111 replies to this topic

[BadgerBeard]

The6thMessenger, on 02 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

What if LRM users which is not locked, have their location briefly target table via Proxy? Other LRMs can lock back to the LRM user and rain their own LRMs back.

But the catch is that it is localized on the position they fired the LRM from, so the LRM-firing mech can move away while enemies can still fire on their last position, as well as their info is not available -- type of mech, their vulnerabilities etc. That a bonafide legit lock does -- all this proxy-target does is allow LRMs to lock and fire.

Another feature i think is that Machine-Guns can act as pseudo-AMS that one can shoot at a missile cluster and take them down.

Full interest of disclosure, personally, i am sick and tired of LRMs, so i am quite biased. I am not a Balancing Guru though, i don't insist that these ideas would work. But i'm just throwing things to the table.

Just a guess, but are you an Armoured Warfare artillery player by any chance?

Interesting idea though. Possible that a decent command computer type of thing (looking at the Cyclops here) could analyse the incoming missiles and back-track to a probable firng location, then display this location to the team in a manner similar to a seismic ping on the map. Whether or not this could then be bombarded by "dumbfired" LRM's would make for an interesting discussion. The spread of such a bombardment would needs be quite large though. But it would certainly let your lights know exactly where to go hunting for a free kill.

I have no idea if missiles can effectively be engaged by non-AMS weapons, but I do like the idea of letting machine guns have a try as long as they are not anywhere near as effective as AMS which is a dedicated defense system after all.

Anything like this would of course require that LRM's get buffed first to actually have a reason to even consider them.

[LordNothing]

lerms are the most nerfbatted weapon out there. if they are still killing you regularly learn some evasion tactics, find some cover, and failing that equip an ams (i seldom have to go that far). the only lerm boats that are even close to useful are the 5x5 medium skirmishers, and thats because they are fighting close and getting their own locks and are actually seeing what their missiles are doing.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 02 September 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

lerms are the most nerfbatted weapon out there. if they are still killing you regularly learn some evasion tactics, find some cover, and failing that equip an ams (i seldom have to go that far). the only lerm boats that are even close to useful are the 5x5 medium skirmishers, and thats because they are fighting close and getting their own locks and are actually seeing what their missiles are doing.

I agree. In fact as i have 250 hours of gameplay, and somewhat improved my Heavy, TBR-A sniper. I barely run into the LRM problems anymore.

Unfortunately, assaults just don't have that as an option often. Positioning is key for an Assault, along with lots of layers of defense like AMS and ECP, that seems to be so much specialization.

Perhaps, what if LRMs no longer cockpit shake assaults? Or what about just less cockpit shake?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 September 2016 - 03:19 AM.

[Yellonet]

I remember my first LRM's OP thread... oh how young and foolish I was back then.

[crashlogic]

So I am largely and LRMboat player, and whines about LRMS being OP make me smile, because it means some of us LRM boaters are doing our jobs. But the heart of what's been said about LRMs in the forum is true: if you die to lrms its your own fault. So lets put this is perspective and repeat: IF YOU ARE KILLED BY LRMS IT IS YOUR OWN DAMNED FAULT. Others have adequately expressed all the ways in which lrms can be neutralize by a cagey player. However the number one cause of LRM death is being greedy, impatient and overly aggressive. As lrm boat driver, I'm a hunter. I am looking for mechs in places where they can't run, or more likely where they WON'T run. I like mechs engaged with my team-mates I see a red and blue dot close together on the mini-map and its an opportunity. I look for snipers in their favortite positions-many times you can play peek and poke from behind cover that protects you from direct fire, but not from indirect lrms. A sniper that stays in that position and dies then gets on the forums and says lrms are op.
You are an assault mech moving in the open under 70 KPH. I will take at 30-50% of your armour before you get into the fight and my teammates wreck you, unless you are on polar in which case I will take my solo kill MDD. Or you are any other mech moving across open ground (or the rolling snowdrifts in the center of Polar) heedless of cover, in which case no amount of AMS,ECM or Radar Derp can help you. There are many other ways to make mistakes that get your LRM killed, but pretty much all of them come down to it being your fault.
Thank you for playing and come again.
Oh yeah, my chief skill as an lrm driver: figuring out when you done ****** up.

