102 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Now the first post is far more detailed. Now....Let's take a crack at balancing this before Paul sees it.
How big would the energy and ammo reserves be? And how quickly do they recharge?

I think the current recharge on the PTS is too fast. So maybe 2-3 points per second with 30 points reserve in each pool?

If you want to limit uacs then not higher than 20 and even 20 is dakkacrab.

And 2-3 energy regen would simply make it into heat bar...

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 10:27 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

No, can we please stop trying to make things more complicated? This is EXACTLY what leads to boating because it is simpler to manage, please, just no.

[Cy Mitchell]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

The main idea is to make balanced and mixed builds effective compared on boating on just one weapon type.

In this suggestion, the mech is considered to have an ammo loading system that can reload different ammo based weapons, depending on their round type and size.

Example:

• Example: Reloading a large AC round takes up a lot more reloading capacity than 2 or 3 smaller ACs (just rough numbers)
  
• Putting pressure on the loading mechanism (going over the reload capacity can slow down the reload process of all your ammo based weapons or make them reload in sequence (by putting them in a reload queue)

A separate ammo reload "pool" with appropriate, and severe enough penalties for each, encourages using different weapons in a complementary fashion instead of trying to find the coolest and fastest 30dmg alpha.


This is something that I think will improve upon the current system.
I may have overlooked something and would welcome any discussion.

so, What do you think?
will it work?

I have long been a proponent of a reload system like you are describing. The system IMO should be tied to rate of fire for your ballistic and missile systems. The more weapons that you add of the same type the more you tax the limited system and the slower your maximum ROF. The Power Draw system already does some of this in a roundabout way but lumping all the different types of weapons into one pool also causes some issues. Having lasers and PPC in the Energy pool and missile /ballistics in the reload pool with Gauss in both pools because of the reload and the power need to launch the projectile makes sense and could solve some of the mixed weapon system problems that people say they are experiencing. Of course, it may cause some yet unforeseen issues too and would be another element to balance. I think it would be worth it but will PGI feel the same way?

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

No, can we please stop trying to make things more complicated? This is EXACTLY what leads to boating because it is simpler to manage, please, just no.

Well, due to the simplicity and lowered penalties, boating is EXACTLY what ED encourages. No GH = boating. ED = Boating. The only time boating is not encouraged is when you place strict limits on boating as under GH, or Navid's system. GH had loopholes because there were too many rules. Navid's system is actually pretty simple... different gauges for different types of weapons. Greatly discourages boating, and it's really not even remotely complex. It's even more intuitive than basic ED is, as you'd expect ammo-based weapons to have different draw than energy ones.

Besides, this could actually have a more positive effect on alphas than current ED has... I'd expect lower limits for each bar than the one bar of ED.

[Navid A1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

No, can we please stop trying to make things more complicated? This is EXACTLY what leads to boating because it is simpler to manage, please, just no.

How will it lead to boating?
I want to know, if there is a flaw.
When you limit both pool sizes with appropriate penalties, the only way is to go towards combining weapon types,

[Spleenslitta]

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

If you want to limit uacs then not higher than 20 and even 20 is dakkacrab.

And 2-3 energy regen would simply make it into heat bar...

20 ammo pool and energy pool is fine by me. 2-3 energy regen and 2-3 ammo feed per second is fine by me too.
It wouldn't be a heat bar with 2-3 because right now the 5 regen doesn't keep smaller mechs grounded much when it comes to how much alpha they can do.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

No, can we please stop trying to make things more complicated? This is EXACTLY what leads to boating because it is simpler to manage, please, just no.

Umm...You want to stop making thing more complicated but you say simplyfying things leads to boating. I don't understand whether you want boating or not.

For the record...me and Navid don't get along much....we have been ticked off at each other plenty of times.
But the more i think about it the more convinced i get that his idea for encouraging mixed weapon loadouts is better than my own idea.
Should that not tell you there is a merit to his idea?

