404 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

DrxAbstract, on 06 September 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

You may as well accept the fact that regardless of any Mech's previous game iterations or "lore look", PGI's version is going to be a very condensed, compacted version thereof... Because reasons. I've no doubt that regardless of Alex's brilliant artistic talent, he has been given specific 'guidelines' by certain PGI senior staff within which he must work... So he's really doing the best he can with what he has. Just look at the Timberwolf and Mad Dog arms/legs - Wrong for ages. Only recently have the Legs been addressed for them (And hands for Mad Dog), but the arms are still a far cry from visually accurate no matter what variation you choose to source.

In all likelihood, the BSW is going to be a too-tall Medium with disproportionately long legs and a torso that looks like it got sent through a car crusher.

I'm still waiting for proper barrels on my Mad Dog and Warhawk. Any day now. They can't leave us with box barrels forever, right? Right?!?

[FLG 01]

DrxAbstract, on 06 September 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

You may as well accept the fact that regardless of any Mech's previous game iterations or "lore look", PGI's version is going to be a very condensed, compacted version thereof... Because reasons.

I think they were going for the very first artwork of the BSW:



(BT Compendium, 1994)

[Cyrilis]

RestosIII, on 06 September 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

Did someone say... Bushwacker?

[DrxAbstract]

FLG 01, on 06 September 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:

I think they were going for the very first artwork of the BSW:



(BT Compendium, 1994)

That's still squat and wide... Conceptual art presented is tall and... not wide. /shrug.

I love the Bushy, but I will also acknowledge MWO's version will do the original no justice... As they never have with unorthodox designs.

[JadePanther]

Red Shrike, on 06 September 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

For the same reason you don't see a lot of light tanks in World of Tanks.

well WG did remove my beloved T50-2 from WoT.. Of course that prolly had something to do with people like me. Who would get in one, and end up with friends on teamspeak on the oppsoing team cursing up a storm at me telling me to sit still.. and to quote one of them while i was out for a stroll "its like trying to hit a jackrabbit on crack!!!!"

[Alistair Winter]

Squat and wide mechs with chicken legs aren't easy to animate. Mechs that look cool on paper don't necessarily look cool in-game when you actually have to make them move organically without bobbing up and down, and the Bushwacker isn't like the Dire Wolf, which looks silly enough at 55 kph. The Bushwacker needs to move 100+ kph and still look good.

It can't look anything like this:

[Anunknownlurker]

Well, I am very happy to finally see the Bushwacker in game. Yes, it's nostalgia, I accept that. It was my chosen ride in MW4 and whilst I was aware even then it wasn't the best mech in the game, the way it played suited me; short, reasonably mobile and very, very tough. It was that toughness that made the mech for me; so many games were ended with my poor Bushie limping around the battlefield bits falling off it with one laser left in the CT; it was the honey badger of MW4.

Personally, I am not too worried about hardpoint locations - those are pretty much fixed by the design I'd say - but the one thing which surely MUST stay true to the old design is that it's got to be hard to kill.

Anyway, thanks PGI this will be the first money you've got from me since the Marauder

[RestosIII]

Jimmy DiGriz, on 06 September 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

Well, I am very happy to finally see the Bushwacker in game. Yes, it's nostalgia, I accept that. It was my chosen ride in MW4 and whilst I was aware even then it wasn't the best mech in the game, the way it played suited me; short, reasonably mobile and very, very tough. It was that toughness that made the mech for me; so many games were ended with my poor Bushie limping around the battlefield bits falling off it with one laser left in the CT; it was the honey badger of MW4.

Personally, I am not too worried about hardpoint locations - those are pretty much fixed by the design I'd say - but the one thing which surely MUST stay true to the old design is that it's got to be hard to kill.

Anyway, thanks PGI this will be the first money you've got from me since the Marauder

And then they give the Bushwacker negative structure quirks. Also, is your name by any chance based on "James Bolivar diGriz"?

[Xhaleon]

It absolutely cannot follow the super squat no-hips Bushwacker for the sake of gameplay consistency, but this particular design is all wrong. The pieces of the orthographic image we have show that it isn't just a bad angle that being used for the colored reveal image.

It is too tall and thin, its legs stand way too straight, the legs are way too bulky and cause it to be bottom heavy instead of top heavy, and while its arms are actually proportioned quite well they located at an odd place on the silhouette because of the aforementioned issues. It's actually sort of cute because it looks clumsy and it is tucking its arms inward, but that not really a compliment...

[Bishop Steiner]

Xhaleon, on 06 September 2016 - 11:08 PM, said:

It absolutely cannot follow the super squat no-hips Bushwacker for the sake of gameplay consistency, but this particular design is all wrong. The pieces of the orthographic image we have show that it isn't just a bad angle that being used for the colored reveal image.

It is too tall and thin, its legs stand way too straight, the legs are way too bulky and cause it to be bottom heavy instead of top heavy, and while its arms are actually proportioned quite well they located at an odd place on the silhouette because of the aforementioned issues. It's actually sort of cute because it looks clumsy and it is tucking its arms inward, but that not really a compliment...

Best of my knowledge, bushwacker always had hips.
http://www.sarna.net...cker_battle.jpg

[Anunknownlurker]

@Restoslll - yep, named after Slippery Jim; loved those books when I was younger.

