521 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

adamts01, on 12 August 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

I agree the game is sad, but it's not, nor ever has been paper rock scissors. Any decent assault with a decent loadout has always been able to solo lights. Even if an assault is dumb enough to be solo (bad pilot) he can reverse, counter steer, and take a single well aimed shot to gimp or outright kill the light. Not since lag shied spiders of years past has this been otherwise. In lower tiers, where good aim is a rarity, the smaller (not much so anymore) faster targets seemed a little over powered, but step in to a true tier 1 match and lights get absolutely bent over by everything on the battlefield.

Total truth here:

As primarily an assault pilot, I have never once feared individual lights. Not once, not any light pilot. If one is substantially more skilled than me, he'll probably win - but he should due to the skill delta.

Any light pilot at my skill level? If he's alone, he's a dead man. Not because I'm better. Because he needs to nibble at me forever, and I just need to hit him once to cripple him. It's impossible to stay out of a mastered assault's firing arc (*assuming reasonable builds, etc) if he's not stupid, there are no lights fast enough to do that. It *may* be possible against a Direwolf or less agile build now, with an exceptionally skilled light pilot, but I haven't met one that could do it when I'm in my DWF.

When you've got assaults pushing enough damage to fully remove a light's front CT *and* ST's in a single alpha, well...

The only assaults that need fear a single light are bad assault pilots.

Now, of course, a group of lights will wreck an assault, but a group of mediums, heavies, or assaults will wreck an assault too. Numbers trump all.

Saying "Lights are OP" now is functionally identical to saying "LRM's are OP" - it's a clear indicator that you have no idea what you're talking about, and are presenting an idea based wholly on ignorance, not fact.

[Satan n stuff]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Since you are so wise and know so much better than me, how do you propose PGI make Hardpoint Starved mechs compete in this shambles of a TDM Arena shooter, where the winning meta is High-Alpha peek-a-boo?

That hasn't been the meta for several months now, it's only really effective against poorly coordinated pugs.

[Wintersdark]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Since you are so wise and know so much better than me, how do you propose PGI make Hardpoint Starved mechs compete in this shambles of a TDM Arena shooter, where the winning meta is High-Alpha peek-a-boo?

I get that you're grouchy about the situation - I don't disagree with complaints about game modes, etc, etc. High alpha peekaboo isn't the meta so much anymore, though, btw - but there will always be some meta or whatever, so the thought behind it stands.

What the lights need varies from light to light. Some need hardpoint inflation. Others need quirks, or some mix of the two. We need balance.

Ideally, there would be other changes to the game (Infowar, etc); but ultimately, MWO is and will remain a combat centered game. You can't have grossly less combat capable mechs in there, because there's no other role.

I could come up with all sorts of grand ideas otherwise (along infowar and other core mechanic changes) and there have been lots posted throughout the years on the forums, but that's meaningless as none of it is going to happen. I long ago tired of suggesting or even bothering to support such posts - not because they have no merit but because it's a waste of time.

---

But we're not talking about those problems. Making lights suck Just Because Drunken Skull feels they should suck (note that this is precisely your logic here; given the fundamental game design has been different from day one) doesn't fix crappy game modes and poorly balanced mechs. It just ensures a whole class may as well not be in the game at all.

[Dino Might]

Drunken Skull, on 11 August 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

^ THIS.

Without PROPER utilization of the classes for their original intended role, in appropriate game modes that play to their specific strengths and weaknesses, we may as well just pick the one or two top performers from each class and remove all other mechs from the game(the way it is at the moment, that's essentially what's happening now anyway, as it is reflected in the choices people make in what mech and loadout they drop with).

This problem is greater than just light mechs, it is why hardpoint-starved mechs can't compete, it's why we have stupid things like ghost heat, heat sink nerfs, and quirks(de-nurfs). All we have right now is a Solaris arena shooter, and all the game modes we have so far are just different flavors of Solaris arena shooters, even CW.

For us to get anywhere from here, we are going to have to do a total re-think of the game. We got to stop alienating and trolling new or handicapped players, we need to have game content that can cater to things other than direct PVP confrontation. EG crafting, murching, PVE, exploration, etc...

We need more game content than a mechlab, some cardboard cut-outs of a drop ship, and some 12x12 arena shooter maps.

It sounds like you want to make MWO into WOW. And, before you get defensive, I'm not harping on you for that. I want to make it more like DCS. We all have ideas that would make MWO a much more interactive and in-depth game than it is now.

What you should do is make your main point just that. You started off with "ACH OP plz nerf" and then used game depth as a justification, when in fact, your original supposition is just plain wrong, and therefore your actual goal is entirely undermined.

