183 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

Adding such a system for integrating QP into FP... points awarded to your faction for your performance... was something I had been pushing for from way back. With new QP modes in FP, I hope they're using some sort of system to ensure these matches still count. I haven't seen the pod cast to know what the specific map changes are.

I can't wait to see the quickplay modes/maps count for like, 1/4th of the rewards of a normal FW match for "Paulconomy" reasons.

[ScarecrowES]

RestosIII, on 08 September 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

I can't wait to see the quickplay modes/maps count for like, 1/4th of the rewards of a normal FW match for "Paulconomy" reasons.

1/4? That seems generous by Paul's standards. Expect further reductions in rewards because you did not have to queue as long as the folks playing Invasion. Not fair to them not to get compensated for the longer wait time.

[Kangarad]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

None of that makes any sense. I will refer you to the Battlefield series, which originated and perfected the modern Conquest game mode MWO tries to ape - which directly refutes every point you've just tried to make.

where does it? nowhere. you are not walking over there on foot while the rest of your team has bikes. you take the chopper or respawn on them. you are also not slower than your teammates at any point.

I shall reffer you to the battlefield series. if you could have 10% more firerate and 20% more heatlh... would you like to sprint/drive and fly at 20% of the speed of your teammates and enemys?

Edited by Kangarad, 08 September 2016 - 08:16 AM.

[Orville Righteous]

WarHippy, on 08 September 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

If they really add any form of respawn to assault or other quick play modes I am probably done with this game.

They were just talking about adding it to Faction Play. They went on a tangent talking about if it would make sense in QP, but that was just a tangent. The idea was to add QP maps and mode to FP. The existing FP maps and modes would still be there. The example they gave was starting on QP maps but then as the tug of war progressed, the end would be the normal FP maps.

[WarHippy]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Of course. They ARE removing it though, this change was done to get it to be not utterly broken for the weekend event. They're replacing it with ECM blackouts.

Even the limited dropship respawn? 4 of your mechs? I hate respawn, but the invasion style dropship system really gets the best of both worlds.

Well as I said I would "probably" be done. The limited dropship respawn is somewhat more tolerable, but I would rather not have that at all. When I am playing QP I want quick play, and I want my actions to have consequences beyond saying oh well I have 3 more mechs in the hanger to try again with. It just isn't good game play to me because it still creates bad behavior and waters down the game in my opinion.

[ScarecrowES]

Kangarad, on 08 September 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

where does it? nowhere. you are not walking over there on foot while the rest of your team has bikes. you take the chopper or respawn on them. you are also not slower than your teammates at any point.

I shall reffer you to the battlefield series. if you could have 10% more firerate and 20% more heatlh... would you like to sprint/drive and fly at 20% of the speed of your teammates and enemys?

Still makes no sense.

You're basically saying the mode won't work because tanks are slower than helicopters.

The reality is that having vehicles of different speeds is a non issue in a respawn game.

Moreover, you said that respawns games have smaller maps and discourage teamwork. Again, I'd point you to the game that MWO steals it's modes from and show you that's not true. BF maps are proportionately larger than MWO maps. Maybe even absolutely larger. And I don't think anyone would say BF discourages team play.

[Wintersdark]

WarHippy, on 08 September 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well as I said I would "probably" be done. The limited dropship respawn is somewhat more tolerable, but I would rather not have that at all. When I am playing QP I want quick play, and I want my actions to have consequences beyond saying oh well I have 3 more mechs in the hanger to try again with. It just isn't good game play to me because it still creates bad behavior and waters down the game in my opinion.

Drop ship mode doesn't do that, though. As you only have your four mechs, your actions still have consequences, and ones to you directly unlike those god awful ticket systems where someone can just meet away and use the team's tickets.

On the other hand, the advantage of respawn game modes is that the context of the mode becomes more important. Conquest, for example: you cannot ignore the caps, as 48 mechs take a fair bit longer to kill, and an early kill lead doesn't snowball instantly.

I do hate respawns under normal circumstances. For your death to be awesome, it needs to be a sacrifice, a loss, or else it's meaningless and stupid, like individual deaths in PlanetSide 2.

