102 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

The main idea is to make balanced and mixed builds effective compared on boating on just one weapon type.

In this suggestion, the mech is considered to have an ammo loading system that can reload different ammo based weapons, depending on their round type and size.

Example:

• Example: Reloading a large AC round takes up a lot more reloading capacity than 2 or 3 smaller ACs (just rough numbers)
  
• Putting pressure on the loading mechanism (going over the reload capacity can slow down the reload process of all your ammo based weapons or make them reload in sequence (by putting them in a reload queue)

A separate ammo reload "pool" with appropriate, and severe enough penalties for each, encourages using different weapons in a complementary fashion instead of trying to find the coolest and fastest 30dmg alpha.









How does it work?
Lets say that each mech have 25 reload capacity and 25 energy pool as base values

Now, for each mech you offset the pools based the percentage of E and B/M hardpoints out of the whole number of hardpoints with CT and head mounted hardpoints counted as 0.5.
Each pool will have a minimum of 0 and a max capped at 40.

Some examples:
Atlas-S (3* E - 1B - 4M):
37.5% energy = 18.8 energy pool
62.5 Ammo based = 31.2 reload capacity

KDK-3 (4B - 4E):
50% energy = 25 energy pool
50% ammo based = 25 reload capacity

KGC-000 (2E - 2M - 6B)
20% energy = 10 energy pool
80% ammo based = 40 reload capacity

BNC-3M (All E)
100% energy = 40 energy pool
0% ammo based = 0 reload capacity

MAL-2P (6E - 2B - 2M)
60% energy = 30 energy pool
40% ammo based = 20 reload cap.



Now we get to the weapons:
Here is what I'm thinking:

Lasers should require an energy requirement equal to = damage + (1 - duration) x 2
Which leads to:
ER LL = 8.5 ---- LL = 9 ---- ML = 5.2 ---- SL = 3.5
LPL = 11.6 ---- MPL = 6.8 ---- SPL = 5
C-ERLL = 10 ---- C-ERML = 6.7 ---- C-ERSL = 5
C-LPL = 12.8 ---- C-MPL = 8.3 ---- C-SPL = 6.5
(remember, these are energy values... not heat)

PPCs energy (based on damage):
PPC = 10, ERPPC = 10
C-ERPPC= 13.5


ACs reload cap requirement (damage, offset approximated by number of shells and spread):
AC20 = 20 ---- AC10 = 10 ---- AC5 = 5 ---- AC2 = 2 ---- UAC5 = 7 ---- LBX10 = 8
C-UAC = 18 ---- C-UAC10 = 9 ---- C-UAC5 = 6 ---- C-UAC2 = 2
C-LBX20 = 17 ---- C-LBX10 = 8 ---- C-LBX5 = 5 ---- C-LBX2 = 2
(C-AC same as LBX)

Gauss:
IS gauss = 10 energy and 15 reload
C-Gauss = 12 energy and 15 reload

Missiles reload cap required:
IS-SSRM2 = 2
LRM20 = 10 ---- LRM15 = 7 ---- LRM10 = 5 ---- LRM5 = 3
(Clan versions are the same)
SRM6 = 6 ---- SRM4 = 4 ---- SRM2 = 2
C-SRM6 = 7 ---- C-SRM4 = 5 ---- C-SRM2 = 2
C-SSRM6 = 8 ---- C-SSRM4 = 6 ---- C-SSRM2 = 3


High alphas? NOPE!
Because of the total cap of 40 to overall energy and reloa cap... and the penalties involved:

Penalties:
Going over the energy cap with result in heat for every energy unit over 100%
Example1: Firing 2 PPCs with a 10 mech energy pool will result in 29 heat. 19 from both PPCs and 10 from the penalty of going over the heat cap.
Going over double the heat cap results in double penalty.
Example2: Firing 3 PPCs with a 10 mech energy pool results in 58.5 heat. 28.5 from the weapon heat and 30 from overall penalties.


Going over the reload capacity slows down the reload speed of all your ammo based weapons according to how much you exceeded the reload capacity
Example1: Firing 2 AC20s in a mech with 30 ammo reload cap results in 50% more cooldown for all ammo based weapons on your mech.
Example2: Firing 1 AC20 with 4 SRM6s on an Atlas-S will result in 40% more cooldown for all ammo based weapons.


