63 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 August 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

Except no one will be using those alphas, because they are absurd.

Yeah, silly me, who would use high alphas...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yellonet, on 19 August 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Yeah, silly me, who would use high alphas...

There is a difference between a repeatable high alpha, and a high alpha that causes you to wait for 10 seconds before it can be repeated. One is viable, the other not so much.

Don't get me wrong, the penalty could stand to be higher, but so could the capacity.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 August 2016 - 08:29 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

This sounds like PGI used some PR skills in the first run.
If they set the values a bit on the low side, the players can go in and have a blast learning the new mechanic and then the players state that the values need to be harsher. Then it is not all PGI.

[Yellonet]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

There is a difference between a repeatable high alpha, and a high alpha that causes you to wait for 10 seconds before it can be repeated. One is viable, the other not so much.

Don't get me wrong, the penalty could stand to be higher, but so could the capacity.

Of course, but if you are in a position where you can safely withdraw to cool down, high alphas will be used. We are going to see more mechs get one-shotted more often. But while the high alpha warriors will also miss their shots and get caught on cooldown, that isn't as off-putting to those people as getting one-shotted is IMO.

Chuck Jager, on 19 August 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

This sounds like PGI used some PR skills in the first run.
If they set the values a bit on the low side, the players can go in and have a blast learning the new mechanic and then the players state that the values need to be harsher. Then it is not all PGI.

Could be, could be. Not a bad idea though...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yellonet, on 19 August 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Of course, but if you are in a position where you can safely withdraw to cool down, high alphas will be used.

Easier said than done, especially against teams who know better and actually have the fortitude to use the terrible meme: keep calm and press W.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

You guys are right we should drop the whole system.

so instead of just doubling the Heat Penalty, which would do allot,
your suggesting we nuke the system from orbit, wow Gas thats harsh,

[pyrocomp]

Dee Eight, on 19 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Anyone test b33f's direstar out ? I believe pre-ghost heat he got 3 shots before he went boom.

Explodes right the moment it fires.

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 August 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

so instead of just doubling the Heat Penalty, which would do allot,
your suggesting we nuke the system from orbit, wow Gas thats harsh,

I was half joking, but the path to balance is shorter if we don't introduce another dozen dials to turn.

Doubling the heat penalty doesn't help balance at all, just restricts viable builds even more, and makes Assaults more useless.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 August 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 August 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

so instead of just doubling the Heat Penalty, which would do allot,
your suggesting we nuke the system from orbit, wow Gas thats harsh,

[SilentHawk]

pyrocomp, on 19 August 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Explodes right the moment it fires.

Energy draw over 120 is an immediate suicide

[pyrocomp]

SilentHawk, on 19 August 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Energy draw over 120 is an immediate suicide

Actual wording is Energy Draw level of -120 is a new suicide condition. And it is not the case.
10 cERPPC kill you instantly (haven't noticed if shots went off, or I exploded before that).
13.5*10 = 135 energy points spent. With +30 at the beginnig that gives -105 energy level.
9 cERPPCS kill you instantly (haven't noticed if shots went off, or I exploded before that).
13.5*9 = 121.5 energy points spent. With +30 at the beginnig that gives -91.5 energy level.
8 cERPPC just eat away around 45 hp and take around 10 te recover from overheating (map dependent I guess).
13.5*8 = 108 energy points spent. With +30 at the beginnig that gives -78 energy level.

Thus the 'new suicide' condition should be rephrased to 'simultaneous energy draw of 120 energy points'.

[Cy Mitchell]

Eliminating the huge Alpha is not the goal necessarily. Making sure it cannot be repeated and giving negative repercussions to doing it is much better IMO. This is just the first test. There are going to have to be some adjustments to weapon energy draw modifiers. Lasers and SRMs/sSRMs and LRMs need to have slightly lower modifiers. Gauss and PPC may need a bit higher. The energy recharge is too generous. The energy threshold needs adjusted for some classes. The global cooldown rate seems about right. Make the necessary adjustments and then add a heat scale that punishes high heat and it may be the solution many people are hoping for.

[pyrocomp]

At present the heat penalty for firing multiple weapons are linear past some damage. The heat penalties ing GH system were non-linear but exponential (cheked that). To bring this into ED system the heat penalty for overdraw should become exponential or (strong or) may be kept linear with following chenges (as there are no reasonable builds with more than 100 pt alpha anyway):

• max energy cap lowered to around 27.
  
• heat penalty multiplier should be around 2.5 give or take 0.5 to your tastes
  
• damage to energy draw convertion on SRMs should be lowered to 0.15 (to get anywhere near the GH system, SRMs are hot themselves)
  
• damage to energy draw convertion on PPCs (all sorts of them) should go from 1.0-0.9 (at present) to 1.25.

LRMs haven't checked. Low range weapons should have less energy draw or there is no reason to pack those.
Estimation done comparing present GH table from Smurfy's with one calculated for ED.

