521 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 August 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

well assuming a ton of AC20 ammo is just ammo, thats 2000 / 7 = 285lbs,
and with maths to find out how much 285lbs is to a RVNs 35tons, thats about %0.4 the RVNs Weight,
so a single AC20 Shell weights less than 1 Percent of a RVNs total Weight,

in respect a 22Round weighs about 12 ounces, lets see,...
with Maths to find out how much that is to a 200lb Human, you would have about %0.4 the Their Weight,
so a single 22Round weights less than 1 Percent of a 200lb Humans total Weight,

so would a RVN be knocked on its butt firing an AC20 if we look at real world Physics and math?
does a 200lb Human get knocked on their Butt Firing a 22?(also the 22Goes +1600mps)(AC20 only650)

This Presentation is brought to you By Math!!! its Every Where!!! get used to it!!!
Edit- Spelling

Note that we're using metric tons in BT, so it's actually almost 315 pounds per shell.

I don't think the outcome in much different, though.

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 13 August 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Note that we're using metric tons in BT, so it's actually almost 315 pounds per shell.

I don't think the outcome in much different, though.

sorry FupDup i have failed you, my maths was wrong,

Edit- Fixed,
Calculating Metric Tons,
315lbs to 35mTons = %0.41, not much of a Change,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 August 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[dario03]

FupDup, on 13 August 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Note that we're using metric tons in BT, so it's actually almost 315 pounds per shell.

I don't think the outcome in much different, though.

Yep not much different since 1/245th of a weight is 1/245th of a weight no matter what the measurement system

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

dario03, on 13 August 2016 - 01:59 AM, said:

Show us the math.

I used my middle school physics and applied the law of conservation of momentum with MWO velocity AC20s and TT weight rounds.

A 35 ton mech will move back ....at a velocity of ~3 m/s. Without friction. The AC20 round flies forward at 650 m/s

Hardly seems the same.

If we consider friction, the Raven will probably not move more than a meter considering just how much "weight" it has - 350k N or so

[Drunken Skull]

I think a .22 caliber shell is a bit of an understatement there, that's more akin to an ac2. I think it'd work out a bit more like this:

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 08:08 PM.

[Airu]

You found the worst example of a human firing a gun The thing is that girl probably weights around 50kgs and most of that weight is not muscle...

[dario03]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

I think a .22 caliber shell is a bit of an understatement there, that's more akin to an ac2. I think it'd work out a bit more like this:

Show us the math.

[Drunken Skull]

A picture is worth a thousand words, a Youtube video that is both funny and on the topic is worth even more...

[dario03]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

A picture is worth a thousand words, a Youtube video that is both funny and on the topic is worth even more...

And math that actually proves or disproves what you're claiming is worth more than both...

[Drunken Skull]

Airu, on 13 August 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

You found the worst example of a human firing a gun The thing is that girl probably weights around 50kgs and most of that weight is not muscle...

Funny thing is the same thing you said about the girl also applies to a light mech. It only weighs 35 tonnes, and most of that weight isn't muscle.

I'm not a physicist so I can't tell you exactly where you went wrong with the math, but it looks like you haven't accounted for the recoil imparted to a 14 tonne weapon or something. The cartridge that knocked that poor girl down when she fired it doesn't weigh that much and isn't that big, but the gun is.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 08:37 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Funny thing is the same thing you said about the girl also applies to a light mech. It only weighs 35 tonnes, and most of that weight isn't muscle.

I'm not a physicist so I can't tell you exactly where you went wrong with the math, but it looks like you haven't accounted for the recoil imparted to a 14 tonne weapon or something. The cartridge that knocked that poor girl down when she fired it doesn't weigh that much and isn't that big, but the gun is.

She had poor stance, not to mention a 35 ton mech isn't exactly LIGHT

The recoil comes from the cartridge, not the gun. A heavier gun actually makes recoil easier to control, as it takes more force to move it.