Gauss example:
KDK-3 with 2 gauss and 2 PPCs:
Alpha strike means that you get 20% more cooldown on both of your gauss rifles and you'll get 50 heat (28 from ERPPCs and 22 penalty for going over energy cap of 25)


MAL-2P example:
Firing 2 AC20s and 6MLs will result in 100% more cooldown on both AC20s and very small heat penalty of 1.2.



This is something that I think will improve upon the current system.
I may have overlooked something and would welcome any discussion.
These numbers are just from on top of my head... there may be some serious loop holes

so, What do you think?
will it work?

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2016 - 11:36 PM.

[FannyBoss]

Ammo reloading uses energy I don't see what adding an extra bar accomplishes,

[Navid A1]

FannyBoss, on 20 August 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Ammo reloading uses energy I don't see what adding an extra bar accomplishes,

You could reload thousands of autocannons simultaneously with the energy required to fire a PPC.

The main purpose is that It decouples weapons that have nothing to do with each other.
Mixed and balanced builds are mainly based on the idea that weapons of different fire mechanics such as auto cannons and lasers are meant to complement each other.
An LRM mech must be able to launch LRMs and use its laser with no penalty.

Back up weapons should have a purpose... to compliment the main weapons when they are reloading... they should not punish the main gun.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 August 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[Crushko]

I like this suggestion as a direction to go.

The issue with the current system as I wrote in my own topic is that this new system is basically Ghost Heat with all weapon groups linked which ofc will favour boating. Or in other words there is no benefit mixing things up as it is with Ghost Heat.

[davoodoo]

So acs use no energy besides reload??

ok fine with me, i have kdk3 with 4 uac10 and kgc with dual ac20 and ill certainly buy 4 uac20 direhwale.

Whats the point though...

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[FannyBoss]

Apparently to facilitate the kind of boating the OP prefers. Ballistic.

[Navid A1]

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

So acs use no energy besides reload??

ok fine with me, i have kdk3 with 4 uac10 and kgc with dual ac20 and ill certainly buy 4 uac20 direhwale.

Whats the point though...

Reload capacity basically addresses these as well... There is no way you could reload all those cannons with no cool down penalty.


For example a UAC10 will occupy its corresponding reload capacity as long as it is reloading... there is no pool recharge rate.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 August 2016 - 09:08 AM.

[Navid A1]

FannyBoss, on 20 August 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

Apparently to facilitate the kind of boating the OP prefers. Ballistic.

Nope... I can boat ballistics just fine right now.

The problem is when you want to create a balanced mech with missiles, lasers and ballistics.
When you want back up weapons... but your back up weapons actually punish your main gun(s)

[FannyBoss]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

You could reload thousands of autocannons simultaneously with the energy required to fire a PPC.

Not really. If you're familiar with Newtonian physics you know the autocannon has to generate the exact opposite force the propellant creates in launching the projectile or else firing the cannon would knock the mech over backwards. This uses energy fields, which is why there are no massive recoil systems on the autocannons like you see in real-life cannons. In fact the energy required to dampen a ballistic round should probably be higher than that required to accelerate particles in the PPC as the projectile has far more mass in the autocannon therefore to achieve similar velocity it requires far more energy from the propellant which has to be equally damped by the energy force fields.

TL;DR Physics dictate that autocannons should use more far more energy in firing than PPC do. Then add to that the fact they have to be physically reloaded and it's obvious they're already far more efficient than they ought to be.

[Navid A1]

FannyBoss, on 20 August 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Not really. If you're familiar with Newtonian physics you know the autocannon has to generate the exact opposite force the propellant creates in launching the projectile or else firing the cannon would knock the mech over backwards. This uses energy fields, which is why there are no massive recoil systems on the autocannons like you see in real-life cannons. In fact the energy required to dampen a ballistic round should probably be higher than that required to accelerate particles in the PPC as the projectile has far more mass in the autocannon therefore to achieve similar velocity it requires far more energy from the propellant which has to be equally damped by the energy force fields.

TL;DR Physics dictate that autocannons should use more far more energy in firing than PPC do. Then add to that the fact they have to be physically reloaded and it's obvious they're already far more efficient than they ought to be.

The energy required to fire a cannon is store chemically in the round it self... and the damping mechanism is mechanical, or hydraulic... it does not require "recharging".

You can reload a large cannon with a relatively small electric motor... yet you need upwards of 50 KW to fire a laser that can be considered a weapon.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 August 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[FannyBoss]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

and the damping mechanism is mechanical, or hydraulic... it does not require "recharging".

