102 replies to this topic

[TKSax]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

I disagree with that part.

Please explain to me how any Mechwarrior game has not been an First Person Simulator.

[davoodoo]

TKSax, on 20 August 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Please explain to me how any Mechwarrior game has not been an First Person Simulator.

mw4, easy heat and ammo management, point and click.
Even if you ****** up heat mangement you simply flushed coolant...

The real catcher was that you piloted a mech, it was fast but it wasnt nimble, it was hard to hit specific part on a moving mech and aiming wasnt so smooth as it is here. Required no ghost heat, no energy draw and hardpoint were way too generous to the point where you ismply couldnt fill them all due to lack of tonnage, it required no burn time on lasers, projectiles were hitscan(or so fast that they looked like hitscan).

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 01:11 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

So rather than making that inherent mix better, you just want to force that mech to use a potentially worse off build?

Here are the reasons why it would not be worse if these mechanics of Navid was put into the game.
1- This would affect all mechs so it would only be worse if you compare brute firepower and pin point damage of the old system versus the new.
But the old would no longer be there. Put that away and think new.

2- Have you ever had a duel that was where both you and the opponent could have won with a scratch from a single ML?
I have had those kind of duels. They were thrilling duels of fighting for the slightest advantage.
But the current MWO rarelly have those duels. Most duels are nearly over after the first alpha strike.
Getting shot in the front by an AC40 in a light mech and it's likely that you die instantly...especially if you have suffered some minor damage before.

3- True skill in a CoD shooter lies in being able to kill in a single shot.
MWO is not supposed to be a CoD shooter (yes i said it again). It's about huge robots with tonns of armor.
That armor is paperthin the way things are now because of all the AC40, Dual Gauss and laserboats.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

You ever think that managing resources isn't necessarily part of what makes it a "thinking" man's game? Positioning matters far more than it normally does in a typical FPS.

Oh...i'm very much familiar with how important positioning is. I would not have written this guide otherwise.
http://mwomercs.com/...-tactics-guide/

That light mech guide is all about positioning. Constant relocation, feints and mind trickery with builds that others would find hideous.
But imagine if you had to manage both resources and positioning....that would require more thinking than the current CoD MWO.
Shooting a mech with 5x LPL and winning instantly does not demand skill nor thought.

Hammering an opponent with various weapons in the same spot over and over again while maneuvering, keeping an eye on heat, ammo and energy bars would demand something of us.
That would be a thrill. Truly a duel as described in the BT novels.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 20 August 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[TKSax]

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

mw4, easy heat and ammo management, point and click.
Even if you ****** up heat mangement you simply flushed coolant...

The real catcher was that you piloted a mech, it was fast but it wasnt nimble, it was hard to hit specific part on a moving mech and aiming wasnt so smooth as it is here. Required no ghost heat, no energy draw and hardpoint were way too generous to the point where you ismply couldnt fill them all due to lack of tonnage, it required no burn time on lasers, projectiles were hitscan(or so fast that they looked like hitscan).

All of that does not change the fact that the are an FPS.

[MechaBattler]

I feel the simpler thing to do is combine ghost heat with this mechanic. Boating weapons incurs extra energy draw. In universe, it makes no sense. But as a game mechanic it makes sense and people are already familiar with the concept.

[Spleenslitta]

TKSax, on 20 August 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

All of that does not change the fact that the are an FPS.

MWO is an FPS. Yes...but it's supposed to be an FPS inside a mech with armor weighing several tonns.
The walking and running feels like it's such a huge robot. The HUD and cockpit looks like it's from inside a huge robot.
But these robots gets destroyed too fast because it's so easy to build mechs that kill with just a single click.

It's nothing like in the BT novels or the TT game. PGI wanted to stay true to the lore and they have strayed from it.
There is little thrill in destroying an opponent by clicking once.
A long brawl and wrestling match where you measure your strenght, cunning and skill against your opponent....now that is thrilling.

Imagine if you paid looooads of money to sit ringside during the greatest boxing match in history.
The two boxers meet and exchange two blows each other and then it's over. The match lasted 3 seconds.
Now it's time for you to go home and you can't get a refund despite the match being so short.

It was supposed to be a match lasting many minutes but it was over in 3 seconds.

[TKSax]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

MWO is an FPS. Yes...but it's supposed to be an FPS inside a mech with armor weighing several tonns.
The walking and running feels like it's such a huge robot. The HUD and cockpit looks like it's from inside a huge robot.
But these robots gets destroyed too fast because it's so easy to build mechs that kill with just a single click.

The new ED feature and even the on proposed will really not change TTK what has already effect TTK on the PTS is not the ED system but the fact that the globally raised cooldown.

