303 replies to this topic

[Willothius]

And yes, it's not perfect: I too would prefer the introduction of heatscale mechanics (easily implemented, just decrease max speed, turn speed, etc with higher heat!) and the introduction of weapon convergence, both would make all this heat stuff obsolete. But if we can't have those, this is at least a step forward.

[Raven Glock]

Why don't we take ghost heat
And push it somewhere else

[MrMasakari]

Willothius, on 24 August 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

And yes, it's not perfect: I too would prefer the introduction of heatscale mechanics (easily implemented, just decrease max speed, turn speed, etc with higher heat!) and the introduction of weapon convergence, both would make all this heat stuff obsolete. But if we can't have those, this is at least a step forward.

There are so many solutions, and I have believed in this for a while. Engine critical on your mech increase with your heat and your max speed is reduced above 60% heat by a multiplier based on your engine. Therefore allowing people who want to play their derp builds to do so, with a huge risk factor of 'oh by the way, your engine is twice as likely to be critted'.

Tossing this aside, the EDS has to be better than ghost heat, right?

Edited by Artaire, 24 August 2016 - 04:17 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Willothius, on 24 August 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

And yes, it's not perfect: I too would prefer the introduction of heatscale mechanics (easily implemented, just decrease max speed, turn speed, etc with higher heat!) and the introduction of weapon convergence, both would make all this heat stuff obsolete. But if we can't have those, this is at least a step forward.

Alpha strikes will be the preferred fighting style a long as you are able to run away and hide at full speed after the alpha strike.

I tried using 2xLPL 6xERML 25 DHS Timberwolf lately. 68 alpha for 56 heat. Not very efficient. Because of C-DHS capacity nerf it puts you at about 71% heat. But after the alpha,you just step into cover and wait 11.5 seconds to cool down.
It's much better than to stand 11.5 seconds in the open firing autocannons.

700 damage with that build in the first match. That means I had to leave cover and face the enemies only 11 times during the whole match. ERML beam duration is 1.15 so I could do all that damage within 13 seconds total. 13 seconds of being exposed throughout the match. That's less face time than a LRM boat :-)

My point is: in order to discourage alpha strikes you can either generate extra heat - which is what ghost heat and energy drain try to accomplish.

Another option would be to introduce heat effects: your mech slowing down, acceleration and turning penalty, loosing lock, flickering hud and so on.
The problem is, that actually would probably decrease TTK since slow targets are easier to kill than moving ones (that's mostly due to the netcode). Also, it would especially punish lighter and faster mechs more than the likes of Direwhale or King Crab.

Edited by Kmieciu, 24 August 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

InnerSphereNews, on 23 August 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

...

Override Damage

• Damage received from Override no longer applies to the Head.


...

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lizardman from Hollywood]

Lol its the meta train chasing it's tai . With the new changes to the ts I saw single/dual guass and 2/3 ppcs being the new meta. Shoot guass wait 1 sec shoot ppcs hide for guass cd rinse repeat. Apparently the devs saw it too. Have you ever stopped to think that if you meta head comp spec players would stop chasing that min/max build that maybe the dust would settle and we could get balanc . But that will never happen since there is always gonna be ppl that have to run the specs to the max so they can post big numbers to stroke that epeen

[DrxAbstract]

Sephrus Shanadar, on 24 August 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

Lol its the meta train chasing it's tai . With the new changes to the ts I saw single/dual guass and 2/3 ppcs being the new meta. Shoot guass wait 1 sec shoot ppcs hide for guass cd rinse repeat. Apparently the devs saw it too. Have you ever stopped to think that if you meta head comp spec players would stop chasing that min/max build that maybe the dust would settle and we could get balanc . But that will never happen since there is always gonna be ppl that have to run the specs to the max so they can post big numbers to stroke that epeen

Someone is certainly jaded... There's some deep-seated emotional scarring with this one.

[MrMasakari]

Sephrus Shanadar, on 24 August 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

Lol its the meta train chasing it's tai . With the new changes to the ts I saw single/dual guass and 2/3 ppcs being the new meta. Shoot guass wait 1 sec shoot ppcs hide for guass cd rinse repeat. Apparently the devs saw it too. Have you ever stopped to think that if you meta head comp spec players would stop chasing that min/max build that maybe the dust would settle and we could get balanc . But that will never happen since there is always gonna be ppl that have to run the specs to the max so they can post big numbers to stroke that epeen

I don't play for meta or to be competitive, just because I love my mechs. But this is a competitive game, and people are always going to min max everything and exploit any way of doing so. It is just part of online gaming and as much as I hate metagaming, it kinda has to be expected. It's up to the devs to determine how people can min max, and how effective boating certain things are, and for the meta too.

Alpha meta will always be strong because it allows you to deal as much damage as possible in a short period of time, negating damage you would otherwise take by sitting out in the open with your mech. Factoring in long range exacerbates this even more so.

People will never be happy with one thing or another, and its a sad but true fact, but if this EDS replaces ghost heat, I will be happy. Metas can be destroyed just by tweaking some numbers, and regardless of whether people are for or against certain things, I personally would not want this, anyone can just change some numbers and yell balanced, but I think every game play style should be viable. Some setups will always outperform other setups in the hands of skilled players, but you can't penalise everyone just because of that.

Edit: The concept of EDS vs Ghost heat, not in its current state.

Edited by Artaire, 24 August 2016 - 05:15 AM.

[Colonel ONeill]

AnTi90d, on 23 August 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

You're now making ED exponentially more complicated than Ghost Heat ever was.

At this point, just call ED a failure and stick with Ghost Heat..

