521 replies to this topic

[Drunken Skull]

FupDup, on 12 August 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

B-b-b-b-but Quickie, lights can run around vehicles and turrets really really fast and stuff! That makes them able to kill them much faster, right? RIGHT? RIGHT?!?!?!!?

"run around" which is all you guys can do in a kiddie pool sized map. Interception isn't an issue cause you're still thinking you will be in a space the size of a bathtub. Say the convoy is 10 clicks out headed west at 100kph along a highway. You're not getting anywhere near it in time even in medium mechs...

See how this is one simple example of a situation that is beneficial to light mechs but no other classes? It's the sort of PVE that would make light mechs fun. They simply aren't as they are, they have no freedom and no real purpose in a bathtub Deathmatch. You yourselves have admitted how hard you have to work to be "Gud" at piloting them in the current scenario we have now.

Another example, you are tasked with killing an enemy airbase, but you have to get there before all their assets take off and start coming for you. Again, the speed of the light will win the day, larger mechs won't get there in time and will have to contend with being bombed and straffed by all the aerospace that took off whilst being pecked at and hounded by Helicopters and the now alert base defense troop.

These aren't fanciful dreams, they are stock mission examples from MW2 onwards.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 12 August 2016 - 10:28 PM.

[FupDup]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 August 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

I still have an entire library I havent even tapped yet rofl.

Stocking up for the forum apocalypse, I see?

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FupDup, on 12 August 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Stocking up for the forum apocalypse, I see?

When this community cascades into a fireball greater than Paul and Bryans firestorm of incompetence, I will be here to provide entertainment and laughter.

[Andi Nagasia]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

"run around" which is all you guys can do in a kiddie pool sized map. Interception isn't an issue cause you're still thinking you will be in a space the size of a bathtub. Say the convoy is 10 clicks out headed west at 100kph along a highway. You're not getting anywhere near it in time even in medium mechs...

See how this is one simple example of a situation that is beneficial to light mechs but no other classes? It's the sort of PVE that would make light mechs fun. They simply aren't as they are, they have no freedom and no real purpose in a bathtub Deathmatch. You yourselves have admitted how hard you have to work to be "Gud" at piloting them in the current scenario we have now.

Another example, you are tasked with killing an enemy airbase, but you have to get there before all their assets take off and start coming for you. Again, the speed of the light will win the day, larger mechs won't get there in time and will have to contend with being bombed and straffed by all the aerospace that took off whilst being pecked at and hounded by Helicopters and the now alert base defense troop.

These aren't fanciful dreams, they are stock mission examples from MW2 onwards.

the thing is Lights do have Roles, Flanking, Capping, Distracting, and ninja'ing assaults,
thats kinda what lights do, most lights need love maybe not brought to ACH levels but something,

Edit-
Also you gave examples of things Lights can do that NO OTHER weight class can,
no mission in a balanced game will say(did you take a light?) NO then you automatically lose,
Lights shouldnt be Pure Win or lose when it comes to a Game, and in MWO its not,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 12 August 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 August 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

the thing is Lights do have Roles, Flanking, Capping, Distracting, and ninja'ing assaults,
thats kinda what lights do, most lights need love maybe not brought to ACH levels but something,

Edit-
Also you gave examples of things Lights can do that NO OTHER weight class can,
no mission in a balanced game will say(did you take a light?) NO then you automatically lose,
Lights shouldnt be Pure Win or lose when it comes to a Game, and in MWO its not,

True, but with a few small tweaks in timing or convoy speed these scenaro's can easily accomodate medium mechs as well, that's half of the current pop in a match that could contend.

Aside from that, consider this;

Map vote time, and the choice is Assault or Conquest. What do all the light and some of the fast medium pilots vote for? The answer is almost always Conquest.

What do the rest of the Medium Heavy and Assault Pilots vote for? Almost always Assault.

Wouldn't it make more sense to be able to prepare a preferred choice in advance, instead of having the decision sprung on you at random?

That way Assaults and heavies can go do their face-smash thing, whilst the mediums and lights can go do their cap-warrior nascar rally thing.