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

It's nothing like in the BT novels or the TT game. PGI wanted to stay true to the lore and they have strayed from it.
There is little thrill in destroying an opponent by clicking once.
A long brawl and wrestling match where you measure your strenght, cunning and skill against your opponent....now that is thrilling.

Not just PGI but every Mechwarrior game has been like this, I have never played TT, I have read all the novels and I have enjoyed every mechwarrior game. Sure I would love more depth and more lore in this game, but If you ever played MW3 there was a lot in that game that was good as far as piloting that could be added to this game without adding more convoluted systems.

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Imagine if you paid looooads of money to sit ringside during the greatest boxing match in history.
The two boxers meet and exchange two blows each other and then it's over. The match lasted 3 seconds.
Now it's time for you to go home and you can't get a refund despite the match being so short.

It was supposed to be a match lasting many minutes but it was over in 3 seconds.

You ever hear of Mike Tyson, people were paying lots to sit ringside in hopes he would knock a guy out in the first minute or less which he did.

[Miles McQuiston]

The system of ghost heat works/ED. It should be set at 20 for each weapon type: energy, ballistic, SRM, and LRM. Combined cap at 30 total before "heat/energy draw effects take place". Make shutdown 15 seconds when triggered and the penalties for override more significant. Call it ED, Ghost Heat, ETC... point is it should discourage alpha strikes and boating. Would pretty much force mixed range and encourage mixed loadout. You could even decouple LRM from the 30 total but enforce the 20 total on the group and include chain fire.

Mechs without a variety of hard-points are still fine they just can't fire over a 20 point alpha without heat penalty. I would scale the total such that 40 points or more alpha strike is instant shutdown. Time shutdown scales based off size of alpha 40 - 8 seconds, 50 - 12 seconds, 60 - 15 seconds, + weapon destruction occurs due to (power surge or whatever).

As it stands the single weapon type mechs have had there go. The poke game is gonna have increased time to kill applied, brawlers will get some help as needed. I would like to see it tried at least.

[Spleenslitta]

We each have our opinions. They are all valid in our eyes. Let's agree to disagree.
Those who disagree with Navid have said so. Your opinion is noted.
Let us who want to talk about Navid's idea talk now and make it balanced with no further interruptions from those who oppose it.

[TKSax]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

We each have our opinions. They are all valid in our eyes. Let's agree to disagree.
Those who disagree with Navid have said so. Your opinion is noted.
Let us who want to talk about Navid's idea talk now and make it balanced with no further interruptions from those who oppose it.

Here's the problem, you can talk about Navid's idea all you want, but its never going to be adopted by PGI. ED been Russ's pet project and as we have seen with Long Tom, its going to take a lot for him to change. So you once again wasting your time by talking about a system that will never see the light of day.

[Miles McQuiston]

Oh and to comment on the paying to watch Mike Tyson to knock someone out in 5 seconds yep people do it, but change you perspective to being the one that gets knocked out by Tyson and having to pay for that experience.

I think you need ED and ghost heat. Ghost heat to cap weapons of a particular type and ED to curb the alpha strike.

[Spleenslitta]

TKSax, on 20 August 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Here's the problem, you can talk about Navid's idea all you want, but its never going to be adopted by PGI. ED been Russ's pet project and as we have seen with Long Tom, its going to take a lot for him to change. So you once again wasting your time by talking about a system that will never see the light of day.

Then so have you and everyone who oppose Navid's idea. You wasted your time too.
I know it's unlikely that Russ and Paul can be influenced but at least we try because that is all we can do....All we can do is try.

[Navid A1]

TKSax, on 20 August 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Here's the problem, you can talk about Navid's idea all you want, but its never going to be adopted by PGI. ED been Russ's pet project and as we have seen with Long Tom, its going to take a lot for him to change. So you once again wasting your time by talking about a system that will never see the light of day.

I'm only trying to improve upon Russ's pet project.

That is basically what seems logical after playing with many builds and combinations and considering ED is going to stay.

If Russ don't want to change it, its his game and his product.
I was asked about feedback and suggestions... and based on what I saw in the PTS, I'm giving my feedback and suggestions.

Is it the solution? maybe. It needs to be tested.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 August 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

But imagine if you had to manage both resources and positioning....that would require more thinking than the current CoD MWO.

There are limitations to how much your brain can do at once dynamically not to mention the impact on strategies by forcing more management can actually force unfortunate shifts in the meta generally towards pushing the harder long range becomes.

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

Truly a duel as described in the BT novels.

You will never get that in this game, the fluff you want so badly will always differ because this is a team game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 August 2016 - 02:27 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

How about we make some mixed and pure energy/ammo builds with a heavy or assault mech?
Then we try analyzing how much of an energy and ammo pool and regen we would need.

