167 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Stone Wall, on 26 August 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

From what I've seen, the intention is to give a simple equation for heat and is raising the penalty on heat. You can still Alpha over 30, but you get added heat. Removing high Alphas completely, the system would just make you instant shut down for drawing too much energy. Luckily this isn't happening and you have Cool Shots.

The Overall Goals of Energy Draw

"The overall goal of the Energy Draw feature is to create a gameplay dynamic wherein a player can choose to focus on burst damage through Alpha Strikes, or sustained Damage per Second (DPS) through staggered fire. We’re aiming for each dynamic to have its own pros and cons and use-cases depending on in-game actions, rather than raw ‘Mech builds. The system is not meant to completely discourage Alpha-centric builds, nor is it intended to favor DPS builds."

Core principles state how do you want to achieve goal, goal states clearly, reduce alphas without removing them and somehow make it balanced with dps...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 03:23 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Exactly. You aren't stopped from Alpha'ing, but you are get a penalty that isn't needed to be checked through a spreadsheet.

[davoodoo]

Stone Wall, on 26 August 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

Exactly. You aren't stopped from Alpha'ing, but you are get a penalty that isn't needed to be checked through a spreadsheet.

Ofc im not stopped, it will simply put me out of fight for half a minute at best and shutdowns me at worst...despite me having nearly twice tonnage put into dhs than into weapons...

Tell me now how is that a viable playstyle?? cause that was a goal, to keep it viable...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 03:36 AM.

[Stone Wall]

davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

Ofc im not stopped, it will simply put me out of fight for half a minute at best and shutdowns me at worst...despite me having nearly twice tonnage put into dhs than into weapons...

Tell me now how is that a viable playstyle?? cause that was a goal, to keep it viable...

You have more armor, more heatsinks, and more weapons. You will have to manage all 3 instead of just Alpha vomitting to win. That's pretty MechWarrior right there.

Stock Mechs in MechWarrior 3 couldn't just Alpha Alpha Alpha. Most Alphas in those Mechs would almost shut you down and most builds had two weapon groups.

Edited by Stone Wall, 26 August 2016 - 03:42 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

This question is so complex, I simply don't trust the masses to have the right answer. It actually takes a lot of testing and simulation to fully understand the ramifications of using this system, and not a lot of people have the time or the inclination to put that much into it.

For 90% of the people testing Energy draw, I suspect that they're just playing a little bit with builds they were already using and then seeing how it feels. Not really going out of their way to test all the new constellations of weapons that would be effective and comparing them with what we have on the live server.

It would be a shame if PGI creates a roundtable to discuss the number of buckets in FP, but not one of the most fundamental game mechanics in all of MWO, which will have a major impact on both QP and FP (and Solaris, if we ever get it). This has the potential to drive away a lot more players than any kind of bucket solution in FP.

[davoodoo]

Stone Wall, on 26 August 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

You have more armor, more heatsinks, and more weapons. You will have to manage all 3 instead of just Alpha vomitting to win. That's pretty MechWarrior right there.

What mechwarrior??

if this was battletech franchise
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4edf23724a7d4ee
this underarmed hbk right here would be heat neutral...32 heat produced 38 dissipated, i shuld drop 2 heat sinks and add 9th mplas... for 64 alpha...

But no no no
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3646ef41c11ac3e
this right here can alpha once every 12 seconds or itll shutdown...
Viable gameplay... why wouldnt i just bring 5 medlas and alpha away for 30 dmg...
oh i know why
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6339fd2f8a91fc1
because it wasnt designed for such low weaponry and it results in wasted tonnage...
5 times as much tonnage in heat sinks as in weaponry, still not heat neutral...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 03:49 AM.

[Stone Wall]

Go try out MechWarrior 3. You can't Alpha strike to win. And MechWarrior 4 had hard points which reduced massive Alphas along with forcing long cool downs on weapons. Now the TT is the TT - different medium.