My idea may lead to better balance eventually. But it's harder to balance because it's so advanced.
Harsher learning curve too.
Here...have a go at understanding what goes through my head. That is complicated...And i limited myself to boot.
If i had things my way there would be no more convergence on torso weapons and a local heat system would put in place.
Ammo explosions would be far more likely and Flamers would be detonating unarmored ammo when crited. The list goes on.
Link
Spleen's Energy Draw Feedback.


Navid wants to put a limit on how much ammo you can feed your ammo dependant weapons and a limit on how much energy you can supply your energy weapons.
It encourages mixed weapon loadouts because you cannot use a pure close range laser boat without running out of energy constantly.
You cannot use only ammo dependant weapons either because then your ammo feeds get clogged up with ammo thus making reloads for an AC40/ LRM60/ /dual gauss /splatcat or whatever very, very long.

If you want to run a pure ammo or energy build you better use weapons with different ranges.

New Energy boat would be something like this: 1 longrange weapon, bunch of short range weapons that doesn't consume all your energy.
Maybe a couple of middle range weapons to help out the long range weapon when the enemy gets closer.
Don't use long range weapon at close range unless it's an emergency and you can keep your other weapons feed with energy.

Same setup with a pure ammo dependant weapons boat. Mix of ranges.

Or you go for having a BIIIG engine and fewer weapons.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 20 August 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[davoodoo]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

20 ammo pool and energy pool is fine by me. 2-3 energy regen and 2-3 ammo feed per second is fine by me too.
It wouldn't be a heat bar with 2-3 because right now the 5 regen doesn't keep smaller mechs grounded much when it comes to how much alpha they can do.

Its not 5 now, bar fills completely under a second.


5 would mean 6 seconds to fill it, 2-3 would need 10-7 secdonds to fill 20, at which point yes its a heat bar, funnily enough 2 engine dhs is 2heat/s

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 11:09 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Umm...You want to stop making thing more complicated but you say simplyfying things leads to boating. I don't understand whether you want boating or not.

No, I'm saying that complicating things leads to boating, not sure how you got that.

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

How will it lead to boating?
I want to know, if there is a flaw.
When you limit both pool sizes with appropriate penalties, the only way is to go towards combining weapon types,

Because it is a convoluted system, I'm going to go with what's simple and most effective. Having to manage three separate bars just to enforce mixed builds is just bad game design for an FPS especially since the easier way to go about this is to just give weapons synergy and stop complaining when a combo actually appears.

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

Well, due to the simplicity and lowered penalties, boating is EXACTLY what ED encourages.

First, boating shouldn't be outright killed, boats are there for a reason, not everything is blessed with mixed hardpoints.
Second, if boating is encouraged by basically everything but the currently odd Ghost Heat, maybe that should tell you something about the problem? Stop trying to apply band-aids and fix the weapon synergy problem.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

First, boating shouldn't be outright killed, boats are there for a reason, not everything is blessed with mixed hardpoints.

hbk 4p mlas boat.
awesome 8q ppc boat
Novas mlas boat
warhawk prime another ppc boat

But thats pure boats though most mechs simply carried 1 set of weapons for range and mediums as close range backups.

Then again tt fixed alphas by not fixing alphas as it wasnt needed because they had this thing called hit table which ensured you wont put your precious 60 dmg alpha all into ct.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

First, boating shouldn't be outright killed, boats are there for a reason, not everything is blessed with mixed hardpoints.
Second, if boating is encouraged by basically everything but the currently odd Ghost Heat, maybe that should tell you something about the problem? Stop trying to apply band-aids and fix the weapon synergy problem.

No, boating should not be killed. But it should be DISCOURAGED. Greatly discouraged.

And yeah... PGI created this mess when they made a system with a massive heat scale and then added hardpoint inflation on top of that. It's rare in BT to see boating. There's a reason that most stock mechs mount the largest weapons they can. So yeah, the desire to boat is built in to MWO's core systems. They make it much more desirable to mount many small weapons... something that simply isn't viable for most cases in BT.

Since I'm sure we're not about to go back and undo 4 years of development and redesign MWO's core systems, though, band-aids - which let's be clear... Energy Draw itself is a massive BAND-AID - is the only choice we have.