Yeah, but it isn't. Mechs use energy fields not mechanical or hydraulic dampers.

[Spleenslitta]

You and me may not agree on many things Navid. But this time i really like your idea.
I would prefer a more advanced method but my way would make for a much harsher learning curve and far more programming.
You idea is far easier to understand and balance Navid.

This ammo feed is about how much ammo the ammo canisters can feed to the weapons every second right?

If i understand Navid correct then using energy weapons uses up energy and ammo weapons can only be feed so much ammo per second.

If you fired 4x UAC20 you're reload would be extremely slow as the ammo tubes become overworked.
All those UAC20's would consume ammo faster than you can reload.

If implemented right then firing 2x UAC20 would be good for short term damage but a single UAC20 can steadily fire without any delays.
And firing 8x ML's would act similarly. You run out of energy on top of getting a huge amount of heat.
Ammo and energy are seperate things but you have much less energy than you have in the PTS.

Question is what kind of penalty for running out of energy or overloading the ammo feeds.
Possibility for a jam of reloads if you overload the ammo feeds maybe...
Example. Fire 4x UAC5 and the ammo feeds jam. You can fire whatever ammo you have inside your weapons but have to wait for the jam to clear before you get reloads.

It could also be a universal ammo feed. LRM, streak and SRM missiles, AC of all calibers, MG rounds, Gauss slugs all go through the same ammo feeding tubes.
Jam on one type of weapon and you jam all the reloads no matter the type of weapon.
The ammo feeds cannot keep up with a massive amount of ammo dependent weapons no matter what kinda combo it is.
The more ammo you tried to push through the longer the jam will last.

Possible run out of energy penalties
- Mech comes to a complete standstill till energy reservoirs get into the positives again.
- Cannot fire weapons.
- Mech becomes very sluggish and slow.
- HUD temporarily shuts down. Cannot get target locks, see minimap or any other HUD elements.


If we added some penalties for having high heat that would further encourage mixed weapon loadouts and increase TTK.
This is just an example. Thanks to IaIdabaoth for providing the numbers.
- Speed, acceleration/deceleration, turning, arm, and twist speed are reduced linearly starting at 30% heat, as follows:

30% heat: 100% speed
40% heat: 95% speed
50% heat: 90% speed
60% heat: 85% speed
70% heat: 80% speed
80% heat: 75% speed
90% heat: 70% speed
100% heat: 65% speed
- At 90% heat, you behave as if you were inside an enemy ECM bubble.
- at 100% and higher heat, in additional to CT internal structure damage, there's an increasing % chance of an ammunition explosion for non-Gauss ammo.

It would be a 3-way encouragement of using mixed weapon loadouts.
Don't use only energy weapons because you will run out of energy.
Don't use only ammo dependent weapons because you will jam your ammo feeds.
Don't get too hot because then your mech gets sluggish and slow.

If you have a mech using only energy weapons such as a Hunchback 4P you should concider a mix of long/medium/short range weapons.
Don't use long range weapons at close ranges and thus not become to hot or run out of energy.

If you have a mech using only ammo dependent weapons such as a Catapult A1 concider mixing LRM's and streak/SRM.
Use weapons at appropriate ranges and avoid ammo jams.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 20 August 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Navid A1]

FannyBoss, on 20 August 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Yeah, but it isn't. Mechs use energy fields not mechanical or hydraulic dampers.

If by that you mean magnetomotive force... then nope... in Battletech, Auto cannons are the well known classic cannons we have now.

[Spleenslitta]

There. I put a link to this thread inside my own feedback thread.
Is there anything i missunderstood Navid?
Could you update the first post with more words Navid? Make it easier for the devs to understand.

[ScarecrowES]

I'm all for this system.

Mechanically, it's 2 energy draw gauges... one for energy weapons, one for ammo-based weapons. This was something many of us said was a glaring problem in the proposed ED system when it was initially described to us... the concept that all weapons, even though they behaved quite differently and had different balancing requirements, should all be thrown into the same pool. As we said would be the case back then, this sort of system severely punishes the sorts of mixed builds that PGI and the community want to encourage.

Splitting the two groups of weapons into two separate gauges solves that problem.

It also can have the side-effect of curbing some of the increased alpha damage outputs we see under the current ED system if we lower each gauge to say... 25 draw? That means a 50-total draw for mixed builds, but reduced alpha capacities with higher heat penalties for boating builds?

