46 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

davoodoo, on 04 September 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

You mean like ed erppc boats or gh laservomit...

and its not like tt didnt have something to deter energy boating
lets compare gauss at 12 tons, 2 tons of ammo, 1 dhs, 15 tons total and 6+2+2=10 slots total
1 erppc is 6 tons+8tons of dhs to make it heat neutral, so 14 tons total and 2+8x2=18 slots total
both at 15 dmg...
You will only go as far as slots allow you to which isnt much.

ofc lighter mechs would prefer energy over ballistics(like they doesnt already) because of 10 dhs and lightweight energy weapons.

And this really is the point. TT provided this level of balance because it took a degree of commitment to mount high-heat weapons. There aren't many mechs that can mount a sizable level of output in energy weapons AND stay cool doing it.

Stock Warhawk Prime, if you're still just firing PPCs, with 20 DHS still has heat cap of 40, takes a penalty of 20. It's not a shutdown, but it's penalized. 1 alpha and done. And then you gotta slow your fire or stop altogether for a few turns to dissipate the penalty, which you'd want to do because those penalties hurt. Those penatlies are what disincentivized carrying heat... much more than the fear of eventually shutting down.

If you implement a real heat system with real penalties, dipping into those penalties at all becomes a risk. And hot builds can't help but dip into those penalties. And this lets you put the reward back in hot builds like the Warhawk Prime.

If you adapt the TT system to MWO, it works the same.

It's like taking a huge chunk of the existing heat scale and penalizing accumulating heat there. And moreover, making it so you can't dissipate heat from that massive chunk if you're still putting out a fair bit of damage. This last part is probably the most important. Not only will you get tangible and meaningful penalties, but you'll stay in the penalty zone as long as you're pushing.

Right now, you just push to the point of shutting down, and then back off just enough to avoid doing so with the next volley, and the next. It's like sitting at 25 on the TT heat penalty scale all the time... something you simply couldn't do and survive in TT.

So imagine we put the real scale with real penalties into MWO. if you're sitting on the ragged edge of your max penalty scale, you'll be moving slower... can't acel or decel, can't turn worth a crap. We probably can't do ammo explosions because people hate randomness... but we can do other things... have your HUD fizzle out, lose targeting data. Make it so you can't lock targets, engage enemies at a distance accurately. Maybe you can still brawl with a few eyeballed shots.

At this point, players' fears are not, "Oh crap, I better slow down before I shut down," and more, "Oh crap, I can't see. And I can't turn, and I can't move. I can't fight. Better get out of here and cool off."

I guarantee you that this "soft cap" will have more impact on curbing damage output than any goofy, penalty-free "hard cap" you could put in the game.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 04 September 2016 - 12:35 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 04 September 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

and its not like tt didnt have something to deter energy boating
lets compare gauss at 12 tons, 2 tons of ammo, 1 dhs, 15 tons total and 6+2+2=10 slots total
1 erppc is 6 tons+8tons of dhs to make it heat neutral, so 14 tons total and 2+8x2=18 slots total
both at 15 dmg...

You are correct, but it really only affected assaults, and even then, mechs like the Hellstar and Awesome are pretty impressive mechs.

ScarecrowES, on 04 September 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

It's like sitting at 25 on the TT heat penalty scale all the time... something you simply couldn't do and survive in TT.

It's more like once you hit anything on the penalty scale, you are instantly shutdown in this game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 September 2016 - 12:57 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

It's more like once you hit anything on the penalty scale, you are instantly shutdown in this game.

Not quite. Remember we get the entire 30pts of the TT heat penalty scale added to the heat capacity of every mech in MWO, penalty free. The only consequence we get is the end one... arguably the least punishing overall in TT... shutdown. By the time you got to shutdown in TT, you were probably screwed anyway.

For most mechs, anything above, say 40-50% heat on MWO's scale would come with massive penalties and decreased dissipation rates in TT.

Imagine the difference that would make to MWO.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 04 September 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Not quite. Remember we get the entire 30pts of the TT heat penalty scale added to the heat capacity of every mech in MWO, penalty free.

For most mechs, anything above, say 40-50% heat on MWO's scale would come with massive penalties and decreased dissipation rates in TT.

Imagine the difference that would make to MWO.

