241 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

DrxAbstract, on 05 September 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

Sigh... I'm really not in the mood to hunt down every piece of forum post that sinks your battleship. Suffice to say if you think "If you have X tonnage, want X range, etc." is more a deciding factor than weapon cooldown and beam duration then dont be shocked when people load up IS LPLs and Clan LPLs, because "30 damage at 775 Optimal Range for 12 tons" isnt nearly as "huge" in practice as it is on paper.

I'm not shocked when people do that, because this game is played best as a mid-range combat game.

And then you'll see comp matches where to the average player it looks like bizarro world where everyone is using things like Gauss + PPCs and ERLLAS/CERLLAS builds - with barely a LPL or CLPL in sight.


Now, I'm here to have a conversation and make a good proposal.


So don't throw your hands up just yet, toss out some realistic numbers and let's have a discussion.

I'm hesitant to cut the CLPL range down too far, because then it leaves a significant gap in a functional weapon system in that range bracket - that being said I could see it coming down to 500m, with some other buffs added in to compensate a touch.

I've gotten some similar feedback, so I'm going to make some numbers tweaks. Looking forward to more feedback.


Made some edits, relevant thread is here: http://mwomercs.com/...lance-proposal/

Edited by Ultimax, 05 September 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Ironically Ironclad Irony]

As long as people are at odds about logical balance vs TT balance, this conversation will rage on...

Ok, i will bite, lets suppose we drop clpl range by 100m, what tweaks would you propose to balance them? It still gets better range than any IS beam save ERLL. It still does higher damage than IS LL/ERLL so what tweak does it need when its already superior?

[Appogee]

ED is a whole new system, bolted on the front of the old system, Ghost Heat, to try to address the old system's shortcomings .

Instead of bolting on a new system, and leaving two systems in place, just replace the old system with something more effective.

Two options:

1. Between heat management, refire rates and ranges, there should be more than enough variables to achieve a balance.

2. Just remove Ghost Heat altogether. Let ED determine whether you can fire your weapons or not. (You're out of energy, you can't fire until your energy bar rebuilds again.)

Either of these options is simpler, easier to explain and understand, and requires less processing power as well.

Edited by Appogee, 05 September 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Ironically Ironclad Irony]

Ghost is gone, now its ED heat... though i see what you are saying and pehaps a mix of the 2 options would make sense for different systems.

Overdraw on energy prevents energy weapons from firing, but mechanical weapons get a longer cd... somehow in my head these are intrinsically different but i am not sure if they would be in actuality.

Edited by Ironically Ironclad Irony, 05 September 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[impar]

Gentleman Reaper, on 05 September 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

Put draw and heat charts in the weapon groups part of mechbay, BAM!, done. People get a UI element, they can set more efficient groups, infinitely better than with both GH and even without.

Oh! The same way the developers explained GH, right? In a easy to understand manner and easy to find the relevant information...
So, on top of cooldown and heat we now get another opaque mechanic.


Remove GH\ED, reduce heat capacity and increase cooldown times, far easier to implement and to understand. Dont try to re-invent the wheel.

[Ironically Ironclad Irony]

To be fair, what, what he was suggesting was more graphical that a warn "Firing more than X of weapon Y will generate additional heat."

Really all they need to do is in the weapons group screen spell out how much heat/energy each group uses/generates and point out overages

[Gentleman Reaper]

impar, on 05 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Oh! The same way the developers explained GH, right? In a easy to understand manner and easy to find the relevant information...
So, on top of cooldown and heat we now get another opaque mechanic.


Remove GH\ED, reduce heat capacity and increase cooldown times, far easier to implement and to understand. Dont try to re-invent the wheel.

And then ballistic weapons becoming woefully overpowered because of their low heat. I made a thread explaining why combining a lower heat cap and ED is the most balanced system you can have.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Gentleman Reaper, on 05 September 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

And then ballistic weapons becoming woefully overpowered because of their low heat. I made a thread explaining why combining a lower heat cap and ED is the most balanced system you can have.

So I am about 90 % convinced that a lower heat cap might be the keystone.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 05 September 2016 - 02:30 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 05 September 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

The IS faction has numerous weapons that are inherently better than their clan counterparts. Clans have a select few weapons that are inherently better, ie the cERPPC, small lasers, debatably medium lasers, and the Gauss rifle just for weight, but in exchange most of their stuff is a ton or so lighter.