Edited by crashlogic, 02 September 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[Iron Heel]

GUYS!
GUYS!
Its dead, for the love of god, put the whip down.

Edit:
For the non English 1st language people, we have a saying about beating a dead horse..

Edited by Iron Heel, 02 September 2016 - 04:24 AM.

[crashlogic]

LordNothing, on 02 September 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

lerms are the most nerfbatted weapon out there. if they are still killing you regularly learn some evasion tactics, find some cover, and failing that equip an ams (i seldom have to go that far). the only lerm boats that are even close to useful are the 5x5 medium skirmishers, and thats because they are fighting close and getting their own locks and are actually seeing what their missiles are doing.

Actually maddogs are very good for this, so are archers with lots of engine,

[Galenit]

Untile there are at least 6 ams in each team, lrms are still to weak.

[Dingo Battler]

crashlogic, on 02 September 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

IF YOU ARE KILLED BY LRMS IT IS YOUR OWN DAMNED FAULT.

False. This used to be perfectly true in the old maps with plenty of cover, old forest colony, mordor, crimson, old frozen city, old forest colony

However, PGI's recent slew of maps are 5 minute walk-fests with little to no cover (with the exception of forest colony), in a thinly disguised attempt to lengthen TTK and appease nubs shooting with their noob tubes. Sure, if you're a light of medium in polar, you can easily break LOS. However, what if you're a brawling atlas, or just a regular assault, walking along? There is no single path with 100% cover all the time, and UAV will easily pwn you. In fact, its far more common to not be in cover, than to be in one, especially for hulking assaults.

LRMs should fire like SRMs in direct fire mode, except with 0 spread (leading and distance will take care of that), and with quadruple spread, and half the speed in indirect fire mode.

Also, to counter anymore git gud arguments, only bother replying if you're higher than me on the leaderboard, with your tier clearly displayed, if not, turn around and walk away. Rank 35222 on leaderboard season 2, so I don't think you have any right telling people its their fault. Same applies to all users here. If anyone is using the rubbish git gud argument, search his leaderboard position and smash him.

Edited by KBurn85, 02 September 2016 - 04:52 AM.

[Paigan]

Centurion72, on 01 September 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Oh my god, you're so good players, sorry to have bothered you.
I'll go hide myself in the dark.

And from there i'll watch you all be killed by lrms rain as i have always seen happen in the last month and a half.
See you.

Just for once in my life, I want to see somebody write "Oh, I see your point. I didn't think of that. You are right. Thank you."
(I do that, flame me for being arrogant, but I do it. Apart from me, never seen it).


Personally, I see the LRM discussion with some amusement:

Some say they are too good because they got lurmed to death in the open and don't think about what they could do to counter it (cover!).

Some say they are too weak because cover/ECM/dps/spread/whatever.

I say: They are perfectly fine as a TACTICAL weapon.
You guys, OP-whiners and too-weak-whiners, are so proud of playing a tactical game, right?
Then please try to understand the concept of a tactical weapon.

LRMs cover the open. If you have LRMs, you block the open field for the enemy.
If you don't have LRMS, the enemy can happily cross the field without the fear of being punished for it.

LRMs are good to punish tactical mistakes. They are good as a suppression weapon (even 1 LRM-5 can be well worth it, simply because of the psychological effect of "INCOMING MISSILE!").
LRMs are NOT a good weapon for brawling or peaking or front-loaded single-component piercing damage.

Stop whining about the first being OP and stop whining about the second being to weak because both are naive and wrong.
Understand the tactical nature of the weapon beyond mindless "storm forward and fire".