But we have Dropship mode in FP now, and it works well. It doesn't make people throw away mechs or not care about dying. It literally gets the best from respawns and single life play without the disadvantages, and it's presented in a way that's easy to take in terms of immersion.

[WarHippy]

Orville Righteous, on 08 September 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

They were just talking about adding it to Faction Play. They went on a tangent talking about if it would make sense in QP, but that was just a tangent. The idea was to add QP maps and mode to FP. The existing FP maps and modes would still be there. The example they gave was starting on QP maps but then as the tug of war progressed, the end would be the normal FP maps.

If they keep it there then fine whatever, but some of the things I have seen indicate that if it went over well in FW they might add it to the regular QP modes which is where I take issue. I actually like FW for the most part, but I don't want to see it watered down too much, nor do I want some strange hybrid between FW and QP that results in both being less than they were(if that is even possible).

[Mystere]

BLOOD WOLF, on 08 September 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

I think the leaderboards were something that was asked for. There were a few threads that discussed a leaderboard option being added and kinda how other games do it. That's from what i remember anyways, I never cared for them personally.

And which is why I think at least half of the problems with MWO can be traced back to the player base. Of course, PGI gets the rest of the blame for listening to -- and worse, implementing -- a stupid idea.

[Wintersdark]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

1/4? That seems generous by Paul's standards. Expect further reductions in rewards because you did not have to queue as long as the folks playing Invasion. Not fair to them not to get compensated for the longer wait time.

Agreed with regards to Paulconomy, because he hates people winning anything.

However, you won't be queueing for invasion, or for QP style maps. It'll be a tug o war system, like how scouting works, with a progression of game modes from the QP modes to invasion for the last (iirc) 20%.

This means that waits should be WAY lower, no more 30 minute waits. (Combined with the bucket condensing)

Also, they're revamping the whole reward system after this goes live - they discussed that as well, but wanted to get the system live asap rather than delaying it longer for the new rewards system.

[Mystere]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Of course. They ARE removing it though, this change was done to get it to be not utterly broken for the weekend event. They're replacing it with ECM blackouts.

Which again leads to a whole lot of wasted effort. time, and other very limited resources. Instead of removing the Long Tom, why not add to it. In other words, why not add more modes that allow factions to attain one or more of the following:

• artillery superiority (i.e. Long Toms)
  
• air superiority
  
• intelligence/information superiority (e.g. ECM blalckouts)

Sigh! It's as if both the developers and much of the player base suffer from a severe case of one-dimensional thinking. So much for a "thinking person's" shooter.


What the heck. **** it! **** it all! **** everyone! Just shut down this goddamed game.

RestosIII, on 08 September 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

I can't wait to see the quickplay modes/maps count for like, 1/4th of the rewards of a normal FW match for "Paulconomy" reasons.

Well, if that happens, all I can really say is ...

**** it! **** it all! **** everyone! Just shut down this goddamed game.

Edited by Mystere, 08 September 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Kangarad]

ScarecrowES, on 08 September 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Still makes no sense.

You're basically saying the mode won't work because tanks are slower than helicopters.

The reality is that having vehicles of different speeds is a non issue in a respawn game.

Moreover, you said that respawns games have smaller maps and discourage teamwork. Again, I'd point you to the game that MWO steals it's modes from and show you that's not true. BF maps are proportionately larger than MWO maps. Maybe even absolutely larger. And I don't think anyone would say BF discourages team play.

a respawn game of 64 vs 64... this is 12 v12 where not being alive has a larger impact on the overall battle.

also you can heal/repair yourself. its not like you have to respawn.

Edited by Kangarad, 08 September 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[WarHippy]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Drop ship mode doesn't do that, though. As you only have your four mechs, your actions still have consequences, and ones to you directly unlike those god awful ticket systems where someone can just meet away and use the team's tickets.