[adamts01]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 August 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

well assuming a ton of AC20 ammo is just ammo, thats 2200 / 7 = 315lbs,
and with maths to find out how much 315lbs is to a RVNs 35tons, thats about %0.4 the RVNs Weight,
so a single AC20 Shell weights less than 1 Percent of a RVNs total Weight,

in respect a 22Round weighs about 12 ounces, lets see,...
with Maths to find out how much that is to a 200lb Human, you would have about %0.4 the Their Weight,
so a single 22Round weights less than 1 Percent of a 200lb Humans total Weight,

so would a RVN be knocked on its butt firing an AC20 if we look at real world Physics and math?
does a 200lb Human get knocked on their Butt Firing a 22?(also the 22Goes +1600mps)(AC20 only650)

This Presentation is brought to you By Math!!! its Every Where!!! get used to it!!!
Edit- Slight Math Problem, Fixed,

Really well done. Not to mention that knockdown power of bullets is an urban myth as well. Take the legend of knockdown, the 12 gauge slug, it's still equal and opposite on the shooter. It'll stagger the target, but not severely more than the shooter, if at all. To add some numbers to this, a 12 gauge slug is more than 14x the mass of a 22. So even an AC280 wouldn't even have the effect that a lot of people want the AC20 to have.

[Mcgral18]

adamts01, on 13 August 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

Really well done. Not to mention that knockdown power of bullets is an urban myth as well. Take the legend of knockdown, the 12 gauge slug, it's still equal and opposite on the shooter. It'll stagger the target, but not severely more than the shooter, if at all. To add some numbers to this, a 12 gauge slug is more than 14x the mass of a 22. So even an AC280 wouldn't even have the effect that a lot of people want the AC20 to have.

Lore wise, it's also the armour from the 20 damage that makes the target lose damage, not the AC20 round itself.

Suddenly, the mech is a ton lighter on 1 side, and the gyro needs to control that (or the pilot, hence the roll)

[Drunken Skull]

Also the paradox of the Gauss and the AC20 are similar correct?

"the Hollander is very dangerous, as its heavily-reinforced legs - fitted with recoil compensators and support hydraulics - allows the 'Mech to accurately target and fire" {a Gauss Rifle}" at the enemy"

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander

Why even add it to the game if it's specialty can be taken for granted as being automatically included in every other light mech?

Lore and Fluff dictate that these things have WAY more kick in them than you think.

As for math, this is a sci-fi game set in the distant future. What makes you think what we have now even remotely resembles "math" 1000 + years from now. Maybe in that time they have developed propellant that produces 10x the butthurt of the gunpowder and HMX we have now...

It's sci-fi, the numbers making sense is not the point of it. if your'e that wound up in the "math" and not enjoying yourself, then you're doing something wrong...

THIS(the Hollander) however, can give us a baseline to go from on what should, and shouldn't be acceptable with regards to the amount of recoil, and multiples of recoil, that should be knocking mechs on their asses left right and center. You want a solution to "alpa-dakka-online" that doesn't involve giving heat nerfs to a weapon that is supposed to be "heat friendly", then you're looking at it.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 09:16 PM.

[dario03]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Also the paradox of the Gauss and the AC20 are similar correct?

"the Hollander is very dangerous, as its heavily-reinforced legs - fitted with recoil compensators and support hydraulics - allows the 'Mech to accurately target and fire" {a Gauss Rifle}" at the enemy"

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander

Why even add it to the game if it's specialty can be taken for granted as being automatically included in every other light mech?

Lore and Fluff dictate that these things have WAY more kick in them than you think.

Because that is how this game works. None of the mechs with a lore specialty are actually special at it in this game. I think some quirks are put in for it but then again some quirks are also just thrown in for whatever reason. Though the Cyclops is supposed to have some special info-tech stuff (don't know if it will be added to other mechs later).

Edited by dario03, 13 August 2016 - 09:04 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

I think a .22 caliber shell is a bit of an understatement there, that's more akin to an ac2. I think it'd work out a bit more like this:

lets look at than, a 12GA, Slug, weighs about 1.7Ounces,
thats less than double the Weight of a 22, but lets say its doubled,
thats then .08 Percent, still under a single Percent,

also the Girls Stance wasnt Right, her feet are so close together,
Ether she never Fired a shotgun before, or she was perilously doing it for the video,
in this same respect your Engineers wouldnt install an AC20 in your RVN with out the Proper Dampeners,

[Drunken Skull]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 August 2016 - 09:05 PM, said:

lets look at than, a 12GA, Slug, weighs about 1.7Ounces,
thats less than double the Weight of a 22, but lets say its doubled,
thats then .08 Percent, still under a single Percent,

also the Girls Stance wasnt Right, her feet are so close together,
Ether she never Fired a shotgun before, or she was perilously doing it for the video,
in this same respect your Engineers wouldnt install an AC20 in your RVN with out the Proper Dampeners,

And without "heavily-reinforced legs - fitted with recoil compensators and support hydraulics" (like a Hollander has) the raven's footing wouldn't be any more sure than the girls...

