148 replies to this topic

[0rionsbane]

The tier system is rather bad especally in regards to shotgunning newer players up two tiers that would take any long time player at teh time of thier introduction a few weeks at least to go up if they had poor stats.

I would suggest they recycle the tier list and put all players back at tier 5. or for even more seperation say 10, next follow the example of other more competitive games and make a win equal to about 2 losses meaning any player not winning 30% of his matches will not progress past thier tier. and of course have that scale decrease untill at tier 1 the player has to win say 50% of thier matches to stay in the tier.

[Appogee]

I'm with the OP.

The PUG matchmaking is particularly poor and some days I fantasize about uninstalling because of it..

• It's based on the idea that a couple of good players and a bunch of bad ones can have a balanced match against a team of average players. It doesn't work that way, and stomp after stomp ensues.
  
• The tiering system is biased so that players progress up the tiers, and much too quickly. So, Tier 1 has become meaningless, and leads the matchmaker to mix ultra good players with poor ones.
  
• The matchmaker makes no allowance for those levelling Mechs vs those playing ultra optimised, mastered Mechs.

We need:

• Tiers to be reset on every patch day. Apply a bell-shaped curve to players active in the past three months.
  
• Tier progression algorithm to be modified so that going down in the tiers is weighted equally with progression up.
  
• Tier Progression algorithm to be modified so that it takes more account of personal performance and less of team performance.
  
• Matchmaker to take into account unlevelled Mechs, and class of Mech being played (as the current challenge does).

This probably won't lead to longer wait times. But even if it does, that will be better than short waits for serially awful one-sided stomps.





I could write the maths/algorithm which would implement the above principles and create better matches. It's not hard or even very complicated. However, I have zero confidence that it would be adopted by PGI, so why bother.

Edited by Appogee, 22 August 2016 - 10:08 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Stomps are not necesserily a result of bad team matching. Same two competitive teams can play two matches in a row and one will end up 8:0 while the next will end up 0:8.

I would suggest you focus on your own contribution first, if you are T1 then carry like a T1. 800+ dmg, 4+ kills on average at least. That would sway most of your matches in your favor.

[Ghogiel]

Cathy, on 22 August 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

It does have a working match maker.

It tries to balance games so that you average out on a 1-1 win loss ratio, it looks at data and then tries to put a game together on that basis, if people have been carried for 8 wins in a row and then it decides they need to lose based on its code, and they play like muppets, rather than give a close fight, hardly MM's fault.

No it doesn't. The MM doesn't use your W/L as an input to sort players in matches. The MM uses a players PSR rating, the mech they dropped with and what servers they have ticked.

[Flitzomat]

MM is a mess atm, agreed. One question I have though:

I have read quite often now, that Tiers should be reset every season or so? What is the advantage of that? Cause even if I take a 6month brake I don´t forget the minimum/maximum ranges or how to shoot Uavs and so on. So it would suck incredibly hard to come back after a brake.

[Ghogiel]

Flitzomat, on 23 August 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

MM is a mess atm, agreed. One question I have though:

I have read quite often now, that Tiers should be reset every season or so? What is the advantage of that? Cause even if I take a 6month brake I don´t forget the minimum/maximum ranges or how to shoot Uavs and so on. So it would suck incredibly hard to come back after a brake.

Since it can take months/100s of games to properly seed a player in a MM, reseting players regularly would defeat the point of a skill rating in the first place.

[Chuck Jager]

Cathy, on 22 August 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

It does have a working match maker.

It tries to balance games so that you average out on a 1-1 win loss ratio, it looks at data and then tries to put a game together on that basis, if people have been carried for 8 wins in a row and then it decides they need to lose based on its code, and they play like muppets, rather than give a close fight, hardly MM's fault.

I have yet to hear that PGI adjusts you relative mm based on wins and losses. War THunder tried this and got yelled down because the top players felt their W/L was being manipulated by factors not determined by their skill.