There is a difference between MWO and TT heat mechanics though, MWO's goal of heat is to make it something that you actually have to manage in the game, not just the mechlab. Since this requires dissipation to work a bit differently (in that it never allows heat neutrality), heat capacity should not be expected to be the EXACT same as TT. Don't get me wrong, back before they nerfed heat generation quirks on energy boats and mechs like the Whale roamed the field as the biggest baddest mech, a heat cap nerf would've helped more than people want to admit, but you can easily lower it too far.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

You are correct, but it really only affected assaults, and even then, mechs like the Hellstar and Awesome are pretty impressive mechs.

I think that more firepower oriented heavies were affected too, like for example night gyr.

And anything lighter usually relied on energy and missiles.

As for awesome its 3 ppc, 30 dmg on 80 tonner, not an impressive firepower but at least it can fire at long range, its about all what you can expect from lvl1 tech though.
And hellstar yeah, mech which sacrificed pretty much everything to vent heat from 4 erppc beastly long range mech which is still being outclassed by things like kodiak or executioner up close.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 September 2016 - 02:51 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

There is a difference between MWO and TT heat mechanics though, MWO's goal of heat is to make it something that you actually have to manage in the game, not just the mechlab. Since this requires dissipation to work a bit differently (in that it never allows heat neutrality), heat capacity should not be expected to be the EXACT same as TT. Don't get me wrong, back before they nerfed heat generation quirks on energy boats and mechs like the Whale roamed the field as the biggest baddest mech, a heat cap nerf would've helped more than people want to admit, but you can easily lower it too far.

You realistically have to manage your heat in TT too. Moreso than in MWO, I'd argue. When you have to roll some dice at the end of every turn to see if your ammunition starts cooking off or note that in the next turn you can only move 1 hex instead of 3, you start to feel the pain of carrying heat. In MWO, you only really need to worry about things once that heat warning flashes on your HUD... until then, heat isn't even a factor in your combat decision making.

And that's a product of having a much higher unpenalized heat cap in MWO and a higher overall dissipation rate. That's a very easy set of problems to remedy now that PGI has actually done the coding on the dual-bar mechanic. We can actually set up the "dual-bar" TT heat system now.

The fact that it's a bit harder to be "heat neutral" in MWO as opposed to TT is by nature of it's cooldown rates vs dissipation rates. Technically the standard rate of dissipation for heat in MWO is slighly lower than in TT by virtue of its "sinks outside the engine only count for 1.5x capacity" deal... though it's effective rate of dissipation is much higher, because the entire bar (base capacity +30pts) dissipates at the same rate, while in TT that 30pts actually dissipates more slowly (and maybe not at all) if you're still using capacity in each turn. BUT... weapon cooldowns are much faster in MWO than in TT. Every weapon in TT has a 10-second cooldown.

Having weapons cycle in some cases 5x faster in MWO than in TT is the number one factor in an inability to be heat neutral. If weapons took 10 seconds to cycle, everyone would be in a heat-neutral mech in MWO. Builds in MWO, for the most part, run MUCH cooler than in TT, as players tend to optimize better for the type of combat pacing for this game as opposed to pen-and-paper.

[davoodoo]

Heat sinks in mwo were never adjusted for lowered cooldowns and still dissipated only 0.1heat/s despite ppc being able to fire once every 4s on live.

If you actually adjusted for cooldown and made single heat sinks dissipate 10/4=2.5 ; 0.1x2.5=0.25heat/s 10 heat sinks would be able to make single ppc heat neutral and 10 heat capacity from these heat sinks would be rather basic but still simulation of how heaat is dissipated in tt.

But since it isnt adjusted
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e252562816a899a
this absolute joke of 95 tonner firepower needs 23 dhs to cool off its weapons.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 September 2016 - 03:02 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 04 September 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Heat sinks in mwo were never adjusted for lowered cooldowns and still dissipated only 0.1heat/s despite ppc being able to fire once every 4s on live.

That's the point......there weren't supposed to be any *good* heat neutral builds in this game, which means even ballistic boats that ideally shouldn't ever be hot actually can be.

ScarecrowES, on 04 September 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

You realistically have to manage your heat in TT too. Moreso than in MWO, I'd argue.

Not really until you start taking serious damage, otherwise you are always firing what you can without hitting that first penalty at overheat of 5. This game makes it a constant which makes it a factor even in normal gameplay regardless of your damage.

ScarecrowES, on 04 September 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Having weapons cycle in some cases 5x faster in MWO than in TT is the number one factor in an inability to be heat neutral.