Depends on the mindset. Those first 3 mechs for a lot of people will end up being throwaways. You will still have people that suicide rush tag who they can with a little damage for assists and die quickly. The difference is that at least with one life for each player you only have to take down one slightly damaged mech per person instead of one slightly damaged mech and his 3 pristine backup mechs. Like I said though it is more tolerable than those other versions of respawn, but it still isn't ideal.

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

On the other hand, the advantage of respawn game modes is that the context of the mode becomes more important. Conquest, for example: you cannot ignore the caps, as 48 mechs take a fair bit longer to kill, and an early kill lead doesn't snowball instantly.

There are other ways to put more focus on objectives without adding respawn which I have talked about in the past, but the problem is it requires work and patience to get it right(something unfortunately PGI does not excel at). I will also point out that Counter-Strike works very well with single lives and objectives so it isn't like its impossible to do.

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

But we have Dropship mode in FP now, and it works well. It doesn't make people throw away mechs or not care about dying. It literally gets the best from respawns and single life play without the disadvantages, and it's presented in a way that's easy to take in terms of immersion.

That is because the few people still playing FW are the ones that actually care about it, but you start adding in the unwashed masses and you are going to start seeing more of the negative behavior. As for immersion getting killed on the battlefield and suddenly appearing in a new mech on a dropship isn't exactly what I would call immersive.

[Wintersdark]

WarHippy, on 08 September 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Depends on the mindset. Those first 3 mechs for a lot of people will end up being throwaways. You will still have people that suicide rush tag who they can with a little damage for assists and die quickly. The difference is that at least with one life for each player you only have to take down one slightly damaged mech per person instead of one slightly damaged mech and his 3 pristine backup mechs. Like I said though it is more tolerable than those other versions of respawn, but it still isn't ideal.

There are other ways to put more focus on objectives without adding respawn which I have talked about in the past, but the problem is it requires work and patience to get it right(something unfortunately PGI does not excel at). I will also point out that Counter-Strike works very well with single lives and objectives so it isn't like its impossible to do.

That is because the few people still playing FW are the ones that actually care about it, but you start adding in the unwashed masses and you are going to start seeing more of the negative behavior. As for immersion getting killed on the battlefield and suddenly appearing in a new mech on a dropship isn't exactly what I would call immersive.

Except that's not the case. Even from the very start, and through the Tukayyid events when we had the "unwashed masses" in FP, those mechs weren't treated as throw aways. Now, I'm sure some will - but those some are the same some who will treat whole quickplay matches as throw aways right now.

We have LOTS of experience with drop ship limited respawns, and it does work without creating the negative aspects of standard respawn systems.

As for immersion; you're not killed on the battlefield. Yeah; it's abstracted, but ejection is a thing, and there's the delay between death and another dropship bringing reinforcements.

Again, I get all your arguments, I do. I hate respawn PvP games - I despise them, and play absolutely none of them as a result. I hate them because of how the lack of consequence to the player directly (hence why team ticket respawn systems don't prevent it) leads to players throwing lives away, without the awesomeness that a direct consequence system has, where it's personal sacrifice to do that. But there are benefits to respawns in terms of game modes, and you need to look at the whole thing objectively and not reactively to see those benefits. Now, IMHO, those benefits strictly do not outweigh the disadvantages of open respawn, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

The limited dropship respawn we have in the game right now, that we've got a year+ of experience with, it doesn't bring a lot of those disadvantages, but it DOES bring some advantages.

---

Anyways, it doesn't matter. This is all totally theoretical, and wholly under the "maybe at some time in the future" umbrella, and definitely not something to worry about now. It's only a potential future if and only if these maps and modes play out better with drop ship respawn in FP than they do in Quick Play. If it creates negative behavior, then QP stays the same.

No sense worrying about it now, though - that's a long, long time down the road, after we've seen it in practice for a good long time.

[WarHippy]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Except that's not the case. Even from the very start, and through the Tukayyid events when we had the "unwashed masses" in FP, those mechs weren't treated as throw aways. Now, I'm sure some will - but those some are the same some who will treat whole quickplay matches as throw aways right now.

We have LOTS of experience with drop ship limited respawns, and it does work without creating the negative aspects of standard respawn systems.