What I have noticed is that I think a tier has sub sections and I will be doing well for a couple of weeks and move up a bit and I think I got the Keystone cops on my team. The primary indicator is getting a game as soon as you hit go. Pretty much means the gates are open for another match and you can only hope you are the worse player with goods instead of one of the better trying to make silk purses from *****.

[Appogee]

Ghogiel, on 23 August 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

Since it can take months/100s of games to properly seed a player in a MM, reseting players regularly would defeat the point of a skill rating in the first place.

No, the skill history is what would be used to redistribute players among the skill brackets. Noone (at least, noone with a brain) is proposing to 'reset everyone to Tier 5'.

A reset and rebalance would help create better separation between the 'super good who deserve to remain in the top tier' from the 'fairly good who ground their way up to the top tier' and the 'decent players who are better than noobs but nowhere near top tier'. It would similarly create bigger brackets at the bottom for those who just aren't good and should never have progressed up the tiers.

Everyone would win through better matching of skills.

[Stone Wall]

I'm almost out of Tier 5. I will miss you potatoes

[Ghogiel]

Appogee, on 23 August 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

No, the skill history is what would be used to redistribute players among the skill brackets. Noone (at least, noone with a brain) is proposing to 'reset everyone to Tier 5'.

A reset and rebalance would help create better separation between the 'super good who deserve to remain in the top tier' from the 'fairly good who ground their way up to the top tier' and the 'decent players who are better than noobs but nowhere near top tier'. It would similarly create bigger brackets at the bottom for those who just aren't good and should never have progressed up the tiers.

Everyone would win through better matching of skills.

Not relevent.

I quoted this "I have read quite often now, that Tiers should be reset every season or so?"

[Appogee]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 August 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

Stomps are not necesserily a result of bad team matching. Same two competitive teams can play two matches in a row and one will end up 8:0 while the next will end up 0:8.

True. It's also true that this game has a snowball effect which can result in two relatively matched teams ending up with very different scores.

But, that's 'not necessarily'. And 'not necessarily' is not the same as 'regularly'.

As a player, you can certainly tell/differentiate those matches from the many matches which are stomps purely because of bad matchmaking. In 'well matched' games you can observe the majority of pilots demonstrating skill and knowledge in their positioning (grouping and flanking), personal piloting, effectiveness of loadouts, use of weapon systems, etc. In the 'bad matchmaking' matches, you can observe a predominance of pilots who derp unthinkingly into bad positions, neither regroup nor move in a way that complements the team's positioning, fire their weapons well out of range.

Ie. an experienced player can tell whether their team, or their opposition, is largely comprised of strong players, or not.

PhoenixFire55, on 23 August 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

I would suggest you focus on your own contribution first, if you are T1 then carry like a T1. 800+ dmg, 4+ kills on average at least. That would sway most of your matches in your favor.

I'm sure we all do. Sometimes we succeed against the odds, sometimes we fail, and sometimes we ourselves are carried by stronger players.

But we're all in this thing called 'Tier 1'. And the spread of skill you see in a 'Tier 1' match now is ridiculously wide... because the tiering system is weighted towards making people go up in the tiers... and there's nowhere for the guys who are genuinely at the top to go any higher.

Noone should be on a 'Tier 1' team who doesn't know not to fire Small Lasers at 600 meters. Or who alphas and shuts down over and over as their default playstyle. Nor should the matchmaker be creating a team that features a bunch of the best players in the game all on the same side, against lesser skilled people on the other side.

The matchmaker does that because we're all 'Tier 1' and supposed to be able to 'carry like a Tier 1'. Yet, not many people can carry like Proton, the top guys in KCom and ELH etc. So creating matches based on that flawed logic is dumb.

It is reasonable for all of us who aren't at Proton's level to be concerned that the 'matchmaker is broken' ... even while we do our utmost to focus, carry, and help our team's win.

Edited by Appogee, 23 August 2016 - 03:22 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

I think PGI should take all tier 1 players and put them on an island so they only play against each other, but not tell anyone that they did this and see how many still complain about being with tier 3 players.

Your tier level is not an expression of your skill, it is an expression of how much you play.