Only really bad weapons have recycle rates of 5x what they technically are in TT, most others like the AC20/PPC/Gauss are roughly 3x (if including modules) which is why the nerfing of cooldowns to roughly twice what they were in TT is something I fully support, but I don't support dissipation rates increasing to allow for a 2 ERPPC Hunchback to be heat neutral, there would be no benefit to mounting ballistics on mediums, ever.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 September 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

That's the point......there weren't supposed to be any *good* heat neutral builds in this game, which means even ballistic boats that ideally shouldn't ever be hot actually can be.


Not really until you start taking serious damage, otherwise you are always firing what you can without hitting that first penalty at overheat of 5. This game makes it a constant which makes it a factor even in normal gameplay regardless of your damage.


Only really bad weapons have recycle rates of 5x what they technically are in TT, most others like the AC20/PPC/Gauss are roughly 3x (if including modules) which is why the nerfing of cooldowns to roughly twice what they were in TT is something I fully support, but I don't support dissipation rates increasing to allow for a 2 ERPPC Hunchback to be heat neutral, there would be no benefit to mounting ballistics on mediums, ever.

I'm finding that using TT values for heat capacity and dissipation rates, while using MWO's stats for weapons, actually makes things quite a bit more balanced, and puts a check on builds that tend to run wild on the current system. The Kodiak-3 with 4x cUAC/10 gets an automatic reduction from about 5-6 double-taps before shutdown to about 3-4 double taps to shutdown - a 40% direct reduction in output over the base system with GH. Moreover, you're starting to see significant penalties applied after only 2 taps, which disincentivizes continuing to fire more than the looming shutdown does. Beyond that, you'd remain longer in that penalty zone due to the necessity of needing unused heat cap to dissipate penalty heat. As long as you keep using up ever last point of available heat, your penalty bar won't come down.

Effectively speaking, not only does the TT-adapted system limit output directly, it also limits it psychologically AND it lengthens the amount of time to cool down.

Meanwhile, the 4x cERPPC Warhawk isn't even touched over the base system... which shows that the TT system balances output much better than any current or proposed system does.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 05 September 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

The Kodiak-3 with 4x cUAC/10 gets an automatic reduction from about 5-6 double-taps before shutdown to about 3-4 double taps to shutdown - a 40% direct reduction in output over the base system with GH.

THe Kodiak 3 alphaing 4 UAC10s with double taps got maybe 2-3 full alphas in (that is 2-3 double taps) before getting heat capped with GH, and this is before all the ghost heat shenanigans around the UAC10s.

ScarecrowES, on 05 September 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

I'm finding that using TT values for heat capacity and dissipation rates, while using MWO's stats for weapons

No, this makes energy based weapons way too strong on the majority of mechs, it effectively allows them to be DPS weapons without any penalty which is the whole point of even mounting an AC2/5 in the first place.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 September 2016 - 05:03 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 September 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

THe Kodiak 3 alphaing 4 UAC10s with double taps got maybe 2-3 full alphas in (that is 2-3 double taps) before getting heat capped with GH, and this is before all the ghost heat shenanigans around the UAC10s.


No, this makes energy based weapons way too strong on the majority of mechs, it effectively allows them to be DPS weapons without any penalty which is the whole point of even mounting an AC2/5 in the first place.

I don't run the 4x cUAC/10 build myself, but looking at the numbers you exceed shutdown in 5-6 double-taps with GH. I'd have to run it in-game to be sure, but the numbers seem to imply more.

And I fail to see how energy-based weapons fair directly better. The Warhawk Prime mounts 28 DHS and it's still not enough to stay cool. That's 60 heat with 56 capacity. That's one alpha before shutdown. You can't alpha twice in a row. Same as the base heat system in MWO.

Mechs like the 2x cLPL and 5x cERML Timberwolf, at 24 DHS don't fair any better. That 50 heat for 48 capacity. That's one alpha before shutdown. You can't alpha twice in a row. I think this is true in the base system in MWO, even WITH GH. Except in this case, with the TT system, you're going to spend more time overheated if you keep trying to fight. So this puts a significant check on this build that doesn't exist under the current system. Technically, no such check even exists in ED either. The TT-adapted system curbs the sustainable effectiveness of this build better than the base system, GH, AND ED do... and it does it without doing anything to change how the player would actually want to use it.

Remember, in TT, you have to PAY to make energy builds work. In fact, you have to PAY to make all builds work. MWO's heat system throws that payment all out of whack. Sometimes your currency is worth more, sometimes less. This is the fundemental failing of MWO's heat system, and GH and ED are merely trying to overcome these failings.