[davoodoo]

Stone Wall, on 26 August 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Go try out MechWarrior 3. You can't Alpha strike to win. And MechWarrior 4 had hard points which reduced massive Alphas along with forcing long cool downs on weapons. Now the TT is the TT - different medium.

15 mlas gladiator with 100% heat efficiency got different opinion... horribly undergunned but still fun build...

**** daishi could put 2 uac20, and 8 or more mlas and still got enough heat sinks to actually last through 1 v 8 battle without shutdown...

**** me stock nova with 12 mlas, could fire 1 of her arms without much worry about heat, unlike mwo where itll put your heat at 80-90%... and could even alpha all 2 times before shutdown... pretty much like in tt...

Oh and lets not forget 6 llas supernova which got 0 problems with heat management since enemy died before you could overheat, unless got -4 in your left eye and +4 in your right eye and cant aim for ****...

Hardpoints in mw4 were so liberal that you could put excessive weapons without worry and still had infinite slots for heat sinks...


And ofc you could alpha in mw3 no problem... and since you provided nothing to back your point and i can provide screenshots of ppl playing with 4 erppc
http://www.gry-onlin...055.asp?ID=6850
2nd image from this gallery

ill say you talk **** dear sir...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Stone Wall, on 26 August 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

You can't Alpha strike to win. And MechWarrior 4 had hard points which reduced massive Alphas along with forcing long cool downs on weapons.

Just FYI, ERLL spam at its height of MW4 was 7 ERLL which means 52.5 hit scan PPFLD per alpha at 800m (which is more like the 500-600m range in this game) and it had a recycle time of around 5 seconds which isn't too far off from the current LL recycle time (cooldown + duration). Hardpoints didn't reduce massive alphas either, but the one difference that did matter is the longer cooldown for alpha oriented weapons, even if they did have increased damage to match.

davoodoo, on 26 August 2016 - 03:52 AM, said:

**** me stock nova with 12 mlas, could fire 1 of her arms without much worry about heat, unlike mwo where itll put your heat at 80-90%... and could even alpha all 2 times before shutdown... pretty much like in tt...

If you are talking about MW4, then this is misleading since it took 2 ERML to be as effective as an ERML in MWO. MW4 nerfed those weapons in anticipation of them being boated.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 August 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

If you are talking about MW4, then this is misleading since it took 2 ERML to be as effective as an ERML in MWO. MW4 nerfed those weapons in anticipation of them being boated.

Yeah i agree, they arent too powerful, er lasers in general felt rather weak in mw4.

3 heat 3 dmg, 3s cd, they are weaker than they were in tt dmg and heat wise 5 heat 7 dmg
But then there were tons of stat changes which kept stock mechs pretty true to their tt counterparts and im fine with such interpretation.

System also encouraged using bigger energy weapons instead of boating mediums till youre full.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 August 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Your poll is bad, and should feel bad


Energy draw has potential, but they've ballsed it up

30 damage is too small a limit for short range weapons, and even the cMPL s significantly neutered. 40 damage previously was mediocre, with meh range, meh damage and not low heat. It now has more heat on top of that, with more range and less duration.
Small lasers of all varieties...given no benefit for short range.

Short range weapons NERFED11!?!
Honestly, implemented poorly, PGI can manage to ruin what I find enjoyable in this game:
Shooting Robots

If shooting robots stops being enjoyable, I have no reason to be here.
They've already done a handful of magical Weapons.XML edits, hopefully some less shite ones follow

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 26 August 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

less duration.

That was an error, cMPLs actually did NOT lose duration in PTS2.

[Tiantara]

Mcgral18, on 26 August 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

30 damage is too small a limit for short range weapons, and even the cMPL s significantly neutered. 40 damage previously was mediocre, with meh range, meh damage and not low heat. It now has more heat on top of that, with more range and less duration.
Small lasers of all varieties...given no benefit for short range.