[Ninjah]

I'd be happy with tier 1 and tier 2 on an island ^^

[adamts01]

Sader325, on 22 August 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

There are 23 other strangers running around your match, they have far more influence on deciding the result of the game than you do. So stop worrying about it.

I'd consider myself a slightly above average Tier 1 pilot with a consistently + W/L almost entirely from solo que in scrub mechs. I'm sure you have a considerably better W/L than I do. Individual performance as one of the few good players on the team means everything. If I switch to a carry mech, I can almost double my W/L, that just shouldn't be the case.

PhoenixFire55, on 23 August 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

I would suggest you focus on your own contribution first, if you are T1 then carry like a T1. 800+ dmg, 4+ kills on average at least. That would sway most of your matches in your favor.

Part of his problem, and mine, is a single player shouldn't have to carry 11 others in a team game, it just shouldn't be that way.

Flitzomat, on 23 August 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

I have read quite often now, that Tiers should be reset every season or so? What is the advantage of that? Cause even if I take a 6month brake I don´t forget the minimum/maximum ranges or how to shoot Uavs and so on. So it would suck incredibly hard to come back after a brake.

The first month that tiers were introduced, games were pretty good, as good players absolutely move up faster than bads. But now, bads have ground that XP bar, and are filthying top tier matches with LRM Kodiaks. Best solution is to make a PSR that doesn't trend upwards, and limits the amount of players in each tier (You have to knock someone down to move up). In the meantime, resetting everything every 3 months would help.

[PhoenixFire55]

adamts01, on 23 August 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Part of his problem, and mine, is a single player shouldn't have to carry 11 others in a team game, it just shouldn't be that way.

What it should be then if there are 2 skilled players and 22 potatoes searching for a match? No match at all?

[Appogee]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 August 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

What it should be then if there are 2 skilled players and 22 potatoes searching for a match? No match at all?

That's a straw man around an edge case. It doesn't address the regularity of poor matchmaking that can be observed daily. And, if the player numbers are to be believed, then it would almost never be the case.

But anyway, let's play 'what if your straw man was real'. At the very least, the 2 most skilled players should be on opposing teams. And the rest of the 22 players distributed evenly based on skill across the two teams. Just like we did at school when picking lunchtime football teams.

But anyway, I take it from the ongoing arguments that you make, you're delighted with the quality of matchmaking at the moment. That's great. I'm glad to know the current system is working well for you.

Edited by Appogee, 23 August 2016 - 03:30 AM.

[H I A S]

PhoenixFire55, on 23 August 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

What it should be then if there are 2 skilled players and 22 potatoes searching for a match? No match at all?

go to lobby?

[The Lost Boy]

To the OP.

Go.
Away.
D-bag.

Signed,
Everyone.

Edited by Lemming of the BDA, 23 August 2016 - 03:32 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

arivio, on 23 August 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

go to lobby?

Sure, but tell it to the guy ^^ who laucnhes into solo queue and says he doesn't have to carry.

[PhoenixFire55]

Appogee, on 23 August 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

That's a straw man around an edge case. It doesn't address the regularity of poor matchmaking that can be observed daily. And, if the player numbers are to be believed, then it would almost never be the case.

What I like about you guys is that when its convenient for you the population is too low for MM, but then two hours and six threads later the population suddenly becomes sufficient.

Appogee, on 23 August 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

But anyway, let's play 'what if your straw man was real'. At the very least, the 2 most skilled players should be on opposing teams. And the rest of the 22 players distributed evenly based on skill across the two teams. Just like we did at school when picking lunchtime football teams.

Indeed ... and then each skilled player will have to single-handedly carry his team.

Appogee, on 23 August 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

But anyway, I take it from the ongoing arguments that you make, you're delighted with the quality of matchmaking at the moment. That's great. I'm glad to know the current system is working well for you.

Delusional much? ... Scroll back a few pages in general discussion and look through MM-related threads. Better yet find MM-related threads from back when PGI announced it.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 23 August 2016 - 03:38 AM.