[ScarecrowES]

As others have stated... preventing alphas outright is not a consideration of the new system. Being able to alpha has never been a problem. Being able to alpha, relatively coolly, over and over and over again is a problem. Well, I'm not even sure it's a problem, to be honest. But that's the crux of many player's complaints.

Let's face it. A game where you couldn't alpha at all... especially under such a convoluted system as this where stagger fire still presents itself as an alpha because how the mechanics of the system are set... would be a terrible terrible game.

You want to be able to alpha some of the time, but not all of the time, and this system does that.

I agree with Rampage that some weapons will need adjustments. I disagree about lasers, SRMs and PPCs. Lasers right now feel pretty well controlled without going into straight laser superiority, as has been the case for a long time. They're reigned in but not straight-up nerfed, which is just about right. If this new system handles any weapon WELL, it's lasers.

PPCs actually feel viable under the new system in a way that just wasn't possible under the old one. My Warhawk Prime has been completely useless since launch because of how poorly PPCs are handled. It was almost viable during my play session last night, finally letting it compete as a long range support mech as it was designed. PPCs have always been overly punished, getting ridiculous nerfs because of an irrational fear of a poptart resurgence. Given what a high-commitment weapon it is (high heat and needing lots of sinks to compensate) this is a weapon you WANT players to choose over LPLs if you want to push TTK up.

So far in my testing, the ED on SRMs feels pretty good. Lots of small launcher combos skirt under the penalty, so lighter mechs that relied on SRMs are safe. Penalties kick in at anything over 18 missiles, which is basically where ghost heat was set anyway.

Some weapons that need to be addressed are gauss rifles and LRMs. LRMs need to have pretty much NO heat penalty. In a few rounds of testing last night, playing anything with LRMs was pointless. This is already a weapon on the wrong side of viability, and to penalize large launchers even further is a very bad idea. Further reinforcing the idea that only large clusters of small LRM launchers fired sequentially is a mistake. Once you pair LRMs with anything else, forget it. Mixed builds with LRMs and long-range weapons just don't work. Due to their indirect-fire nature, we might consider exempting LRMs from ED outright. If not exempted, then drop the modifier to below 50%.

Right now, gauss basically gets around the ED heat penalty, getting away with a mere 17 heat spike if you fire dual goose at max ED. That's nothing for 30 damage. Either keep it the way it is and bring back charge, or double the heat penalty.

[GabrielSun]

Are weapons themselves targeted by their own overheating damage? If not, maybe we should apply it to the weapons themselves first, then to surrounding components. When you start blowing your ability to do damage off your own mech you might start to take it easy.

[Boldar]

I think the recovery rate of 20 might be too high.

With the increased cooldowns maybe 15 recovery per second or maybe even 10 would be better.

Then you can pull the trigger for an alpha that uses 100 energy and it would take longer than the weapon cooldown to be able to fire again. Except you override, of course...

[justcallme A S H]

Znail, on 19 August 2016 - 06:24 AM, said:

They even mention this in the article, so it's hardly unintended. Higher alphas will be possible, but with a penalty to the sustained dps.

You could get some seriously large alphas in the old system without any penalty at all, when now you will face a penalty no matter what if you go above the limit.

So you could get a 5 LPL Alpha in the current system without penalty?

Ok then.

To be able to alpha 5 LPL will mean two pilots working together can effectively kill any mech in the battlefield. TTK has essentially been massively reduced because of it.

And don't trot out the "hitscan" rubbish of lasers. To a pilot that has not seen the enemy, you'll be dead before he even realises he has been shot even with assault levels of armour/structure with even a half decent shot and keeping 80% of the laser on target.

DPS means nothing if you kill the mech you are shooting at in 1 second as DPS is no longer relevant the higher the alpha.

Edited by R31Nismoid, 19 August 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

ScarecrowES, on 19 August 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

PPCs actually feel viable under the new system in a way that just wasn't possible under the old one. My Warhawk Prime has been completely useless since launch because of how poorly PPCs are handled.

What?

I was running, incidentally, a Quad ERPPC Warhawk last night, in T1 matches (Solo and Group), no problems racking up 600+ damage every single game.

And this is on Mining Collective and other tight maps, not a sniper fest like Alpine.

Far from useless if you know what you're doing.

To be able to fire MORE PPCs (aka, earlier post in this thread) before penalty's, is not a good thing.

[Lord0fHats]

R31Nismoid, on 19 August 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

DPS means nothing if you kill the mech you are shooting at in 1 second as DPS is no longer relevant the higher the alpha.

This. This new system never made much sense to me, and it made even less sense now.

Good job. We've reduced the sustained damage of alpha mechs, who already had low sustained damage to begin with, and at the same time buffed the power to alpha.

What was this change supposed to fix? This is just a return to the poptart meta (easily the time of MWO I hated the most) minus the poptarting with with even higher pinpoint damage. Load up on PPCs and and go to town.

[justcallme A S H]

Yep, poptart ahoy.

I'm kinda glad I've been playing mostly PPC Poptarts for the last 6-8 weeks to try better my aim/try a different style etc.