It's going to be hard to see how the Bushwacker will fit in to the MWO meta; it'll be pretty under-gunned and a bit slow I guess. But there is an in-game precedent; whilst the Crab is maybe a bit mediocre, it is at least tough, so if all the Bushie ends up is a Crab with more armament options, I guess that'll keep me happy. Like you say, it'll be down to the quirks.

Adding to my previous post, the test for me will be if I can I clamp my jaws on an Atlas and hang on for grim death whilst bits of my mech, all my armour and most of my weapons, get blown off leaving me a machine gun to nibble away at his ankles!

[Xhaleon]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 September 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Best of my knowledge, bushwacker always had hips. http://www.sarna.net...cker_battle.jpg

Yeah I was referring to the black and white lineart. It is very messy though, maybe there's actually a pair of hips in there but that's typical of BT lineart of the time. The 3058 cover art you posted is what it should look closer to. It is actually standing pretty tall in that one though. The slimmer legs and larger torso/arm proportions helps to keep it from looking awkward.

MW3 and MW4 both had good renditions of the design.

[Anunknownlurker]

I would prefer it to be a bit sharper and more angular than the concept art; I bow down to Alex in most things, I am an insect to his high-flying eagle, but this concept looks a little too rounded and "organic" to me. Maybe it'll be sharpened up in the design process.

[DrxAbstract]

Alistair Winter, on 06 September 2016 - 10:58 PM, said:

Squat and wide mechs with chicken legs aren't easy to animate.

Absolutely untrue. You just need Animators that know how to animate. PGI cant animate squat and wide, as they've proven with the KGC. Proportionately dispensing organic movement among all body parts for a smooth gait at all speeds is a skill developed through experience and some research of living animals, refined by common sense and practicality.

The KGC, for example, should have much, much more respective hip horizontal movement and 'sway' to reduce the bouncing twerk-swagger it has. Watch some nature channel on flightless birds for gods sake; while running, the upper body is directionally focused on the objective, semi-rigid and compensatory while the lower body, hips and legs, move and adjust according to speed, direction and terrain... As if the two are halves are in complete juxtaposition yet comprising the same animal.

It doesnt matter if the legs and hips are flying, jerking and bouncing at 150KPH as long as the Torso remains steady and focused -- That's more reflective of natural body mechanics than what PGI animators have done or seem to be capable of.

[Alistair Winter]

DrxAbstract, on 06 September 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

Absolutely untrue. You just need Animators that know how to animate. PGI cant animate squat and wide, as they've proven with the KGC. Proportionately dispensing organic movement among all body parts for a smooth gait at all speeds is a skill developed through experience and some research of living animals, refined by common sense and practicality.

Alright, touché! It's the inevitable discussion with some aspects of MWO. What should be done vs what should be done when taking their skill level in mind. For example, should we replace Ghost Heat with some other solution? Theoretically, yes. In reality? Maybe Ghost heat is actually the best PGI can do. Should MWO allow mixed IS and Clan tech? Theoretically, that would add a lot of depth to the game. In reality? Uhhhh, maybe not.

[jss78]

Alistair Winter, on 06 September 2016 - 10:58 PM, said:

Squat and wide mechs with chicken legs aren't easy to animate. Mechs that look cool on paper don't necessarily look cool in-game when you actually have to make them move organically without bobbing up and down, and the Bushwacker isn't like the Dire Wolf, which looks silly enough at 55 kph. The Bushwacker needs to move 100+ kph and still look good.

They managed to make the Crab quite low, while making the walking animation look OK. Though if you look carefully, the Crab's walk is actually physically impossible, with the different leg segments forced into the same space when the knee is bent (or is it the ankle, goddamnit I'm a mechwarrior, not an ornithologist).

[Xhaleon]

jss78, on 06 September 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

They managed to make the Crab quite low, while making the walking animation look OK. Though if you look carefully, the Crab's walk is actually physically impossible, with the different leg segments forced into the same space when the knee is bent (or is it the ankle, goddamnit I'm a mechwarrior, not an ornithologist).

It follows the digitgrade design principle so those two joints in the middle are the knee and ankle, with the bottom most joint being the toes / balls of the feet. Does it actually clip into each other though? Could be movable armor panels there.

[DrxAbstract]

Alistair Winter, on 06 September 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

Alright, touché! It's the inevitable discussion with some aspects of MWO. What should be done vs what should be done when taking their skill level in mind. For example, should we replace Ghost Heat with some other solution? Theoretically, yes. In reality? Maybe Ghost heat is actually the best PGI can do. Should MWO allow mixed IS and Clan tech? Theoretically, that would add a lot of depth to the game. In reality? Uhhhh, maybe not.

Yes and no... Mixed tech adding depth? I'm on the fence with that one... It would completely invalidate IS LRMs, SSRMs, SRMs, Small Lasers/Small Pulses, LB-10X, XL/STD Engines and Heat Sinks. There would be some interesting iterations of mixed builds though... Ultimately, I feel it would decrease weapon variety... But at the same time increase build diversity, especially among certain IS Mechs that are, by the nature of available IS weapons, sub par... Seems like a weapon and mech balance issue resolved via weapon balancing rather than an open season approach.

[Mazzyplz]

wow what is this a mech i am actually excited about?!?!

why isn't the launcher on the shoulder a more clear X shape though


PS> WHOA is that the paintjob from the cartoon!?!

Edited by Mazzyplz, 07 September 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

btw if you are waiting for a light mech don't ask for flea... better make them give us the cougar
Rawr...


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cougar
looks way better and the stock loadout is 2LPL + 2lrm10