You can either balance the weapons, or you can balance using quirks.
Balancing using quirks is a strange thing. We now have the IS ERPPC that is inferior to Clan ERPPC, but on a select few chassis (BJ-3, VND-1R, CDA-3C, AWS-8Q and 9M), thanks to +50% quirks it is clearly superior to what the clans have.
Therefore you can use C-ERPPC on any clan mech and get good results, but you cannot use IS PPC on any mech you like with same efficiency. It certainly adds flavor to some mechs but is a nightmare to balance.

[impar]

Gentleman Reaper, on 05 September 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

And then ballistic weapons becoming woefully overpowered because of their low heat. I made a thread explaining why combining a lower heat cap and ED is the most balanced system you can have.

Ballistics would be balanced via the cooldown and, if need be, by increasing its overall weight by reducing ammo per ton. Lets not forget ballistics already weight more.

The variables needed to balance the weapons already exist, there is no need to re-invent the wheel by adding another opaque system (GH\ED).

Again:
Try explaining ED to a new player. You cant.
And you wonder why the player base is stagnant\diminishing...

Edited by impar, 06 September 2016 - 01:06 AM.

[L3mming2]

impar, on 06 September 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

Ballistics would be balanced via the cooldown and, if need be, by increasing its overall weight by reducing ammo per ton. Lets not forget ballistics already weight more.

The variables needed to balance the weapons already exist, there is no need to re-invent the wheel by adding another opaque system (GH\ED).

Again:
Try explaining ED to a new player. You cant.
And you wonder why the player base is stagnant\diminishing...

how about, if the powerdraw stat in the bottom right of your screen in the mech lab is higer then 30 you will resieve a heat penalty of 1 for every point you are over 30 when you alpha. the powerdraw bar refils in game at a rate of 20/s.

done explaining in 6 s ....

Edited by L3mming2, 06 September 2016 - 01:33 AM.

[impar]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

how about, if the powerdraw stat in the bottom right of your screen in the mech lab is higer then 30 you will resieve a heat penalty of 1 for every point you are over 30 when you alpha. the powerdraw bar refils in game at a rate of 20/s.

Hypothetical player:
So, I have several LRM, LL and SPL equiped and I exceed 30 "powerdraw stat in the bottom right of my screen in the mech lab", however I dont fire my LRMs when I fire SPS, and vice-versa. Whats my power draw? And if I fire my LRM and LL together? Or when I fire my LL and SPL at the same time?

PS:

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

done explaining in 6 s ....

7 seconds, 8 seconds, ...

Edited by impar, 06 September 2016 - 01:59 AM.

[L3mming2]

impar, on 06 September 2016 - 01:57 AM, said:

Hypothetical player:
So, I have several LRM, LL and SPL equiped and I exceed 30 "powerdraw stat in the bottom right of my screen in the mech lab", however I dont fire my LRMs when I fire SPS, and vice-versa. Whats my power draw? And if I fire my LRM and LL together? Or when I fire my LL and SPL at the same time?

PS:

7 seconds, 8 seconds, ...

you can exactly see how much powerdraw a spesiffic set of weapons have by equiping just them in the mech lab and looking at the power draw stat... but if the player is a bit smart he would have figured that out on its own whit the explenation i posted before..

i have played for over 2 years now, and i still go to smurfy to look up the penaltys for ghost heat for diferent weapon groops..

[BLOOD WOLF]

impar, on 06 September 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

Again:
Try explaining ED to a new player. You cant.
And you wonder why the player base is stagnant\diminishing...

umm?? is he serious?

total amount of energy=weapons use energy=going over available pool of energy results in a penalty.

I guess I can

[impar]

L3mming2, on 06 September 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

i have played for over 2 years now, and i still go to smurfy to look up the penaltys for ghost heat for diferent weapon groops..

I go to Smurfys for everything. The info available in-game is poorly showed. So was the GH mechanic and so will be the ED mechanic. And, am sad Snafets no longer gets updated, best place to check the quirks.

BLOOD WOLF, on 06 September 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

total amount of energy=weapons use energy=going over available pool of energy results in a penalty.

That on top of weight, heat, cooldown, duration, range, minimum range, etc.

Heck, just for some fun, your explanation with a twist:
>>> total amount of HEAT=weapons use HEAT=going over available pool of HEAT results in a penalty. <<<
See? No need to add a new variable. Lower heat guns (GR) get more cooldown. Balance with the available variables.
ED is just a re-invention of the wheel. To be changed in couple of years when players find ways to go around it.