As it stands the heavies out-number the lights, and it's rare these days to see lights get their Conquest game, as the Game-mode vote is almost always skewed towards what the heavies want.

I bet in the latest Assault challenge that Conquest didn't even get to see the light of day even once. Clearly there is a difference of opinion between light pilots and heavy/assault pilots on what constitutes a good game mode. Some may think that splitting the community in half at this stage might be a bad thing, but I can clearly see the demand for it is there, and I think the outcome might be a good thing for everybody concerned, as everyone get's to play their preferred game type.

That's where the game could be expanded upon by the addition of extra scenario's like those above, to give lights and fast mediums more range of choice than only Conquest mode.

Take other scenario's from previous iterations of MW to give heavies and assaults additional scenario's to brawl in, for example, Palace Assault/Defense, Landing Assault's, etc. Give the Assault pilots scenario's that fit their weight class. Would be a lot better than the current scenario, where you drop in the occasional conquest map and the assault pilot says"Oh well, see you next week", or "I should be at the cap by at least next Friday..."

PGI doesn't even have to do anything more than give the players a "Choice" of what game mode they want to drop in, and the split will occur naturally and without issue. That way players can "jump the tracks" to the other side any time they choose. Things like the forced 3/3/3/3 won't even be necessary then.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 12 August 2016 - 11:29 PM.

[AnarchyBurger]

Jesus god almighty! Anyone who thinks any light is op needs to stop playing with a goddam joystick.

[Y E O N N E]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

2. Light mechs are Cheating in the game. In all reality-based scenario's when a fast moving object changes direction rapidly it must bleed off the momentum it had in the original vector. Light mechs in this game don't, they don't spin out, they don't slide out, they don't drift, and they don't fall over. You may as well have chopped their legs off and replaced them with an Alien UFO, cause that's the physics-defying **** they're able to pull off..

2. Assault and Heavy 'Mechs are Cheating in the game. In reality-based scenario's having a bunch of high-recoil weapons mounted up near the top and fired in unison would cause it to topple over or at least stagger from the sudden, sharp application of torque at the end of a long moment arm with an inherently unstable base. They can also mount these guns in flimsy humanoid arms, which by nature of having so many joints would actually make such a thing untenable. They can also bring LRMs, which are so tiny that you get 180 of these things capable of four times the range of SRMs despite the latter being physically larger. It may as well be powered by Alien UFO fuel. Finally, they can boat Large Lasers, which are gamma ray lasers, which means they shouldn't work at all in the atmosphere except to give everybody cancer because wavelengths over UV just scatter unless it's in a vacuum. Your Large Lasers should only work on HPG and Vitric.

[Xetelian]

Wish the vocal minority would keep their mouths closed sometimes

ACH WAS good
ACH is now OK

Needs no further mucking with

[Drunken Skull]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 August 2016 - 11:07 PM, said:

2. Assault and Heavy 'Mechs are Cheating in the game. In reality-based scenario's having a bunch of high-recoil weapons mounted up near the top and fired in unison would cause it to topple over or at least stagger from the sudden, sharp application of torque at the end of a long moment arm with an inherently unstable base. They can also mount these guns in flimsy humanoid arms, which by nature of having so many joints would actually make such a thing untenable. They can also bring LRMs, which are so tiny that you get 180 of these things capable of four times the range of SRMs despite the latter being physically larger. It may as well be powered by Alien UFO fuel. Finally, they can boat Large Lasers, which are gamma ray lasers, which means they shouldn't work at all in the atmosphere except to give everybody cancer because wavelengths over UV just scatter unless it's in a vacuum. Your Large Lasers should only work on HPG and Vitric.

Traditionally mounting a Gauss Rifle on a medium mech is supposed to result in comical situations regarding the amount of recoil these weapons are touted to have. Even the Hollander had to "Assume the position" before firing, to avoid being catapulted 3 hexes back IIRC(The Goliath is traditionally the only IS mech that is supposed to field this weapon with any amount of success due to the recoil). It's a very good point that needs to be raised and addressed. There are a multitude of situations that this mechanic/effect could solve, that are currently being band-aid patched with ghost heat and heat sink nerfs(not to mention the dodgy gauss charge up mechanic). Have the 6 ERPPC Stalker fall on it's arse from the recoil of an alpha, would have been a far more elegant fix than ghost heat ever was.