For the engineers to pull it off they'd have to replace the whole raven from the CT down... It wouldn't be a Raven any more, it'd be... a Rollander...

Fluff dictates that your'e lucky if Inner Sphere grease monkeys don't break more things than they fix(they certainly can't fix a cracked engine, just load up Btech Cresent Hawks Inception, and try getting you'r engine fixed, go on, cause I can guarantee you that no one's gonna touch that s**t), I don't think this level of conversion is in the scope of what they'e capable of.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 09:48 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Fluff dictates that your'e lucky if Inner Sphere grease monkeys don't break more things than they fix, I don't think this level of conversion is in the scope of what they'e capable of.

Fluff is just that, fluff, aka **** they used to make things seem more interesting than how it actually played out in TT.

[Drunken Skull]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 August 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Fluff is just that, fluff, aka **** they used to make things seem more interesting than how it actually played out in TT.

And yet there was so much more to TT than there is to MWO. To ignore the Fluff and LORE now would be a big mistake. Where would the glue that binds your 12x12 Deathmatch-in-a-bathtub Universe together come from if it were not from BATTLETECH fluff?

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 10:07 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Drunken Skull, on 13 August 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Also the paradox of the Gauss and the AC20 are similar correct?

"the Hollander is very dangerous, as its heavily-reinforced legs - fitted with recoil compensators and support hydraulics - allows the 'Mech to accurately target and fire" {a Gauss Rifle}" at the enemy"

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander

Why even add it to the game if it's specialty can be taken for granted as being automatically included in every other light mech?

Lore and Fluff dictate that these things have WAY more kick in them than you think.

As for math, this is a sci-fi game set in the distant future. What makes you think what we have now even remotely resembles "math" 1000 + years from now. Maybe in that time they have developed propellant that produces 10x the butthurt of the gunpowder and HMX we have now...

It's sci-fi, the numbers making sense is not the point of it. if your'e that wound up in the "math" and not enjoying yourself, then you're doing something wrong...

first off lets handle your incomplete Sarna Quote,

Sarna said:

So long as it still has ammo though the Hollander is very dangerous, as its heavily-reinforced legs - fitted with recoil compensators and support hydraulics - allows the 'Mech to accurately target and fire at the enemy even when running at top speed.

Allows the Mech to Accurately target the Enemy even when running at top Speed,
nothing says it wouldnt be able to fire the AC20 without the support it just wouldnt be able to fire it accurately,
-
also the Urban Mech can handle an AC20 and doesnt mention any form of Leg Support,
does that mean an AC20 Urbie would also fall on its butt if it fired it? o right its slow, well so is an AC20RVN,
-
your taking something thats only been mentioned on ONE MECH as fluff as justification why all other Lights cant,
thats like saying that because Lore wise the ACH replaces the MLX, the MLX should be removed from MWO,
Lore and Fluff are some times just that Fluff, not Every AC20 was a Pontiac100,


yes BT is a sci-fi game set in the distant future. What makes you think my math would no longer work,
perhaps physics has changed as well in this (distant future) but then again maybe im Right,
-
also with that what makes you so sure that a RVN wouldnt be able to handle an AC20?
does it say anywhere that a RVN cant handle an AC20? does it have weaker legs then other mechs?
perhaps in this (distant future) recoil dampeners are Much Much better than what we have today?


what i see is the Hollander Needed to have reinforced Legs to handle is Gauss,
but no where else is such leg fluff talked about for any other mech, im assuming its just he Hollander,
perhaps because of how it was designed, it had to have its legs reinforced for its Chassis to handle it,
that doesnt mean that other Mechs needed to be reinforced to support a Gauss/AC20,
(also note the Hollander carries a Gauss(1800mps) not an AC20(650)
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 August 2016 - 10:10 PM.