Or are all you whiners really so simple that you can't do imagine else?


tl;dr:
read the post

Edited by Paigan, 02 September 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

Lrms are absolutely lethal in QP.

Double the heat.

Tripple the heat even. Trust me when I say it wouldnt have the effect you would hope for.

Why?

Because puggers completly ignore uavs and/or run around blindly over open terrain without cover or fail to realize theres one or more spotters on the flanks or behind them, feeding their lrm mechs with intel throughout the entire game.

Lrms punish the way 95 + % of puggers in QP play.

Any half good team will annihilate an lrm heavy team. Completly stopm them into the ground. Cause they shoot uavs down instantly. Good teams have dedicated anti uav mechs that hover at around 300 - 600 meters of the team. They scout and guard certain appraoch routes and - most importantly - shoot down any and all uavs right above the teams heads. uavs they cannot see that quickly because they are right above them.

That alone will significantly reduce lrms effectiveness.

Puggers never do that though.

Most puggers stoically ignore uavs in all every single game. They get completly owned by lrms as a result.

Lrms are a very situational weapon that can be countered in a multitude of ways or outright avoided without much effort.

Only the most careless game style will turn them into such a big threat.

Lrms are more than fine.

It is the players that simply do not know how to avoid lrms by constantly looking for uavs and spotters and use terrain to their advantage.

Its not lrms.

Not at all hehe. If lrms kill a player/team than that palyer/team simply isnt good but very bad instead.

learn to play.

[Dingo Battler]

Paigan, on 02 September 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

Just for once in my life, I want to see somebody write "Oh, I see your point. I didn't think of that. You are right. Thank you."
(I do that, flame me for being arrogant, but I do it. Apart from me, never seen it).

Your point used to be right, but all the new expansive walkfests that PGI has pumped out has little to no cover, with the notable exception of forest.

Using lurms used to be an exercise in tactics, making sure your target is not hiding, your missiles are hitting, you can get lock behind an ECM shield, etc.

Now, they've nerfed the ECM shield and have started removing any sort of cover in the newer maps.

Now its half half. Half the time you're right, the other half, you get a bad/nub, voting on polar, dropping in a lurm atlas, and lurming people to death, without even needing to aim.

I'll admit, I'm wrong, I see your point WITH REGARDS TO THE OLD MAPS. Are you willing to meet me half way for the new ones, and admit you're wrong, and will be more wrong in the future as PGI panders to the bads and nubs?

[BigBenn]

I'm not seeing a "LRM-fest". Once in awhile there will be a number of mechs with LRM's mounted, and even fewer chances that there will be a number of mechs with massed missles such as a Mad Dog, Archer, or Catapult.

I'm still seeing laser-fests though.

If you want to talk "balance", you can't discuss it without bringing up PGI's effort (or lack of) to encourage "combined arms" mech loadouts. When a mech can take 4 LPL and keep firing with mechs armed with a LPL, AC10, LRM10, and 2 ML, there should be issues.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 01 September 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

is.
5 - Get close. IS LRMs do 0 damage inside 180m, and cLRMs do less damage the closer you are. If you see an LRM boat, walk up to him and get a free kill.

I like to put one LRM15 on my AS7-S that's set up for solo queue and step off to the side of the main group. That way people see a broken stream of am LRM15 and think I'm an LRM boat Atlas. Then when that one light or medium comes for an easy kill I can surprise him with an AC20 and SRM6.

[adamts01]

Monkey Lover, on 01 September 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

They need to buff Los damage and try to turn it into more of a skill based weapon. Right now no one should bring it into battle because it's so bad.

I hate this position more than the LRMs are OP position. They'll never compete with direct fire weapons, as they need to lock on, have travel time, and spread damage. If they can't compete with the direct fire crowd, then they need to do a better job at indirect fire. My proposal is quadrupling the damage, tightening the spread to match the LRM5, and speeding them up, BUT..... only give 40 missiles a ton. This way they won't be spammed, it'll be worth soaking up some direct fire hits to get your own lock and manage a hit, and it encourages spotter/shooter teamwork, as the shooter has to be sure the spotter has picked a good target so those valuable few missiles aren't lost to a hill.