You say things like, "lights shouldn't threaten anything but other lights based on TT" (paraphrasing), but I gave you an example that a TT Adder can one-shot ANY mech in the game without even an alpha strike. Also, I just so happened to dominated two ACHs in the same match yesterday with my 2 ERPPC Adder. One of them even tried to chase me down as he got both his torsos blown off from about 150m as he was gently caressing me with his small lasers. Seriously, the ACH is not a problem, and lights are not a problem. Aiming, or lack thereof, is the problem when it comes to the combat.

But let's table that discussion, as you've been told myriad ways that your initial supposition is bogus.
Let's look at your actual recommendation:

Create an in-depth world involving more than just combat. Crafting, player-driven economy, PvE elements - what if we made an entire avenue of the game to be similar to other MMOs? I actually think that would be kind of cool. The big, looming question is, what would we be grinding for? What would be "top-tier" equipment? And how would you create a PvP environment to balance and not completely destroy new players (as you say only lights currently do...somehow...)?

[Dino Might]

One final thought. If lights were meant to be only capable of killing other lights, and nobody should fear them but other lights, then lights would be on about the level (or below) of the Vindicator right now. How many Vindicators do you see on the field? Is that what you want? I actually think so - I think your goal is just to nerf lights into the ground so there is one less element in the game that you have to consider, so you can make aiming/shooting even easier than it already is.

[Y E O N N E]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

We can argue that Light mechs are Over Powered, or that they are Underpowered, till we are blue in the face, fact is we are both right, Light mechs ARE OP when pitted against assaults. However pitting Lights against mediums or heavies, and the Lights get their asses handed to them.

So you think Assault should be OP against everything? There is nothing good that can come of that. Rock-paper-scissors is superior to having a linear progression from bad 'Mech to good 'Mech based on tonnage.

Quote

Yes I do understand that in order to "Git Gud" at piloting a Light mech you had to be EXTREMELY gud, that doesn't make what your'e doing to other players right, and you're actually hurting the game as a whole, and helping me prove my point at the same time by drawing attention to it.

Apply some f*ckin' critical thought, dude. If I'm doing really well in a Light, what do you think happens when you stick me in a Medium or a Heavy? 600-700 damage games are the norm when I'm in a Marauder, versus the typical 350-450 I get in a Locust. That's true for pretty much every good pilot. There is nothing ruining it except you, and people like you, being terrible at positioning, aiming, and even 'Mech building. If anything, the game is being ruined for people who enjoy Lights because every time we practice our asses off to get really consistent with a chassis, it gets pounded into the sand because people refuse to improve themselves. Why is the onus on us to always git gud? When do you git gud?

Quote

If youre so Funkin Waggnels good at piloting, why do you need to use a speed tank and pick on things slower than you? Perhaps your'e not as "Gud" as you think you are and can't get by without these crutches?

Why do you need the crutch of having tons of armor, cooling, and firepower, hm? Tell you what, I'll put a 100-rated engine in my Locust if you only bring four Medium lasers and 138 points of armor on your Battlemaster. Deal?

The funny thing is that when I'm actually engaged in combat with the Locust I'm not even running full-tilt. I'm usually standing in a circle about 30 m radius jiggling around back and forth, sometimes circling around the target, making precise shots to components. I'm also usually not alone. It's not my fault you stumbled into an unwinnable fight, and that you can't time your shots for when I'm most vulnerable at inflection points in my movement.

Quote

Whether the Light mech class gets buffed or nerfed at this stage doesn't matter, It won't make the slightest bit of difference either way, it's just a red herring distracting everyone from the real Pink Elephant in the corner of the room that nobody's willing to acknowledge.

You think the games fine the way it is then so be it, good for you, make the crutches for your light mechs as big as you like, it only increases the LOL factor.

Again, you bring only 138 points of armor and four MedLas on your Battlemaster and I'll do the same on my Locust.

The Elephant in the room is your evident lack of ability, and the only one unwilling to acknowledge it is you. PGI said at the outset of this game that they would not be setting it up so it's a race to the top of the tonnage heap, so it's already been decided that Lights should be just as useful in combat as the bigs. Deal with it.

[GrimRiver]

Kotzi, on 12 August 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

Oh lord, thats some neat aiming. When the ACH was shut down it was surrounded by 4 mechs. The Mist Lynx shot with lrms and hit his teammate too, that teammate didnt shoot at the ACH at all, the Blackjack had to find the shutdown ACH before he could fire Medium laser for less than half a second at him and the Griffin displayed his superb aiming again. Nevertheless this OP Cheetah only killed one mech by scratching its already cored back as it seems. It didnt kill anything else, it didnt win the game with ease. Where is the evidence for OPness.