Every time I play in FW I see it and is part of the reason I don't play it much. Adding more people will just increase the likelihood of it as will the shorter search times. 30 minutes to find a match tends to make people try a little harder to make the most of it when they finally get a match. Between shorter queues, more random players, and less reason for factions and faction pride to exist I have little doubt it will be a much more negative experience than now. I will remain skeptical without some serious proof beyond "it will be the best of both worlds".

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

As for immersion; you're not killed on the battlefield. Yeah; it's abstracted, but ejection is a thing, and there's the delay between death and another dropship bringing reinforcements.

30 seconds of delay does not immersion make.

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Again, I get all your arguments, I do. I hate respawn PvP games - I despise them, and play absolutely none of them as a result. I hate them because of how the lack of consequence to the player directly (hence why team ticket respawn systems don't prevent it) leads to players throwing lives away, without the awesomeness that a direct consequence system has, where it's personal sacrifice to do that. But there are benefits to respawns in terms of game modes, and you need to look at the whole thing objectively and not reactively to see those benefits. Now, IMHO, those benefits strictly do not outweigh the disadvantages of open respawn, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

You are more optimistic than I am in regard to respawn in this game. Even if dropship mode is more or less acceptable it will forever be the foot in the door for more and more expansion of a bad idea. The thing is I do play some respawn games and enjoy them, but they are very shallow and mindless fun, but they are not the kind of game I want this to be.

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

The limited dropship respawn we have in the game right now, that we've got a year+ of experience with, it doesn't bring a lot of those disadvantages, but it DOES bring some advantages.

Some advantages yes, but I still have little hope those will make up for potential problems that haven't been fully seen yet.

---

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Anyways, it doesn't matter. This is all totally theoretical, and wholly under the "maybe at some time in the future" umbrella, and definitely not something to worry about now. It's only a potential future if and only if these maps and modes play out better with drop ship respawn in FP than they do in Quick Play. If it creates negative behavior, then QP stays the same.

No sense worrying about it now, though - that's a long, long time down the road, after we've seen it in practice for a good long time.

Agreed, which is why I said if they add it I will probably be done with the game. We will just have to see what happens, but at the moment I am less than enthused.

[Hotthedd]

So...
There will be the single life QP matches, and dropship QP matches that count towards FP, and "regular" FP matches?

It sounds like there will be no point in single life QP matches at all.

If that is the case, MW:O has gone full CoDtard.

[Malleus011]

MischiefSC has it right. They're giving up on CW and any meaningful faction warfare; their moves now are minimal effort activities designed to manage the decline of the title.

They should remove 'A Battletech Game' from the top of the page, it isn't. Things will not improve, the game will not get better, it will only get smaller and deteriorate. I think it's time I was going; it's obvious that players like me aren't wanted by this developer.

I'm counting on Bishop Steiner to turn out the lights in the forums, as he'll be the last grognard out.

[Wintersdark]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

So...
There will be the single life QP matches, and dropship QP matches that count towards FP, and "regular" FP matches?

It sounds like there will be no point in single life QP matches at all.

If that is the case, MW:O has gone full CoDtard.

What? No.

I don't understand why this is so confusing for people.

FP is still FP, they're just adding the regular game modes to it in addition to invasion and counter attack. So now there will be 6 12v12 game modes instead of 2. They will feature dropship respawns as per Invasion because they all need to work together. Well, and scouting, but that's a separate queue. The 6 main game modes will share a queue in FP, the main planetary conquest queue.

[C E Dwyer]

Sean Lang, on 07 September 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

We are sitting down and chatting with Russ & Derek about the changes coming to Faction Play, as a result from the last Round Table, come join in live!

http://twitch.tv/ngngtv

All I get is Acrazyhippie playing mechwarrior from this link

armyunit, on 07 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

They are literally in the process of remaking assault right now, give them a break.

yes badly

[Besh]

Cathy, on 08 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

All I get is Acrazyhippie playing mechwarrior from this link

That Link was to watch it live on twitch I think .

Watch it on youtube.

Edited by Besh, 08 September 2016 - 10:33 AM.