measurable metrics. It's a consistent trend that I challenge you to refute with non-anecdotal evidence.

Is it just possible that guy is our balance overlord's alt alias?

[DraconX3]

The coming changes to HEAT should fix alot of these problems.
The problem stems from these so called "Alpha Builds" were you just out alot of high output weapons on a mech all on button 1 and just spam that every couple shots, then back off and cool down and repeat =|
I think the game will be ALOT better with the changes proposed, were at a certain damage threshold of ALL weapons fired, you get a big heat spike, instead of how it currently is, which IMHO is how it should be, and more or less was in older games.

IMHO all together, the game needs to get a tad slower in terms of overall gameplay. Maps need to be made more attractive to be out in various spots instead of just doing the same ol thing, going to the exact same spots every single time.
Game is fun, but it needs some serious fine tuning here and there IMHO.

[Spleenslitta]

In my eyes the Cheetah has everything a perfect light mech is supposed to have....ok maybe not the entire
speed, ECM, JJ combo but it's kinda low on the firepower to make up for it.

The problem is when you compare it to other light mechs that have various issues in the form of
- Low engine cap.
- Weapon hardpoint starvation.
- I bet you guys can think of a heap of other things the Cheetah is superior in comparison to the other light mechs.

Or the Commando/Locust's unique problem in comparison to heavier light mechs.
They carry a needlessly large amount of heatsinks because of the default lowest possible number of heatsinks.
The Commandos ability to carry enough energy weapons to have a need for 10 double heatsinks is very questionable.

Edit: Yeah so i edited my post because people might missinterpret it.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 13 August 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 02:00 AM, said:

If a rifleman or catapult Alpha fires 2 gauss or 2 ac20, I think it's a fair expectation that they should run the very real risk of falling flat on their asses from the recoil, and in the case of the AC20 Raven, well the physics of the situation should speak for itself...

They do. 1 ton of ac20 ammo means each round is 143kg. Now, assuming autocannon are firing shells that include their own propellant, some of that mass is in the explosive, more in the casing. So, for ease of math, let's assume an AC20 shell weighsin at 100kg.

F=ma, if my recollection of high school physics holds up, so that would be 100kg*650m/s, or 65000kgm/s.

Applied to the 35000kg Raven, you get a=F/m 65000/35000 or 1.9m/s. Given the size of the Raven, gyro compensation and simply having legs to step back with, that's pretty trivial.


Now, I may have done something wrong there, as high school physics was thirty years ago, but yeah. A "small" mech like a raven is still a very large war machine. Firing large weapons is not a problem.

But more importantly, this is a game and not your personal battletech simulator. Do Ravens sporting AC20's actually cause any sort of problem?

No.

[Airu]

What you found is not force, but momentum (mass*velocity), but I agree that the force acting on the mech would be easily compensated by the gyros, because they must endure much larger forces when mech is moving at 150 kph.

[FupDup]

Airu, on 13 August 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

What you found is not force, but momentum (mass*velocity), but I agree that the force acting on the mech would be easily compensated by the gyros, because they must endure much larger forces when mech is moving at 150 kph.

The AC/20 Raven can't go anywhere near 150 kph.

[Airu]

FupDup, on 13 August 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

The AC/20 Raven can't go anywhere near 150 kph.

Just because you lower the engine and install ac20 does not mean you change its leg structure. 3L can go 148kph, I would not imagine that 4x has worse/different gyros, I know it cannot mount xl295, but still.

Edited by Airu, 13 August 2016 - 05:16 PM.

[King Kahuna]

No new Light NERFs!!!

[GrimRiver]

Wintersdark, on 13 August 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

They do. 1 ton of ac20 ammo means each round is 143kg. Now, assuming autocannon are firing shells that include their own propellant, some of that mass is in the explosive, more in the casing. So, for ease of math, let's assume an AC20 shell weighsin at 100kg.

F=ma, if my recollection of high school physics holds up, so that would be 100kg*650m/s, or 65000kgm/s.

Applied to the 35000kg Raven, you get a=F/m 65000/35000 or 1.9m/s. Given the size of the Raven, gyro compensation and simply having legs to step back with, that's pretty trivial.


Now, I may have done something wrong there, as high school physics was thirty years ago, but yeah. A "small" mech like a raven is still a very large war machine. Firing large weapons is not a problem.

But more importantly, this is a game and not your personal battletech simulator. Do Ravens sporting AC20's actually cause any sort of problem?

No.

And I'm pretty sure BT universe has recoilless weapon tech too along with the Raven's gyro, the kick from an AC20 would be almost nothing.

[FupDup]

Airu, on 13 August 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

Just because you lower the engine and install ac20 does not mean you change its leg structure. 3L can go 148kph, I would not imagine that 4x has worse/different gyros, I know it cannot mount xl295, but still.

Oh, I interpreted your other post wrong. I thought you were listing the 150 kph thing as a mark against the AC/20 Raven, rather than something in its favor.

Derp.

[Andi Nagasia]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

PMSL at the idea of a AC20 Raven if there were realistic recoil, the Raven would go backwards as fast as the shell going forwards.

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

I wasn't aware an AC20 shell weighed 35 tons. I wonder how they squeeze 7 into one ton of ammo... that defies physics.

well assuming a ton of AC20 ammo is just ammo, thats 2200 / 7 = 315lbs,
and with maths to find out how much 315lbs is to a RVNs 35tons, thats about %0.4 the RVNs Weight,
so a single AC20 Shell weights less than 1 Percent of a RVNs total Weight,

in respect a 22Round weighs about 1.2 ounces, lets see,...
with Maths to find out how much that is to a 200lb Human, you would have about %0.4 the Their Weight,
so a single 22Round weights less than 1 Percent of a 200lb Humans total Weight,

so would a RVN be knocked on its butt firing an AC20 if we look at real world Physics and math?
does a 200lb Human get knocked on their Butt Firing a 22?(also the 22Goes +1600mps)(AC20 only650)

This Presentation is brought to you By Math!!! its Every Where!!! get used to it!!!
Edit- Slight Math Problem, Fixed,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 August 2016 - 08:59 PM.