There was 6 actually, the ACH killed 1 and left 5.
A Zeus was off to the far right when the ACH overheated and was still shooting him, a zeus that had 1 kill and 680dmg so his aim must be good enough but somehow not good enough to hit a ACH running in a drunk daze?

I could understand 1 or 2 people having trouble hitting it but 5?

Since then I have yet to see a light run around in the middle of 5 mechs and get shot at and live for 44 seconds straight of that.

[Deathlike]

GrimRiver, on 12 August 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

There was 6 actually, the ACH killed 1 and left 5.
A Zeus was off to the far right when the ACH overheated and was still shooting him, a zeus that had 1 kill and 680dmg so his aim must be good enough but somehow not good enough to hit a ACH running in a drunk daze?

I could understand 1 or 2 people having trouble hitting it but 5?

Since then I have yet to see a light run around in the middle of 5 mechs and get shot at and live for 44 seconds straight of that.

I've seen enough times people trying to finish off the Light, but not actually aiming for the legs. It's hilarious, but it's sadly real.

[GrimRiver]

Deathlike, on 12 August 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

I've seen enough times people trying to finish off the Light, but not actually aiming for the legs. It's hilarious, but it's sadly real.

Yeah it's real but people seem to have very short memories about the pre-fix ACH vs Post-fix ACH

People just don't remember the pre-fix ACH and that it ruled almost 90% of the lights in MM because it was simply better then every light and there was no reason to take any other clan light over it other then nostalgic reasons.

Even post-fix ACH it still a bit better then other clan lights but that gave other lights a bit more wiggle room to be just as good(as long as the players are good)

Something was clearly wrong with the pre-fix ACH which was the reason for the mass outcry for nerfs on the forum that even bled over to reddit and twitter.

[Deathlike]

GrimRiver, on 12 August 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

Yeah it's real but people seem to have very short memories about the pre-fix ACH vs Post-fix ACH

People just don't remember the pre-fix ACH and that it ruled almost 90% of the lights in MM because it was simply better then every light and there was no reason to take any other clan light over it other then nostalgic reasons.

Even post-fix ACH it still a bit better then other clan lights but that gave other lights a bit more wiggle room to be just as good(as long as the players are good)

Something was clearly wrong with the pre-fix ACH which was the reason for the mass outcry for nerfs on the forum that even bled over to reddit and twitter.

I remember this specifically, and it's nowhere near what you're describing.

The ACH was overquirked (when most people thought it didn't need any to begin with) out of the gate. While nerfs eventually happened, eventually the Oxide got overbuffed to surpass the ACH's popularity.

Post-scale, the rest of the Lights mostly got the shaft, and the ACH having lost most of its quirks simply was the last good Light mech standing.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

GrimRiver, on 12 August 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

Yeah it's real but people seem to have very short memories about the pre-fix ACH vs Post-fix ACH

People just don't remember the pre-fix ACH and that it ruled almost 90% of the lights in MM because it was simply better then every light and there was no reason to take any other clan light over it other then nostalgic reasons.

Even post-fix ACH it still a bit better then other clan lights but that gave other lights a bit more wiggle room to be just as good(as long as the players are good)

Something was clearly wrong with the pre-fix ACH which was the reason for the mass outcry for nerfs on the forum that even bled over to reddit and twitter.

The reason for all of that was it had unnecessary structure leg quirks that gave it the strength of a 40 tonner. That was it. There was nothing else broken about it.

The moment it lost those quirks, legs started to drop faster than a prostitutes panties in Rio.

[Darian DelFord]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 August 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

The reason for all of that was it had unnecessary structure leg quirks that gave it the strength of a 40 tonner. That was it. There was nothing else broken about it.

Versus the quirks given to assaults that give them the strength of 150 ton mechs.... if there were such a thing,.

[dario03]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Since you are so wise and know so much better than me, how do you propose PGI make Hardpoint Starved mechs compete in this shambles of a TDM Arena shooter, where the winning meta is High-Alpha peek-a-boo?

How do you plan to placate Assault Pilots when they Rage because they've had enough of your light mech shenanigans?

You haven't got the slightest clue do you? You probably don't even think there IS a problem. At least I've TRIED to point out the real issues at heart here, and even given suggestions on possible remedies. All you've done is try to discredit me, silence me, and shoot me down, all the while crying "but PGI told me I'd have a place in the world!". Ever heard of being constructive with your criticism?

Well there IS a problem, a big frikkin problem, a 6 year old stale game that has barely made good on anything it set out to do, and is about to fall to the wayside as soon as TNBT comes along kind of problem. I won't be hanging around for the collapse, Ill be jumping ship with everyone else when Hairbrained Schemes gets their BTECH off the ground, cause seriously, there is more to the Battletech universe than this.