Ghost heat, for all its flaws, has produced a balancing environment in the live game which is the best it's ever been. Noone seems to disagree that the state of balance now is good. AND the variety of builds in the live game right now is better than it's ever been. Noone would disagree with that either.

Why, then, move to a system that undoes all the good GH has done?

Or, simply put... what exactly is ED doing BETTER?

Does it reduce alphas? No. It has actually INCREASED alphas.

Does it reduce TTK? No, and in some case it has reduced TTK by taking the reigns off alphas.

Does it discourage boating? No. Boating is both easier and better rewarded.

Does it encourage mixed builds? No. Mixed builds are worse off than under GH.

Does it eliminate loopholes? No. Due to the lower penalties and mechanics of the system, it's possible to do higher amounts of damage while incurring fewer heat penalties than under GH... just through different methods.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 20 August 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

hbk 4p mlas boat.
awesome 8q ppc boat
Novas mlas boat
warhawk prime another ppc boat

There are more boats than that in the BT universe, a lot more.

[Spleenslitta]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

No, I'm saying that complicating things leads to boating, not sure how you got that.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

No, can we please stop trying to make things more complicated? This is EXACTLY what leads to boating because it is simpler to manage, please, just no.

English is not my first language. But that sentence can be interpreted in different ways...
Stop making things complicated because it's easier to manage...that's kind of a grammar conundrum to me.

Maybe you meant simplyfied things are harder to break. Then i understand what you mean.
My missunderstanding then. But i think Navid's idea is very simple....extremely simple by my standards anyhow.

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Its not 5 now, bar fills completely under a second.

5 would mean 6 seconds to fill it, 2-3 would need 10-7 secdonds to fill 20, at which point yes its a heat bar, funnily enough 2 engine dhs is 2heat/s

It fills under a second? I swear when i first saw PGI's announcement it said 5 energy refilled per second.
Maybe i remember wrong. Now it says this anyways.

Energy Refill Rate: The rate at which your Current ‘Mech Energy Value will refill.
• Every ‘Mech in the PTS build currently has the same Energy Refill Rate of 20 Energy per second.

If so 5 or 8 energy per second for the ammo and energy pool sounds more reasonable. Maybe with some variation depending on the weapon slots on a mech to help pure energy/ammo boats.
What do you think?

Edited by Spleenslitta, 20 August 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

No, boating should not be killed. But it should be DISCOURAGED. Greatly discouraged.

Why exactly? You hurt a lot of builds by doing it, and in general, mixed builds are better, it is just most mechs don't support them very well due to tonnage or hardpoints.

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

And yeah... PGI created this mess when they made a system with a massive heat scale and then added hardpoint inflation on top of that.

Hardpoint inflation has nothing to do with this, the heat system does have something to do with this however.

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

It's rare in BT to see boating. There's a reason that most stock mechs mount the largest weapons they can.

I'm calling BS on both of these, sorry but boating is fairly common in BT and many stock mechs do NOT mount the largest weapons they can because many are not optimized.

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

They make it much more desirable to mount many small weapons... something that simply isn't viable for most cases in BT.

What small weapons are even boated in the meta currently? Only lights really boat small weapons, otherwise it is PPC/Dakka/Gauss, so if you are worried about that then your mission is already accomplished.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 August 2016 - 11:26 AM.

[Navid A1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

No, I'm saying that complicating things leads to boating, not sure how you got that.


Because it is a convoluted system, I'm going to go with what's simple and most effective. Having to manage three separate bars just to enforce mixed builds is just bad game design for an FPS especially since the easier way to go about this is to just give weapons synergy and stop complaining when a combo actually appears.


First, boating shouldn't be outright killed, boats are there for a reason, not everything is blessed with mixed hardpoints.
Second, if boating is encouraged by basically everything but the currently odd Ghost Heat, maybe that should tell you something about the problem? Stop trying to apply band-aids and fix the weapon synergy problem.

Its less convoluted than what we currently have with energy draw. You only need to manage your output when you are boating.
nothing will change if you have a balanced build.
Much like ghost heat... you manage it when you are building your mech...