[davoodoo]

FannyBoss, on 20 August 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Not really. If you're familiar with Newtonian physics you know the autocannon has to generate the exact opposite force the propellant creates in launching the projectile or else firing the cannon would knock the mech over backwards. This uses energy fields, which is why there are no massive recoil systems on the autocannons like you see in real-life cannons. In fact the energy required to dampen a ballistic round should probably be higher than that required to accelerate particles in the PPC as the projectile has far more mass in the autocannon therefore to achieve similar velocity it requires far more energy from the propellant which has to be equally damped by the energy force fields.

TL;DR Physics dictate that autocannons should use more far more energy in firing than PPC do. Then add to that the fact they have to be physically reloaded and it's obvious they're already far more efficient than they ought to be.

Mind you you got 100 ton mech standing on its legs, myomers which also compensate for recoil need to carry this weight and keep it stable and they do it basically without any energy expenditure, not to mention motion.

Then idk how much force this cannon could exert but i doubt more than 1 ton even for ac20 and uac20 even less. Elemental armor could handle this recoil.

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Reload capacity basically addresses these as well... There is no way you could reload all those cannons with no cool down penalty.


For example a UAC10 will occupy its corresponding reload capacity as long as it is reloading... there is no pool recharge rate.

Which is still beneficial as ill put all dmg into 1 spot at long range and go into chain at brawl without any major penatlies.
But then if penatlies are bigger than benefits from extra ac then you might aswell limit amount of ballistics you can take on a mech like they did with gauss.

Firing 4 uac10 at live produces 21 ghost heat on top of 12 they normally do, which takes 6 seconds to vent ghost heat at 20 dhs, how much cooldown will you add??

ScarecrowES, on 20 August 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

.It also can have the side-effect of curbing some of the increased alpha damage outputs we see under the current ED system if we lower each gauge to say... 25 draw? That means a 50-total draw for mixed builds, but reduced alpha capacities with higher heat penalties for boating builds?

Which will lead to ppc + ballistics mixed builds as meta and higher alphas but this time ppfld.
Pretty much current meta with gauss being replaced by ac10 or smth.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[Navid A1]

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Which is still beneficial as ill put all dmg into 1 spot at long range and go into chain at brawl without any major penatlies.
But then if penatlies are bigger than benefits from extra ac then you might aswell limit amount of ballistics you can take on a mech like they did with gauss.

Firing 4 uac10 at live produces 21 ghost heat on top of 12 they normally do, which takes 6 seconds to vent ghost heat at 20 dhs, how much cooldown will you add??

Lets say You have X reload capacity and each weapon (depending on its size) occupies a portion of that capacity when it is reloading, if your reload system is under full load then either of these cases can happen: 1- all weapon keep reloading but with much higher cooldown times or 2- weapons can be put on a reload queue in a first in first out manner.


LRMs may occupy less reload capacity to compensate for their indirect fire mechanism

Edited by Navid A1, 20 August 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[Navid A1]

davoodoo, on 20 August 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Which will lead to ppc + ballistics mixed builds as meta and nothing else.
Pretty much current meta with gauss being replaced by ac10 or smth.

To be honest, I don't think that PPC+AC is much of a problem right now.

Besides... there are talks about reducing laser burn times here and threre.

[davoodoo]

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

To be honest, I don't think that PPC+AC is much of a problem right now.

Besides... there are talks about reducing laser burn times here and threre.

Which still throws aim off as you need to lead with acs and you dont with lasers...

Navid A1, on 20 August 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Lets say You have X reload capacity and each weapon (depending on its size) occupies a portion of that capacity when it is reloading, if your reload system is under full load then either of these cases can happen: 1- all weapon keep reloading but with much higher cooldown times or 2- weapons can be put on a reload queue in a first in first out manner.


LRMs may occupy less reload capacity to compensate for their indirect fire mechanism

I understand how its supposed to work.

And i say that firing extra ac for longer cooldown is still beneficial as you stilll put high alphas into single spot.

Edited by davoodoo, 20 August 2016 - 10:23 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Now the first post is far more detailed. Now....Let's take a crack at balancing this before Paul sees it.
How big would the energy and ammo reserves be? And how quickly do they recharge?

I think the current recharge on the PTS is too fast. So maybe 2-3 points per second with 30 points reserve in each pool?