..except maybe keep some of the cooldown nerfs. That is an easy way to increase TTK.

upping the armor woul increase TTK as well.

Ghost Heat is bad, but I like it as an option to disable boating. This Ghostheat 2.0/Energy Draw thing tho is a lot more complicated. Would have been an option back in beta, but now? Too late for my taste.

[PyckenZot]

Three initial thoughts:

• Quite fond of the larger penalty you're implementing;
  
• The spread image on SRMs. I assume that is at max range?
  
• What were you smoking when you decided on the gauss changes? I want some!

Great post! Very informative. I'm really looking forward to getting this tuned!

Edited by PyckenZot, 24 August 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[PyckenZot]

Artaire, on 24 August 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

Alpha meta will always be strong because it allows you to deal as much damage as possible in a short period of time, negating damage you would otherwise take by sitting out in the open with your mech. Factoring in long range exacerbates this even more so.

Thing is, alpha strikes are a part of battletech and nothing wrong with them. But they should hurt you for doing one.

Colonel ONeill, on 24 August 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Ghost Heat is bad, but I like it as an option to disable boating. This Ghostheat 2.0/Energy Draw thing tho is a lot more complicated. Would have been an option back in beta, but now? Too late for my taste.

Continuing on the hurting, Ghostheat did it via "formula magica" hence the term ghost (as you know of course ) The new system is an elegant, simple and straightforward lineair formula. Vastly preferential to Ghostheat and is as such not a "Ghostheat 2.0"

I'm a fan!

Now just to get the stuff balanced. Loved/feared my dual PPC dual guass KGC on the PTS v1.0

Edited by PyckenZot, 24 August 2016 - 05:38 AM.

[627]

I have the feeling that this energy draw system could easily be called "SecondHeat" - The first iteration gave some hints but with the update it becomes even clearer.

It is more or less the 30 Heat bar from TT but with a fixed cooling rate and custom heat penalties. And all is about less Alpha, more DPS, the same idea the "give us TT heat system"-crowd shouted over the years.

And without any extra ghost heat it is really just that so I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to just cap heat capacity to 30 max and try it for some days. Sure, Gauss needs it charge back for balance but the rest?

This system we have on the PTS now comes really close to this idea imo.

[Kmieciu]

Colonel ONeill, on 24 August 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Energy Draw thing tho is a lot more complicated.

If the original ghost heat is less complicated than please explain why 4xIS ERPPC produces 103.4 heat? Only the fricking Rain Man could calculate that on the fly. Because normal humans can't solve logarythmic equasions in their mind.

With energy draw 4xIS ERPPC produces 4*15 + (4*12-30) = 78 heat. That's elementary school mathematics.

Edited by Kmieciu, 24 August 2016 - 05:41 AM.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

I was getting fast matches on PTS (~3-4 minutes, way better than last one) during the last phase, but right now I've been queued for over 15 minutes, and have not gotten ANY matches.

[X T R E M E]

Kmieciu, on 24 August 2016 - 03:54 AM, said:

I wholeheartedly agree. There even is a sound effect when you go over the limit.
Host heat is very obscure to a new player. He is not informed about the 0.5s timer.

Hell, even the PGI`s lead designer did not acknowledge that 2xAC2 could produce exponential ghost heat:

You know how they fixed it?
They didn't.
They just disabled ghost heat on AC2s.

They have not commitment, They will only get money, by new player... !

Edited by XtremeAlex, 24 August 2016 - 06:10 AM.

[MovinTarget]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

Someone is certainly jaded... There's some deep-seated emotional scarring with this one.

I sense his emotions may not be the only thing scarred...

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Sephrus Shanadar, on 24 August 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

Lol its the meta train chasing it's tai . With the new changes to the ts I saw single/dual guass and 2/3 ppcs being the new meta. Shoot guass wait 1 sec shoot ppcs hide for guass cd rinse repeat. Apparently the devs saw it too. Have you ever stopped to think that if you meta head comp spec players would stop chasing that min/max build that maybe the dust would settle and we could get balanc . But that will never happen since there is always gonna be ppl that have to run the specs to the max so they can post big numbers to stroke that epeen

I mean while it's completely irrational to expect this not to happen in a video game, I do at least wholeheartedly agree with your frustration on an emotional level.

[Uncle Totty]

Kmieciu, on 24 August 2016 - 05:39 AM, said:

If the original ghost heat is less complicated than please explain why 4xIS ERPPC produces 103.4 heat? Only the fricking Rain Man could calculate that on the fly. Because normal humans can't solve logarythmic equasions in their mind.

With energy draw 4xIS ERPPC produces 4*15 + (4*12-30) = 78 heat. That's elementary school mathematics.

Also unlike ghost heat, with the ED bar, I can SEE the limits that are in place and when I am about to break them.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

If they fix the cooldown on cERPPCs I'll be willing to give the rest of ED a chance, but I can only imagine it's also shafting the non-boating use of other weapons as well. I don't play with AC5's for instance, but they look like they've had the mess beatin' out of them by this balance change.

Ultimately I think that if boating is causing a weapon to be too powerful in the ED system it needs to have its boating potential directly nerfed through some kind of an energy draw value increase. The weapon's other values (namely it's fire rate) should not be changed to balance boats. That ruins the weapon for people who don't boat it.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 06:54 AM.

[Rushmoar]

This just sounds stupid. Sorry PGI it just does. Why won't you just drop the heat cap from 60 to 50 and go from there. All this does is jet you to 60 faster any ways. Now you just arbitrary add random values to weapons when you had a simple plan of 5 damage laser uses 5 energy. Chain fire Online here I come.