PMSL at the idea of a AC20 Raven if there were realistic recoil, the Raven would go backwards as fast as the shell going forwards.

As for Lasers not working in atmosphere, sorry to burst your bubble here but they do work in atmosphere. Various Military's around the world have developed and are already now using air-borne and ship-borne laser systems to attack missiles and UAV's.

There is no mention of the Atmospheric limitations of Grazers here, not sure where you coined this info from. Care to share your info source?
https://en.wikipedia...Gamma-ray_laser

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 07:09 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Funny. Just as predicted in the other light mech threads: nerf wave after nerf wave hit the light mechs until the whole class became subpar.
The only chassis which still did ok was the ACH and it was said in those threads that people will go after this mech next.

Now we are here in this thread and also see a Twitter conversation about it should get a nerf - again: just as predicted.

Guys, just face it: if you still have proplems with a light mech, it is you and not the class. This is so utterly pathetic.



As for projectile weapons not registering: that is a general problem, not an ACH problem.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 13 August 2016 - 12:14 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

1. Correct, Light mechs are in fact training mechs. Did you really think your 20 tonne 3 weapon training mech was in fact an uber-skill stabbie in tha backie mech? It's a joke thats just bad, and so so wrong.
.

So, the Erdani Light Horse and Davion Light Guards are training units? Finally we got that right. Finally!!!!!

Edited by Bush Hopper, 13 August 2016 - 12:19 AM.

[Kotzi]

I must admit i lost track. What are we discussing again. ACH OPness or lack of Objective Missions in MWO? And where is the connection to those?

[dario03]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

Traditionally mounting a Gauss Rifle on a medium mech is supposed to result in comical situations regarding the amount of recoil these weapons are touted to have. Even the Hollander had to "Assume the position" before firing, to avoid being catapulted 3 hexes back IIRC(The Goliath is traditionally the only IS mech that is supposed to field this weapon with any amount of success due to the recoil). It's a very good point that needs to be raised and addressed. There are a multitude of situations that this mechanic/effect could solve, that are currently being band-aid patched with ghost heat and heat sink nerfs(not to mention the dodgy gauss charge up mechanic). Have the 6 ERPPC Stalker fall on it's arse from the recoil of an alpha, would have been a far more elegant fix than ghost heat ever was.

PMSL at the idea of a AC20 Raven if there were realistic recoil, the Raven would go backwards as fast as the shell going forwards.

Show us the math.

[Drunken Skull]

Bush Hopper, on 13 August 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

So, the Erdani Light Horse and Davion Light Guards are training units? Finally we got that right. Finally!!!!!

No, in those cases I'd guess what you have is special ops/interdiction units.

To Be Honest here, a Light would be typically considered a training mech if it is between 20 and 30 tonnes (typical examples include the Locust, Wasp, and Stinger), those at 30T and above would be considered as the mech equivalent of an interceptor, and would be deployed for fast take-down or deep strike/hit and run scenario's, as well as maybe scouting/penetration testing of the front lines in a conflict.

As for math, I went and dusted off my Btech Compendium, and you're right!, AFAIK there is no TT implementation of recoil I could find(looks like my memory has suffered a hard-fault at some stage). Perhaps it was not of concern since the dice do the aiming in TT.

There is a brief mention in the BATTLETECH TECHNICAL READOUT: 3050 p184, Goliath GOL-3M Overview; "It's unusual four legged design, makes it a good candidate for a Star League weapon that most 'Mechs cannot handle."-"the powerful and massive Zeus Slingshot Gauss Rifle."

This would tend to lend weight for the argument for significant recoil, and it would be a fair assumption that smaller mechs should NOT be able to field these weapons without significant recoil penalties.