[Astrocanis]

I have been playing a Kitfox lately - 3xAMS and ECM - and am noticing how few players actually carry their own AMS. In fact, I'm amazed at how many ECM capable mechs don't have ECM, they just have Radar Dep. But the biggest culprit of all is exposure. Drivers that won't take cover, literally blindered by their targets, die, then blame either LRMs or me because I didn't run all the way across the map (getting my arse blown off) to give them support when they would do nothing to assist themselves. Because that kill shot was all that mattered.

On the other hand, I <very> occasionally get thanked for providing an umbrella. More often than not, at the beginning of the match, the bozo that won't find cover complains that I've gimped the firepower of the team (in a KITFOX!) and then, at the end complains I didn't do enough to bolster his personal score.

Le sigh.

Edited by Astrocanis, 02 September 2016 - 05:34 AM.

[Astrocanis]

KBurn85, on 02 September 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

Your point used to be right, but all the new expansive walkfests that PGI has pumped out has little to no cover, with the notable exception of forest.

Using lurms used to be an exercise in tactics, making sure your target is not hiding, your missiles are hitting, you can get lock behind an ECM shield, etc.

Now, they've nerfed the ECM shield and have started removing any sort of cover in the newer maps.

Now its half half. Half the time you're right, the other half, you get a bad/nub, voting on polar, dropping in a lurm atlas, and lurming people to death, without even needing to aim.

I'll admit, I'm wrong, I see your point WITH REGARDS TO THE OLD MAPS. Are you willing to meet me half way for the new ones, and admit you're wrong, and will be more wrong in the future as PGI panders to the bads and nubs?

He might, but I won't. I have yet to be killed by LRMs on Polar. In fact, I've been killed by LRMs about 2 times so far this year. And I don't usually vote for either maps or modes any more. I just take what I'm given.

Maps are maps. Tactics are tactics. If you choose to emphasize quick games over tactical games, LRMs will kill you. If you don't, they won't. If you choose the quick game, my KTO-18(C) thanks you.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I love how OP left after page one and we're 5 pages deep still piling it on.

[Myantra]

KBurn85, on 02 September 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

Now its half half. Half the time you're right, the other half, you get a bad/nub, voting on polar, dropping in a lurm atlas, and lurming people to death, without even needing to aim.

I'll admit, I'm wrong, I see your point WITH REGARDS TO THE OLD MAPS. Are you willing to meet me half way for the new ones, and admit you're wrong, and will be more wrong in the future as PGI panders to the bads and nubs?

I see plenty of lurmageddon in QP. The only time I see it being effective is when the team being lurmageddon'd is not paying attention to UAV's, not making use of the one or two ECM-equipped Mechs on the team, or just trying to continue playing peek-a-boo while being rained upon.

If I find myself on a team that is communicating in QP, I smile when I see a ton of LRM's coming from several Mechs on the enemy team. They have told my team where they are, and what much of their loadout is. If the team is not communicating, and therefore will not push against an LRM-heavy enemy, I cringe since I know the round is largely lost as I see them die one at a time.

I was in two matches on Polar last night that were lost because of LRM's. One was lost because the team I was on wanted to LRM everyone to death. The enemy deathballed, and only a few of us had any weapons of note that were not LRM's. The other was lost since the team refused to push, because they were scared of all the LRM's. So they died slowly from the combination of LRM's and peek-a-boo.

There are maps that might not have as much cover as others, but there are none where your only choice is to just accept lurmageddon. I make sure radar deprivation is equipped on any Mech I take into QP, and LRM spam has not been a bother to me for a while. They are not that difficult to avoid, even on Polar. That said, if I had one piece of advice to give, it would be: do not spend your GXP on any module before you have unlocked radar deprivation.

[TWIAFU]

Centurion72, on 01 September 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

Bye

Yep, bye.