How about the Warhammer? It has both pure energy boat and mixed weapon slots. It's also capable of mounting a decent amount of weapons.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

There are limitations to how much your brain can do at once.

I managed to play that DCS simulator i mentioned in post 52# and i'm not that smart. If you can drive a car you can keep an eye on 3 different bars.
Try going back to post 52# and look at the pictures. Read what i wrotte in that post.
Navid's energy and ammo bar would be childsplay in comparison.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

You will never get that in this game, the fluff you want so badly will always differ because this is a team game.

I have had such duels. They are just very incredibly rare. But they stuck in my mind for years.
I still remember that duel i had with an Atlas from back when Caustic Valley had just been introduced to MWO.
When was that? Don't remember when Caustic Valley arrived....
I remember almost everything i did scene by scene. It was glorious and both teams let us fight alone with no interference because it was so epic.

The praise from my teammate stuck till this day "All hail that loon in a Jenner"
You don't get many of those kind of memories from todays MWO. I will remember that duel till the day i joyfully do bunnyhops into my grave.

And i am aware this is a teamgame. But what i'm refering to isn't just duels.
I'm referring mostly to the one click one kill CoD style builds that should not belong in MWO.
Tonns of armor is not supposed to be destroyed so easily.

You should stop wasting your time on convincing me and just agree to disagree.
Now if you will excuse me i will attempt to help.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I managed to play that DCS simulator i mentioned in post 52# and i'm not that smart. If you can drive a car you can keep an eye on 3 different bars.
Try going back to post 52# and look at the pictures. Read what i wrotte in that post.
Navid's energy and ammo bar would be childsplay in comparison.

I don't really care about a simulator game, I don't think this game needs nor should it become a simulator. If you want to kill off half the playerbase, then sure, go ahead, but I would love to see this game's playerbase expand.

Spleenslitta, on 20 August 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

And i am aware this is a teamgame. But what i'm refering to isn't just duels.
I'm referring mostly to the one click one kill CoD style builds that should not belong in MWO.
Tonns of armor is not supposed to be destroyed so easily.

Now if you will excuse me i will attempt to help.

Maybe you should stop using hyperbole then, because it doesn't help your case at all?

[Kuaron]

I like OPs suggestion from the opening post.
I also don’t think it would make things more complicated: How much of your ballistics or energy you drain per shot is something you calculate in the Mechlab. It is, kind of, similar to the GH 1.0 putting the weapons in a few different groups instead of a group per weapon. (In GH 1.0 you fire 3 LL + 6 ML without penalty, but not 4 LL, which is ugly.)
Now, instead of specific numbers for specific weapons, you get a single damage number per entire weapon class. Which is not ugly.

A question is: Is it lore-wise or game-wise appropriate to put missiles into the ballistics linked group and this way penalize mixing missiles with ballistics as much as boating ballistics only?

[Matthew Ace]

Miles McQuiston, on 20 August 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

The system of ghost heat works/ED. It should be set at 20 for each weapon type: energy, ballistic, SRM, and LRM. Combined cap at 30 total before "heat/energy draw effects take place". Make shutdown 15 seconds when triggered and the penalties for override more significant. Call it ED, Ghost Heat, ETC... point is it should discourage alpha strikes and boating. Would pretty much force mixed range and encourage mixed loadout. You could even decouple LRM from the 30 total but enforce the 20 total on the group and include chain fire.

Mechs without a variety of hard-points are still fine they just can't fire over a 20 point alpha without heat penalty. I would scale the total such that 40 points or more alpha strike is instant shutdown. Time shutdown scales based off size of alpha 40 - 8 seconds, 50 - 12 seconds, 60 - 15 seconds, + weapon destruction occurs due to (power surge or whatever).

As it stands the single weapon type mechs have had there go. The poke game is gonna have increased time to kill applied, brawlers will get some help as needed. I would like to see it tried at least.

Hmm, you might be onto something.

[FannyBoss]

Anything else aside, it allows for a ridiculous build like dual ac20 and six medium lasers on a Mauler with a massive 70 point alpha with no heat penalty. That's game breaking right there.

[Navid A1]

FannyBoss, on 20 August 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

Anything else aside, it allows for a ridiculous build like dual ac20 and six medium lasers on a Mauler with a massive 70 point alpha with no heat penalty. That's game breaking right there.

You can do that right now (in a small 270m radius). is that a serious meta build right now? no

With ghost heat, you get 11.5 excess heat for firing both AC20s, which is manageable. Funny thing is that you can do it 2 times in a row without shutting down.

With the new system, you alpha once and you are left without one of your auto cannons for twice the duration of an AC20 recycle time.

besides, energy pool and ammo capacity can very well vary among mechs. (something that PGI is considering right now.)

PTS is updating Monday, we will see what is changed.