Don't feel sad for me because none of this will be skin off my nose. It will be sad for you in a few months time from now, because it sounds like you LIKE this game perfectly as it is now, a great many of us don't, and very very soon, we wont have to put up with this crap anymore.

You make it sound like a assault being killed by a light is so traumatic...Like the assault pilot is going to have to go to counseling or something.
Again if its so bad for a assault to die to a light using its speed then why isn't it traumatic for a light to get one shot killed or legged by a assault or heavy from 800m out?

And everybody knows the game could use more stuff. But you are asking for a complete re do of maps and adding in a bunch of ai controlled turrets and vehicles. That would be a lot more work and would take time. If they decide to do that then fine, but until then they should balance the mechs to the current gameplay which is TDM. And with quirks that balance wouldn't take much time at all, just give the lights some quirks or remove some quirks from heavier mechs.
Removing quirks from heavier mechs would go more in line with your "supposed to" wants since heavier mechs are not "supposed to" move around with such agility. So the whole ~70t mechs with ~50% turn, twist, and/or accel/decel rate quirks while some lights have none of that, can go.

Edited by dario03, 12 August 2016 - 12:13 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

If I wasn't at work I'd be eating popcorn because these threads are so entertaining with some of the broken logic being tossed around.

As an assault pilot, my light brethren deserve the same opportunity to deal damage and get kills. Don't agree with that? Get bent.

[Gas Guzzler]

- the OP

[Mcgral18]

Drunken Skull, on 12 August 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Since you are so wise and know so much better than me, how do you propose PGI make Hardpoint Starved mechs compete in this shambles of a TDM Arena shooter, where the winning meta is High-Alpha peek-a-boo?

[Kotzi]

GrimRiver, on 12 August 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

There was 6 actually, the ACH killed 1 and left 5.
A Zeus was off to the far right when the ACH overheated and was still shooting him, a zeus that had 1 kill and 680dmg so his aim must be good enough but somehow not good enough to hit a ACH running in a drunk daze?

I could understand 1 or 2 people having trouble hitting it but 5?

Since then I have yet to see a light run around in the middle of 5 mechs and get shot at and live for 44 seconds straight of that.

No, actually he couldnt shoot because that griffin was blocking the firing line. And having too many friendlies around is harder to shoot the enemy for several reasons in this case. And for the last part, you should watch the locust more often nowadays. There are some skilled pilots who can "dodge" some shots by just changing movement erratically. But it doesnt really help when you can aim with a AC20 and some SRMs. But as others mentioned before, the most dominant factor is the pilots skill shortly followed by the mechtype. This is what you want not the other way around.

Edited by Kotzi, 12 August 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[Stone Wall]

Drunken Skull, on 10 August 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

TBH trying to make light mechs good against anything heavier than other light mechs is a perversion of what the game is meant to be. Light mechs are supposed to be able to deal with infantry, soft vehicle targets such as convoys, light tanks, Helicopters and hovercrafts, thats what their speed is "supposed" to be used for(incidentally that's ALSO what Machine Guns are meant to be used for). NOT for trolling the f**k out of an assault mech to the point the pilot wants to quit.

Is this your first MechWarrior game m8? This has always happened. Don't act like PGI invented good Light pilots. I have seen good Light pilots online since 1999.

[Tarogato]

Drunken Skull, on 11 August 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

Light mechs aren't supposed to strike fear into the hearts of anything larger than they are, theyr'e "Light", they ARE called that for a reason. They are small, don't weigh very much, hence don't carry very much armor and don't have space for very much weaponry.

It really sounds like you would like this to be "Call of Duty, Mechs" Where a Light mech is equal to an Assault mech, just as a sniper is equal to an engineer or medic in a Battlefield game. This isn't suppose to be how Battletech or Mechwarrior is, and I hope it's clear as to why; 1 weighs 20 tons 1 weighs 100 tones, do the math... one's the equivalent of a jeep or quad bike and the other is the equivalent of an M1 or T90 tank. So you would like to have the Jeep be as tanky as the M1 or T90?

Better remind HBS to nerf those light mechs in their game as well, they're overpowered. They're not allowed to troll around behind heavies for easy kills right?






Mind you that lights using their speed for flanking and backstabbing heavies and assaults is something that happens in the tabletop as well, so exactly on what grounds do you think an entire class of mechs should be useless in MWO just because they are hard to hit and can outrun assault mechs?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

dario03, on 12 August 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

But you are asking for a complete re do of maps and adding in a bunch of ai controlled turrets and vehicles.

I still don't understand how adding ai controlled vehicles and turrets magically fixes lights, that's combat, whether it is different or not, which means mediums and above are still better at dealing with them.....