Edited by impar, 06 September 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Kmieciu, on 05 September 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

You can either balance the weapons, or you can balance using quirks.
Balancing using quirks is a strange thing. We now have the IS ERPPC that is inferior to Clan ERPPC, but on a select few chassis (BJ-3, VND-1R, CDA-3C, AWS-8Q and 9M), thanks to +50% quirks it is clearly superior to what the clans have.
Therefore you can use C-ERPPC on any clan mech and get good results, but you cannot use IS PPC on any mech you like with same efficiency. It certainly adds flavor to some mechs but is a nightmare to balance.

Your talking about balancing the faction equivalents of each weapon. I'm just talking about balancing the factions overall.

[burning wisky]

i can't stop laughing.......pls pls help...this System is sooooooo .... hahaha muhahahaha.
ok the funny think is ( what i think )
they want to bring the TTK down and Alphaboats
they looking to balance the weaponheat up and down ....cooldown up and down......
the answer of all that is the heatsystem....... the groundbase of that all this is the heatsystem in Mechwarrior


Enegy points ok , but why is it working with the 30 DAMAGE ?
And yes, we are running oure mechs really hot, with no penalty at this time and i think the cooldowneffect is to high.

Battletech rules are easy.
IDEAR
LIKE MECHWARRIOR to me

• 
  
  give us 1 point for the single heatsink 2 points on the double heatsink
  
• 
  
  headsink cooldown time is all your heatsinkpoints in 8,68 sec .
  Example
  if your mech have 18 double Heatsinks thats 36 cooldown points in 8,68 sec. that is 4,15 points every 1 sec.
  If your mech have 23 single Heatsinks thats 23 cooldown points in 8,68 sec. that is 2,69 points every 1 sec.
  
• 
  
  No heatpenalty for fire more Weaponsfrom the same TYP ( fire 2 AC 20 ) Ghostheat
  
• 
  
  the heatsystem we have is good working , but the values are wrong, the heat on the scala is wrong. (example PPC 10 heat and a mech with 10 single heatsinks, fire the weapon and you have ????? right 100 % but not in mechwarrior online. there you have 33 % something like this ????? how does is count ????

example,



Awesome
3 PPC = 3x 10 Heatpoints
speed max 54 kph
0 kph stand 0 Heatpoint
1- 40 kph walk 1 Heatpoint
41- 54 kph run 2 Heatpoint
18 single heatsinks + 10 single heatsinkin the engine = 28 Cooldownpoints in 8,68 sec. Timeline,
that mean that my mech can absorb 28 HEATPOINTS in 8,68 sec.
3,23 heatpoints in 1 sec.
( 10 single heatsink in the engin + 18 single heatsink ex. ) = 28 Cooldownpoints = 100 % Heatscala + a Overheatscala with 30 more points ( fix ), but be carefull if you need them, manage you cooldown or you get a penalty


from 5 points = minus 5 % movemant/ Torso slower/ ( image -, Targeting - or minimap disoder )
from 8 points = 10% chance to shutdown / Focus problens
from 12points = minus 10 % movemant/ Torso slower/ ( image -, Targeting - or minimap disoder )
from 15points = 15% chance to shutdown / Focus problens
from 18points = minus 15 % movemant/ Torso slower/ ( image -, Targeting - or minimap disoder )
from 21points = 35 % chance to shutdown / Focus problens
from 24points = minus 20 %movemant/ Torso slower/ ( image -, Targeting - or minimap disoder )
from 27points = minus 30 %moveman/ Torso slower/ ( image -, Targeting - or minimap disoder )
from 30points = 100% shutdown

see this not in rounds ....in livetime like we have now

If you run with the AWESOME and fire all 3 PPC ( Run 2 Heatpoints + ( 3xPPC ) 3x10 Heatpoints ) you have a heat of 32 Points ( Cooldownpoints 28 )... 32 Heatpoints – 28 Cooldownpoints = 4 you overheat a little bit with 4 points on the ALPHASHOOT. Nothing happends, you mech cooldown but you have after 8,68 sec. Now you run and shoot a second ALFA STRIKE befor cooldon to zero ,now you have 36 Heatpoints . 36 Heatpoints – 28 Cooldownpoints = 8 heatpoints

Overheat scala
5 points = minus 5 % movemant/ Torso slower
8 points = 10% chance to shutdown / Focus problens
Thats your penalty
Use the original Battletech rules and it works......

Edited by burning wisky, 07 September 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[Deathlike]

Not sure if this is new, but there is another ninja PTS patch available.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 09 September 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

Not sure if this is new, but there is another ninja PTS patch available.

Know what changed?

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 09 September 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Know what changed?

I'm sure if someone like Mcgral looked into the data, we could find out.

I don't care to search at this point.