If a rifleman or catapult Alpha fires 2 gauss or 2 ac20, I think it's a fair expectation that they should run the very real risk of falling flat on their asses from the recoil, and in the case of the AC20 Raven, well the physics of the situation should speak for itself...

Edited by Drunken Skull, 13 August 2016 - 03:33 AM.

[B0oN]

Dino Might, on 12 August 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

I want to make it more like DCS.

Have my mechanical children, will ya ?
<3

[Cyborne Elemental]

Its not a problem with the ACH, in terms of its size, shape, or even the Clan-XL.

Its two completely different things.

1. Small Pulse lasers.
2. Hitreg sucks on fast mechs.

1a. You put anything but SPL on an ACH, and its either too hot, or too weak to make the ACH a threat.
SPL are the problem, and that goes for any mech that can boat them.

36 damage, with the quickest cooldown weapon in the game, its like having a 30 ton Thunderbolt-9S, just with shorter range and even higher DPS.

Only difference is, when you shoot at a Thunderbolt, it actually takes damage.

Edited by Mister D, 13 August 2016 - 06:31 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Bush Hopper, on 13 August 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

Funny. Just as predicted in the other light mech threads: nerf wave after nerf wave hit the light mechs until the whole class became subpar.
The only chassis which still did ok was the ACH and it was said in those threads that people will go after this mech next.

Now we are here in this thread and also see a Twitter conversation about it should get a nerf - again: just as predicted.

Guys, just face it: if you still have proplems with a light mech, it is you and not the class. This is so utterly pathetic.



As for projectile weapons not registering: that is a general problem, not an ACH problem.

I hate to say it bro.... but from now on I am just going to tell the light haters to Learn to Play , Learn to Aim, Get some Skill, and Get Gud

Anyone who thinks lights are OP just is not worth the time

Mister D, on 13 August 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

Its not a problem with the ACH, in terms of its size, shape, or even the Clan-XL.

Its two completely different things.

1. Small Pulse lasers.
2. Hitreg sucks on fast mechs.

1a. You put anything but SPL on an ACH, and its either too hot, or too weak to make the ACH a threat.
SPL are the problem, and that goes for any mech that can boat them.

36 damage, with the quickest cooldown weapon in the game, its like having a 30 ton Thunderbolt-9S, just with shorter range and even higher DPS.

Only difference is, when you shoot at a Thunderbolt, it actually takes damage.

Honestly, IMHO, the one that that really really sets the ACH out from the rest of the lights is weapon hard points and more importantly ECM.

Get a ACH with 4 or 5 C-ER ML's with a targeting module and anything within 500ish meters you can deal significant damage to. When you get to hot... relocated, rinse, repeat.

Take the ECM away from the cheetah and it will have the same problem that every other non ECM light has.....

[Besh]

Darian DelFord, on 13 August 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

I hate to say it bro.... but from now on I am just going to tell the light haters to Learn to Play , Learn to Aim, Get some Skill, and Get Gud

Anyone who thinks lights are OP just is not worth the time




Honestly, IMHO, the one that that really really sets the ACH out from the rest of the lights is weapon hard points and more importantly ECM.

Get a ACH with 4 or 5 C-ER ML's with a targeting module and anything within 500ish meters you can deal significant damage to. When you get to hot... relocated, rinse, repeat.

Take the ECM away from the cheetah and it will have the same problem that every other non ECM light has.....

+1

We should prolly make that a Slogan, CatchPhrase, SignatureThing or sthg. like that .

Edited by Besh, 13 August 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 11:52 PM, said:

PMSL at the idea of a AC20 Raven if there were realistic recoil, the Raven would go backwards as fast as the shell going forwards.

I wasn't aware an AC20 shell weighed 35 tons. I wonder how they squeeze 7 into one ton of ammo... that defies physics.

[Dino Might]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

I wasn't aware an AC20 shell weighed 35 tons. I wonder how they squeeze 7 into one ton of ammo... that defies physics.

I'm glad someone picked up on this. I was chuckling at the line talking about "realistic" recoil.