You can't just build a mech which you know will trigger penalties and complain about a convoluted system... it is designed to prevent you from doing something like that...
Take a 4 PPC warhawk for example... don't you need to "manage" it?... you very well do... that is what you should do if you want to play that.

As for mechs with no Ammo based hardpoints or no energy hardpoints, you can always have a system giving larger pools to those mechs (kinda like quirks)

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

There are more boats than that in the BT universe, a lot more.

Just a few i got on top of my mind from mwo.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Its less convoluted than what we currently have with energy draw. You only need to manage your output when you are boating.

It is convoluted, just because a balance build "shouldn't" have to worry about this doesn't mean it isn't more complicated, you have 3 different bars that I have to keep in mind when building a mech and playing one if I didn't build it right or happen to be playing a mech that is stuck with mostly one weapon types (of which these are numerous).

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

As for mechs with no Ammo based hardpoints or no energy hardpoints, you can always have a system giving larger pools to those mechs (kinda like quirks)

Or you could scrap this system and just give those mechs buffs to the point where mixing may be a thing since they may not be able to do anything else.

[Navid A1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Why exactly? You hurt a lot of builds by doing it, and in general, mixed builds are better, it is just most mechs don't support them very well due to tonnage or hardpoints.

Imagine a Dire wolf with UACs and medium lasers in energy draw. A mixed build. Now go on PTS and play it and see how that works.

Imagine something with a single AC10, 2 SRM 6s and a single med laser... that thing is punished so hard in all sorts of ways in the current energy draw system.
Linking ACs and lasers alone, is a recipe for failure... let alone LRMs and lasers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Imagine a Dire wolf with UACs and medium lasers in energy draw. A mixed build. Now go on PTS and play it and see how that works.

Imagine something with a single AC10, 2 SRM 6s and a single med laser... that thing is punished so hard in all sorts of ways in the current energy draw system.
Linking ACs and lasers alone, is a recipe for failure... let alone LRMs and lasers.

Look, I'm not saying that energy draw is great, I'd much prefer ghost heat with some fixes to penalties (WTB 3 PPC threshold plox), but your system isn't really any better. In fact, your example build would most likely be hurt by it because it mounts 3 ammo based weapons and a single laser. Are you gonna add another bar to separate ballistics and missiles so that mechs designed around those aren't hurt?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 August 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[davoodoo]

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

There's a reason that most stock mechs mount the largest weapons they can. So yeah, the desire to boat is built in to MWO's core systems. They make it much more desirable to mount many small weapons... something that simply isn't viable for most cases in BT.

Let me stop you there, many mechs in battletech mount large weapons as they have higher range, 1 set of long range weapons and one of short.
Marauder - "The Marauder carried a payload dedicated to long-range firepower in the form of two Magna Hellstar PPCs and a GM Whirlwind Autocannon/5. These three weapons all had similar range profiles that allowed the Marauder use them to their maximum effect at long ranges...If the enemy was able to close the range, the Marauder could rely on its two Magna Mk II Medium Lasers, also mounted in the gauntlets, which provided adequate defense against other 'Mechs."

When there are mechs like nova which can simply jump into enemy positions and unload with dozen of mlas they do it, also mechs for urban combat carried short range weaponry and best example of 1 is hunchback or walking trashcan(urbanmech) which had relatively small engine and only short range weaponry.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

It is convoluted, just because a balance build "shouldn't" have to worry about this doesn't mean it isn't more complicated, you have 3 different bars that I have to keep in mind when building a mech and playing one if I didn't build it right or happen to be playing a mech that is stuck with mostly one weapon types (of which these are numerous).


Or you could scrap this system and just give those mechs buffs to the point where mixing may be a thing since they may not be able to do anything else.

Or we just scrap both ED and GH and reduce the heat scale so the game doesn't give a rat's *** about where your damage is coming from, or whether you did 30-damage too quickly, etc etc... it just punishes too much output in a given amount of time using the system that's already designed to do that in the first place.

Would this not be preferable to varying types of band-aids?

If we're going to have band-aids at all, Navid's is probably the better one of the 3.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 20 August 2016 - 11:37 AM.