Just putting the TT system in eliminates them entirely.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 05 September 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I don't run the 4x cUAC/10 build myself, but looking at the numbers you exceed shutdown in 5-6 double-taps with GH. I'd have to run it in-game to be sure, but the numbers seem to imply more.

Having played it in the tourney server, this is definitely not the case. 2-3 double taps max before you are heat capped.

ScarecrowES, on 05 September 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

And I fail to see how energy-based weapons fair directly better. The Warhawk Prime mounts 28 DHS and it's still not enough to stay cool.

Warhawk is an assault which happen to be the sole class where this wouldn't be a problem.

ScarecrowES, on 05 September 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Mechs like the 2x cLPL and 5x cERML Timberwolf, at 24 DHS don't fair any better.

Drop an ERML, done.
With this, the 3 ERPPC Timby would actually be better than the 2 ERPPC/Gauss Timby.
Energy boats become absolutely better because of their light weight when you take heat out of the equation.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 September 2016 - 07:03 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 September 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Energy boats become absolutely better because of their light weight when you take heat out of the equation.

So then putting in the TT system, which is more restrictive on heat that anything in MWO should further restrict energy builds, yeah?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 05 September 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

So then putting in the TT system, which is more restrictive on heat that anything in MWO should further restrict energy builds, yeah?

No, because it allows them to have DPS just on par with ballistics without requiring as much tonnage, space is only really a concern for assaults. What need do I have for Gauss when I have PPCs? Unless we plan on nerfing all energy cooldowns to the point that ballistics may be more competitive.

Honestly though, this ruins an interesting dynamic that has existed throughout MWO and existed in MW4, the balance between sustained and burst (and energy vs ballistics as well).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 September 2016 - 09:27 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

im ganna have to do some tests to find out how many DHS are needed to make 1 CERPPC Heat Neutral,
if you have to invest in a CERPPC+9DHS(15) to be Heat Neutral, then its balanced to CGauss(15(12+3Ammo)
after all in the PTS right now they have about the same Cooldown(6.8CERPPC)(6.7CGauss)
Edit- Spelling,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 05 September 2016 - 09:36 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 September 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

im ganna have to do some tests to find out how many DHS are needed to make 1 CERPPC Heat Neutral,
if you have to invest in a CERPPC+9DHS(15) to be Heat Neutral, then its balanced to CGauss(15(12+3Ammo)
after all in the PTS right now they have about the same Cooldown(6.8CERPPC)(6.7CGauss)
Edit- Spelling,

15 heat / 6.8 seconds = ~2.2 heat per second

True DHS dissipate 0.2 heat per second
Clan External DHS dissipate 0.15 heat persecond

10(0.20) + 2(0.15) = 2.3 heat per second

also

15(0.15) = 2.25 heat per second

So, assuming there are not quirks involved it takes the 10 engine DHS and 2 external DHS to overtake the heat of a cERPPC. It takes an additional 15 external DHS to make the second cERPPC heat neutral.

Of course, heat neutral is far beyond what is necessary.

[Kmieciu]

C-ERPPC now have more alpha, more DPS, better damage/heat efficiency, weigh less and take less slots than IS ERPPC.
There is nothing about them that needs testing.

Edited by Kmieciu, 05 September 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kmieciu, on 05 September 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

C-ERPPC now have more alpha, more DPS, better damage/heat efficiency, weigh less and take less slots than IS ERPPC.
There is nothing about them that needs testing.

then you have failed, you cant say you know how something feels if you dont test it out,
you may be supprized of what you may find out, that IS-PPCs are balanced to C-ER-PPCs,
Crits, Weight, and Damage arnt all that define a Weapon, the 7 second cool down does balance C-ER-PPCs,

[Pariah Devalis]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 September 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

then you have failed, you cant say you know how something feels if you dont test it out,
you may be supprized of what you may find out, that IS-PPCs are balanced to C-ER-PPCs,
Crits, Weight, and Damage arnt all that define a Weapon, the 7 second cool down does balance C-ER-PPCs,

In other words, "usability." Also, realistically, you won't be firing those ERPPC the very millisecond they come off cooldown, so being 0.2 higher in DPS is practically speaking irrelevant.

[Cyrilis]

from my personal point of view I strongly recommend to keep hands OFF damage and mechanic (splash damage) values for ALL PTS and LIVE servers. The weapon balance is good atm (for me at least) and if PGI wants to get good feedback on Power Draw, they should seriously not change various values...
Same applies for gauss !