- Here is one mistake.
On Live server you have Ghost heat which punish you for taking much weapon of same type. Fire 5 small laser - get more heat.
Now you can place whole mech with that short weapon and do brawling better. Even with 40 damage you get penalty based on overdepleted Energy Draw Pool. Split weapon into 2-3 group and do 30 damage every 1 seconds without any penalty for same type weapon. Or take all 40 and get penalty still lower than on GH. But not 60-70Damage from all weapon in mech just mixed to avoid GH penalty! If you fire all weapon - you got huge penalty and... maybe damage your mech.
Same again - firepower of mech it's a number of possible weapon for carry and for using in different situation. From logrange till close battle. Nearly all mech constructed in that way to have ballistic, rockets, lasers or some support equipment like ECM, heatsink, NARC, Command Console, Targeting Comp and TAG. To use them in right time and in right situation.
No one will shoot at same time from LRM, gauss, laser, small laser, flamethrower, machine guns and srm. Because in 90m LRM useless, and in 230m useless machine gun. But in right time all of that weapon useful.
Why all players think that "mech firepower" equal its alpha? It's not.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tiantara, on 26 August 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

- Here is one mistake.
On Live server you have Ghost heat which punish you for taking much weapon of same type. Fire 5 small laser - get more heat.

You should know that when you accuse McGral18 of making a mistake, it is much more likely that you have made a mistake.

There is no Ghost Heat at all on the live servers for IS Small Lasers and IS Small Pulse Lasers.

[Mcgral18]

Tiantara, on 26 August 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

- Here is one mistake.
On Live server you have Ghost heat which punish you for taking much weapon of same type.
damage every 1 seconds without any penalty for same type weapon. Or take all 40 and get penalty still lower than on GH. But not 60-70Damage from all weapon in mech just mixed to avoid GH penalty! If you fire all weapon - you got huge penalty and... maybe damage your mech.
Same again - firepower of mech it's a number of possible weapon for carry and for using in different situation. From logrange till close battle. Nearly all mech constructed in that way to have ballistic, rockets, lasers or some support equipment like ECM, heatsink, NARC, Command Console, Targeting Comp and TAG. To use them in right time and in right situation.
No one will shoot at same time from LRM, gauss, laser, small laser, flamethrower, machine guns and srm. Because in 90m LRM useless, and in 230m useless machine gun. But in right time all of that weapon useful.
Why all players think that "mech firepower" equal its alpha? It's not.

Quote

Fire 5 small laser - get more heat.

lolwut
You can fire 6 Clam Lazors without any penalties, and infinite IS lasers

Quote

Now you can place whole mech with that short weapon and do brawling better.

How, exactly?
By getting your face melted by something with longer range, which can alpha for more effective damage at greater range for less heat?
Damage values along are TERRIBLE for this reason.

Quote

Even with 40 damage you get penalty based on overdepleted Energy Draw Pool. Split weapon into 2-3 group and do 30

See above for why StareBearing is bad.

It gets you killed



You build bad robots

Gas Guzzler, on 26 August 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

That was an error, cMPLs actually did NOT lose duration in PTS2.

You're right

It did gain the 33M extended max range, though...for some reason

[Stone Wall]

First choice to 100 wins.

[The Botanist]

It's cool there is a poll and and all of these discussion threads on ED. However, I feel like we are getting it regardless of the results. The only thing we can really hope to impact at this point is the way it is implemented.

[Spleenslitta]

Please concider making another choice available in the poll.
- Community has come up with many other ideas that are better than both ED and GH.

[TheLuc]

both are same at heart, so better than the other, not at all, just different.

its just ghost heat 2.0 after all

[L3mming2]

Spleenslitta, on 27 August 2016 - 04:26 AM, said:

Please concider making another choice available in the poll.
- Community has come up with many other ideas that are better than both ED and GH.

this PTS is here to test ED, and this poll is about what ppl think of it (ED) in comparison to what we have now (GH).

the moment those ideas can be tested on PTS, i'll ad them to the poll.. ore better yet i'll make a new poll, as adding a choice to a poll that has over 200 votes already is IMO kind a silly ...